[SPEAKER_03]: I'm Julie Kraftcheck, and I'm U.S.U.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the Psychology of Relationships.
[SPEAKER_03]: We talk a lot about love, how to find it, how to keep it, but not nearly enough about how to grow within it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Because the truth is, love isn't something that just happens to us.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not just a feeling.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a skill we have to practice.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's built in the moments you choose growth over pride, empathy over distance, and understanding over the need to be right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Today, we're diving into the psychology of relationships through the lens of self-awareness, attachment, and emotional growth, with Diego Perez that are known as young Pueblo, the New York Times bestselling author behind inward clarity and connection, lighter, the way forward, and how to love better.
[SPEAKER_03]: Drawing from mindfulness and modern psychology,
[SPEAKER_03]: Young Pueblo shows us our nervous systems, attachment styles, and emotional regulation patterns shape the way we connect.
[SPEAKER_03]: How our unhealed parts seek safety and how true intimacy begins only when both people take responsibility for their own growth because real love isn't about perfection.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about two people committed to their own healing.
[SPEAKER_03]: showing up with awareness and choosing to evolve together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love will bring you face-to-face with the parts of yourself you rather avoid, your insecurities, your defenses, your need for control.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's about staying curious when your partner's triggers collide with your own.
[SPEAKER_03]: The couples who make it aren't the ones who've never fight or who just click.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the couples who take accountability for their own growth, regulate their emotions.
[SPEAKER_03]: and continuously show up with compassion even during the harder seasons.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this episode will put all of this into perspective.
[SPEAKER_03]: Remember to go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating, five stars please, and review.
[SPEAKER_03]: And better yet comment with what you learned from this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the psychology of relationships and you're listening to an episode that just might change the way you show up for love.
[SPEAKER_03]: Enjoy!
[SPEAKER_03]: Dreams really do come true, Diego.
[SPEAKER_03]: You've stepped out of my dreams.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for being a guest, but honestly, if you look through my Instagram history, you are my most shared account.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that's probably true for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_03]: You are.
[SPEAKER_03]: such a prolific writer and you just have this way with words that just talks to my inner most self.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how you do it, but it's magical to witness your work and we are so grateful to have you on our show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thank you and thank you for sharing it's so interesting because like it really takes a village to like,
[SPEAKER_01]: make something, you know, anything just like pop up to the surface of that more people can see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the sharing goes a long way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some super super grateful.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the whole point is to bring value.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we love that we have a whole book to discuss that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not even just the bite size.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we got it everywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're excited to get into your new book how to love better the path to deeper connection through growth kindness and compassion.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you start out the book saying these are the biggest green flags.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think first of all it's refreshing that we start with green flags and not red flags.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I guess in your opinion why are these the three things to look out for?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think they're really foundational in that, like, we don't realize often with proximity, like, who never we're in close contact with, that that person, whether we're in a relationship with them or not, it could be a roommate, it could be family members, they're going to see the best of us and the worst of us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are times that the person that we're in proximity with, we kind of end up because we feel so comfortable with them, they see the worst of us very often, so it's a really important reminder to like come forward with kindness, like sweetness like that you're still trying to like, you know bring that gentleness to the day and when you're interacting with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then there's the element of growth where a relationship, if an individual has the humility to know that they have a lot to learn and that they're going to continue needing to develop their emotional skill set to be able to commune with you, to be in relationship with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's probably the biggest green flag is like, you know, you can be in very different stages of your growth or have very different tool sets, but the fact that they're even open to growth, then that means that they have the potential to move forward with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the last element of compassion, that one feels so important and it's a very specific type of compassion where you want to be with a partner who can step outside of their own perspective to be able to see your perspective.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's like one of the biggest gifts that you can give to really to anyone to help them feel seen, you really need to be able to not just listen selflessly, but pull yourself out of that perspective, put yourself in their shoes so that you can really see where they're coming from.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you think a relationship can still work without having this trifecta?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, my relationship is a sign of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we like, my wife and I when we got together, like, our relationship was a hurricane.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, it really felt like a hurricane where we were just so in love, but we did not know how to care for each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: We did not know how to treat each other well.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't know self-awareness, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: No emotional maturity.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just like hard because we did love each other, but we didn't know how to care for each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had to like learn that over time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think yeah, relationships like a lot of them start really bumpy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where do you think like the gaps started to reveal themselves in your relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like maybe what are some examples that you were like, okay, we need to do things differently.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, the clearest one was the constant blame game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I felt like we were just in this like mode of, you know, as soon as I would feel any tension arise, my mind was trying to figure out how it was her fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was trying to do the same thing where it was like if she felt tension, she would try to, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: go into her mind and figure out how can I reason out why this is his fault.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was blatantly just as lack of self-awareness on both of our parts.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would realize that we were fighting pretty endlessly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it wasn't until we started meditating where that switch slowly started happening where it was like, oh, actually, I just don't feel good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mind is making me jump
[SPEAKER_01]: to be able to blame this on you in some way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was quite interesting because of course we still make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there are times when I say something and I should apologize or she said something and she should apologize.
[SPEAKER_01]: But a lot of the time we were just trying to project our tension onto each other and having that self-awareness really decreased a lot of the arguments by a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: I went to see your conversation with Adrian Mishler in LA and I remember you've talked about this in previous interviews as well that the possum meditation really saved you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you kind of explain what type of meditation that is and then how are you and your wife both able to start practicing?
[SPEAKER_01]: So Vapassana for us, I mean, we both felt like intuitively called to it, like a friend of ours did the course first and he's a really close friend of mine and seeing the sort of drastic change where, you know, this was somebody that I used to like party with all the time and
[SPEAKER_01]: just like be really wild with and then after he goes to a chorus he writes to me and a few other friends and it's just like talking about love, compassion and goodwill and how important these things are and like that's what life is really about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wish simultaneously shocked and also new like I wanted to check this out and try it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But pasta literally means seeing reality as it is and it's a style of meditation that originates from the Buddhist teaching and you
[SPEAKER_01]: you go to these silent, 10-day retreats that's how it starts off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we spend the first three days observing the breath and then you spend the last seven days feeling the body.
[SPEAKER_01]: And through that, you start learning about this great truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: It spans the whole arc of the universe, this truth of impermanence that everything is always changing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that was like a big, big, big sort of, it felt like the relationship my wife and I had,
[SPEAKER_01]: before Vapasana in the one after, it was like two different chapters of the book because our problem in the initial, you know, first half was attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like, I really, really, I'm craving for you to exist in a very particular way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm craving for a relationship to exist in a very particular way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And over time, meditating,
[SPEAKER_01]: it really felt like we were better learning that truth of impermanence and now as I've been learning like impermanence and embracing change is actually the direct opposite of attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I created a lot of flexibility for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that to be was one of like that light bulb moments in your book around attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to dive into that like even deeper as we keep going.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you think the meditation like helps with your own self-awareness, which in turn help the relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the meditating really helps me start feeling when there was tension in my mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like oblivious to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the tension was always related to some attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm hanging on to this, like I'm very upset about this and even though it happened yesterday or the day before or could be craving for something in this particular day to happen in a certain way, I could literally feel that tension and then I would be able to reflect afterwards and realize, like, okay, do I really need to be holding on to something so tightly that is so ephemeral?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, do I really need all the pieces of the puzzle to land in a specific way every day?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I got to see how clearly, you know, I was the opposite of adaptable in the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I was just so rigid in my sense of identity and my sense of like how was showing up in the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So being aware of my own attachments, helped me start that slow process of letting go, that slow process of instead of wanting things to happen in a certain way, being open to communication, being open to having longer conversations.
[SPEAKER_01]: having a better idea of how valuable it is to support my partner's happiness and support her freedom and vice versa because we were both dealing with the same things.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like two rocks smashing up against each other and now our relationship is more so like we're two rivers flowing alongside each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can hear some listeners saying, you know, when you're first in a relationship, it's blissful and you're in love and you just loving each other is enough at a some point everybody comes to this crossroads of, oh, they're it's conflict.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: We need to work through some of these issues.
[SPEAKER_03]: But how do you and I've had a lot of friends ask this like, I'm ready to take that next step of growth?
[SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's meditation, maybe it's counseling, but my partner isn't necessarily there yet.
[SPEAKER_03]: Who is the one leading in your relationship and then how is the leader able to get the other person on board?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we were both leading at different times.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like I was the first one to dip my toe into Vapassana and the first course I did was the summer of 2012 and then Sarah did her first course in March of 2013.
[SPEAKER_01]: She had to wait because she had work conflicts that kept coming up.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had another moment where I'm the one who started meditating daily in March of 2015.
[SPEAKER_01]: I started meditating two hours a day and she started meditating two hours a day
[SPEAKER_01]: So a year later, but then there were other moments where, like, we both didn't, like, smoking or drinking, but I was so habituated to it, like, so, like, part of the culture with being around friends, but she had the inner strength that she was like, I'm done with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had moments where I had like a back and forth and, you know, would stop for a little while and then pick it up again and then realize I really don't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I re-gathered my strength to stop.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think over time, you know, I think that's been one of the
[SPEAKER_01]: Really nice parts of relationship is like understanding that we're not going to be moving at the same speed and we need to respect that And even though we want to go in the same direction, we both have the same goals like it was easier for me to start meditating two hours a day But it was easier for her to stop doing intoxicants even though we both really cared about that and then having the probably the hardest parts is like just acceptance just like accepting, okay This is where the person is
[SPEAKER_01]: I love them, I know where they want to go, but I also know that I can't force them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's been a big help.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is definitely a hard truth.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had to learn in my relationship to my fiance, just start a guard journey into that next stage, but like we're not on the same page at the exact same time, but we're moving in the same direction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was hard for me at first because of that attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like I had this like rigid view of like how things would progress and when it wasn't like a hundred percent on plan It did kind of throw me like how do you help people like let go of that in the sense of Recognizing that like it's okay if you're not a hundred percent aligned But also not to the end that like you're staying situation chips or bad relationships that you're like never gonna be a lot because there's a big difference
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, you know, it's funny because there's all these other points in relation to that that are popping up into my head now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think part of the struggle is that we have these strong hunter gatherer mentalities and we're like, we want to be part of the herd.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and we want to move lockstep with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the hard things my wife and I had to learn is like,
[SPEAKER_01]: we're so different like we're so different from each other like down to like we don't even eat the same things because her body needs different nourishment than my body she has to have her three meals a day to be able to feel very strong if I eat three meals a day I feel very weak in sluggish like I have to have two meals a day or one meal a day but like that took literally years years to learn that like
[SPEAKER_01]: we don't have to cook together every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to eat the same things every time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, even down to the way we exercise, the way my body feels strong is very different from how she feels strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't mean that we're losing each other, what it actually means is that we're supporting each other's freedom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I want you to live your best, most optimal life and our commitments keep us together.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our commitments make it so that we have the foundation for us to build a home together, but that doesn't mean that we have to be exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a hard truth to swallow because it counteracts that survival mode that's like, I want to be with people who think the same, do the same, and look the same all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree, but what about the people that are hearing this?
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, what's that line though, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Of like, you know, because we're not going to say like, stay with the person that never gives you anything, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So like, what to you is kind of like a good way to decipher like, what's natural and actually human versus just not a good situation?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we literally just had this conversation with a friend the other day who she was in a relationship with someone stopped and started dating them again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the moment she started dating them, it was, you know, lasted for a few months, the second time around.
[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as it started, she was upset, the whole time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the whole, like, two months, like she was just really upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's talking to us about it to my wife and I.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, just count the times like count the times that you've been happy and count the times that you've been upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, dude, you've been like so irritable for the past two, three months that it's almost hard to be around you because like, I'm not fighting you.
[SPEAKER_01]: This tension is so big inside you that it's spreading out to your other relationships that there are so many moments where you're just in tension, in conflict, then something's not right.
[SPEAKER_01]: there should be moments of joy like relationships are not meant to be easy all the time but there should be a certain degree of ease enjoy their mixed in with challenges but if it's just a constant you know going from one down moment to another down moment to another down moment yeah something's not right
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think people stay in that because we think relationships are meant to be hard, that's what we keep hearing.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we think these are growing pains.
[SPEAKER_03]: And one of my favorite quotes from you is the right connections will increase your power, not your pain.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's such a simply put statement.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's hard for me is how do I know that these are growing pains we need to work through to get to the other side where we feel more empowered?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or are we starting at a deficit already?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: The measurement too could be like, there are going to be challenges, but is there a resolution from the challenge?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think there are times where you just keep hitting up against a wall and sometimes the wall isn't really between like you and the person.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's between them and themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's like something big has not been healed.
[SPEAKER_01]: so that you can't really close that distance and even though the two of you are trying, it's really a conversation between them and themselves or you and yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's like, if you're coming up and facing these challenges, even if it doesn't get resolved in one argument or one discussion, but you try and you do see some results, then you're going in the right direction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think people talk to you the clearest, most honest version of themselves is in their actions.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you see changes in the actions,
[SPEAKER_01]: if it's just stuck, if you're hitting a wall, then you're not really going anywhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one of the hardest things that we hear from people is like the conflicting advice of like relationships are supposed to be easy and then relationships are hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: They take work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So people are like, ah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like if I have the right thing, what is your take on those statements overall and like what about connection?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like is that enough on its
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, especially when it comes to these interpersonal profound moments that primarily have an impact on you, like these big decisions that you make like, should I stay with my partner, should I not stay with them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should I date this person?
[SPEAKER_01]: Should I not?
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to listen to yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: The point of my book, the point of your book, like people who write are trustworthy when they're not just like these are the answers.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like no.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is something for you to reflect on.
[SPEAKER_01]: and hopefully you can come to an answer for yourself as opposed to like these are the five steps of letting go and this is the only way that you can let go or this is the only way to be happy in your relationship now like that's nonsense like the answer that you're looking for you'll find it when you close your eyes you check in with your nervous system you check in with your intuition you check in with your values and then you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what am I going to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's clear, but part of that is like doubling down really deeply on being honest with yourself because there's so much stuff out there like the wellness world is so big now self-help or all the so big that it's just you're going to get conflicting things and sometimes yes like your relationship will go through periods where it's so easy so joyful so fun other times it's really hard you can pick up different advice for different moments to be able to help you get through.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's just so much noise and this is kind of what we think is contributing to what we're calling the love crisis, which is actually the basis for our book where people are giving up on love because they know how hard relationships are and how much they have to work.
[SPEAKER_03]: at these connections and even just a dating part is already hard enough.
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess my request from you is what's so great about relationships for the people who are like, why do I even want to participate in dating?
[SPEAKER_03]: Everybody talks about how their relationships are so hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: What is so great about relationships?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny because it's also underrated and less valued, but it's also so great to be single like there's such a value to being single and like you know being able to watch whatever you want to watch to just you know live your own life design your own life and move around the way you want to that's also like a great luxury and I think relationships is like there is a huge value to them and
[SPEAKER_01]: You definitely don't want to go into it because everyone else is doing it or that's what society expects from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's something that like should come from you and you're like checking it with yourself and you're like, Yeah, I do want to have a partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm open to moving through the ups and downs of life with another person and being not just in relation with someone, but like having a teammate, like someone that you're like building something with, but I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: We live in like a beautiful time like I've seen this happen over and over where like so many people are like happily single or so many people are like happily don't have kids are like so many people are like happily together But they never get married because they really don't like the idea of marriage to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like listen you can do whatever you want as long as you don't hurt people Yeah, that's my jam.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do you do you because like the world is wide and there's a lot of ways to feel fulfillment
[SPEAKER_01]: and if relationship is something that calls to you or if you just end up stumbling across a person is just like bringing out this like ethereal connection in you where it's like you're like two magnets then follow through and see what happens but I don't think everybody needs to be in relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's very assuring for people, but we also have people that know they want a relationship, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like they say like, I know I want this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know how to navigate a relationship if I was to be in one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like your whole book is about like loving well and how to love better.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you even take those first steps to, I guess, first of all, like look at love as a skill that you learn versus just being like something I fall into.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, especially in the beginnings, I think you need a mixture of like clarity and just the embracing of learning because like the three of us just met, you know, if we're all going to be friends like I don't know how to care for either of the two yet like that's going to take time to learn how to like really care for an individual that means like understanding their preferences understanding like
[SPEAKER_01]: especially if you're in deep connection with them, understanding their major trigger points or how to help them feel safe and these things are things that don't just happen overnight, but the real beginning point is clarity is like, if you really dig someone, let them know.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if you really care about them, like answer their text messages, like, don't play this mystery game because that's not going to get you anywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that happened with my wife and I we loved each other, but it took a long time to learn how to really care for each other.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's kind of this idea we grapple with all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's easy to fall in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's not easy to actively love someone.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think a lot of times we think the two are the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, we're in love.
[SPEAKER_03]: Everything will be fine.
[SPEAKER_03]: But to fall in love is that joyous, like, Disneyland ride.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then to actively love someone is the work that needs to be done.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the way we love
[SPEAKER_03]: is based on our old patterns.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you love talking about our patterns of behavior history.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I've shared this quote with Selma and my friends from yours taking a moment to figure out how you really feel instead of letting old patterns decide for you is one of the most authentic things you can do.
[SPEAKER_03]: Can you expand more around that?
[SPEAKER_03]: How our old behaviors can show up and what we can do about
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my jam.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love thinking about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was like one of the biggest points of personal development in my own journey where I could see clearly how my perception is just not fully trustworthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: People who think that their perception is reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just not true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your perception is your past.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your perception is layered very thickly with the big moments
[SPEAKER_01]: as a child growing up, and you have this lens of red, this lens of anger that when it used encounter something that is similar to what you experience in the past, that impulsive anger just keeps roaring up, and it could be with any other emotion, like some people gear towards anxiety, sadness, whatever it could be, and the only way to counteract it is to just intentionally slow down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Take a breath.
[SPEAKER_01]: and check in with yourself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: If my immediate impulse is to be reactive, is that going to help?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does this make sense in this situation?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it doesn't, how do you authentically want to show?
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you want to show up in a way that's aligned with the you that you're currently cultivating?
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think giving yourself that choice, like literally reclaiming your power, taking it back from the past and activating like who you actually want to be in the present moment, like that's how you really live life well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you have to be very careful with that first reaction.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I know like when I was going through some like paste discrepancy challenges with my partner, a lot of my past is what was coming through of like, you know, people have kind of left before like past romantic partners, yeah, and if someone's not 100% on the same page will that happen again, even though.
[SPEAKER_02]: The signs of the relationship were so different, but I could see the past creeping in and just the way I was thinking about things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess for people that are dealing with this, that they feel like, okay, I can recognize that the past and the way I'm processing is my own shit that I basically need to figure out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do you take those steps to start uncovering that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we live in a really special time, like we live in this time where like the world is super chaotic, super hard, big ups and downs, but we also live in a time where there's just a wide variety of tools available to people so that they can really engage with their inner world, like I really love meditating, but meditating is not necessarily for everyone, like there is, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, so many different types of therapy, so many different forms of psychiatry, there's so many healing modalities, even things like journaling, you know, like being in nature, like just being reflective, can really help you learn about yourself because a lot of these things that do help you build inner peace and build mental clarity, they're like based around you just being okay with the truth of your emotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: and having an acceptance towards that and being able to feel it without fighting or fleeing it, that really helps you grow.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think for individuals like whether they're in a relationship or not, like this is the time to heal.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the time to grow.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the time to like elevate your emotional skill set and get to know your own history so that you're not dominated by the past and like that energy that you put into growing as an individual and sort of letting go of that past that you
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's a challenge though.
[SPEAKER_03]: So many of us are unsure of ourselves, unsure of our decisions because one is your first reaction is informed by your past.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now we're told, listen to your gut reaction, listen to your instinct, trust your instinct.
[SPEAKER_03]: What can we actually trust in ourselves?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you can trust the pause.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it's hard to go out there just swing in the sword.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like as soon as you feel like whatever is coming up and like to really trust that, like sometimes it may be true, but I honestly like, especially if you feel unsure about yourself and you haven't really tried pausing yet, I would pick that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you don't need to immediately respond to a text.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even if you're having a tough conversation with somebody, you don't need to like immediately retort.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed the times where before my wife and I were started meditating and we would have arguments like, we may have arguments that would last for like an hour, but we weren't talking that whole hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be like moments where we're like quiet and reflecting and like having these moments of reflection, where you're checking in with yourself like, am I trying to win this argument or am I trying to
[SPEAKER_01]: really understand and resolve this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like am I making it worse?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or am I trying to help us out of this whole?
[SPEAKER_01]: But I feel like pausing is just like a great tool for me personally, and it might be for you too.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I definitely can relate to that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I'm the type of person that doesn't like ambiguity, and I think a lot of data is deal with.
[SPEAKER_02]: this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: You're like, I wanted answer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes or no?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's sometimes it quick answer to cut someone off or to make a statement, a bold statement, like a movie god or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's almost like self-protection sometimes because you're taking action and you know immediately will feel better.
[SPEAKER_02]: But long-term that might not be what you really want.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think taking that pause is so important to be like, what is it that actually is happening in this moment?
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I ask you a quick question, Julie, since you mentioned that you're fianceed, like, I noticed this thing where when my wife and I were engaged with each other, it like upleveled the problems that weren't yet resolved.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, these are things you need to face.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we need solutions for these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a moment that felt like challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, like, we knew we were like heading towards this bigger commitment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, that period between being fianceed and also including our first year of marriage felt very challenging.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've heard other people say the same thing where it's like, it is very fun, very blissful.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the problems that are yet to resolve the major ones like come up really crisply.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had friends who were recently married.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just like, I was talking to my buddy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, all right, man, I was like, good luck.
[SPEAKER_01]: First year, you know, it's going to be some pretty heavy fights in there sometimes, but like, stay strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll keep you posted.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
[SPEAKER_02]: I like had my place that I own so he was giving up his place and at that point it was also like moving in with the idea of marriage, like getting there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course anything could happen but that was the idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think that point actually brought up a lot for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: So whether we have bored to come, who knows, it's very possible.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think a lot of that was brought up then and has been worked on since then.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really nice and it also could be just because it depends on people's self-awareness too and where there are their growth journeys about when they do that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost want to try to do a study on this if these are the key moments where a lot of these heavy things are worked on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, again I will keep you posted because it's too early.
[SPEAKER_03]: As an observer, Julie, I would say that you two definitely work through a lot of your major conflicts before getting engaged.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was partly why you two took your time to get engaged was to work through this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, but I think growth has been the consistent one too that I found a partner that wants to grow and do that and is able to look inward and all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think like for your work, I mean everything you've been saying a lot of it comes down to yourself and how do you like take accountability ownership and also check in with yourself like there's all this advice and you know how do you like see that intersection of personal development and growth and relationships that feels like to me that's your sweet spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting and I feel like I stumbled across these sort of like insights into relationship, not intentionally because I like I went into meditating and I went into, you know, just like this focus on the inner work so that I can, you know, help myself, like save myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the like byproducts that like unexpected externality from this was that I simultaneously
[SPEAKER_01]: and like, surface level, all my relationships, like, you know, including the relationship with my wife and my parents, my friends, like, my relationships were so surface level and they lacked depth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was because I was not treating myself like a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as soon as I started growing and just like embracing my own evolution and understanding, you know, what I had succeeded in and what I needed to continue developing,
[SPEAKER_01]: I started seeing like, wow, I need to improve my ability to listen, I need to improve my patience, I need to improve like acceptance of just whatever's happening in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that really helped elevate all of my relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then taking that plus these truths of impermanence and just how much I learned from meditating and seeing like, oh, when I do not embrace impermanence in my own relationship, the relationship struggles because I'm creating tension.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm stopping the flow of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so profoundly grateful to be honest, like it's just like meditating as sort of smooth out and clarified all these different areas of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it really started with, you know, building awareness, non-reaction and compassion in my own mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that helps me bring those qualities to wherever I go.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think in some ways we see you as a role model for self-growth and personal development, but you yourself have taken us on your journey of growth.
[SPEAKER_03]: So at this point in your, I guess, career, I don't even know, this is like your life purpose.
[SPEAKER_03]: How are you still pushing yourself to grow?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are the tools that you're using?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm trying to grow a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, I don't know, I'm in a weird position where a lot of people do listen to me reflect openly because that's really what I do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I definitely don't think of myself as a teacher or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not trying to have people put me on a pedestal, but I also can't control how people perceive me, but I can control the way I define myself and I'm a student.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think the key areas like my main tool is the Vaposina like I meditate the two hours a day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, you get an opportunity to study the universe basically when you close your eyes and you meditate for an hour, being able to really study that truth, that law of change.
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it helps me let go with everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: I think when I think of myself and how I want to move forward, I think the quality of acceptance that has been like a big theme in the past two years, especially when it comes to meditating where it's like, you know, I'm not trying to make my meditation any particular way or I'm not trying to like demand certain lessons from it or I'm not trying to like,
[SPEAKER_01]: demands certain sensations from it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just trying to accept whatever is there that building of acceptance has really helped me understand what I can and what I cannot control and what I can control is actually very small because when you go into the street and you're just like how and shopping or doing whatever whatever you're doing, you don't know what you're going to encounter.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if there's someone who's like very angry or upset or something like I don't want to join them in their emotion Just because they're emotion is strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to either stay in my emotion Whatever it is my balance my peace and hopefully bring people into my peace as opposed to me adopting whatever it is that they're feeling
[SPEAKER_02]: So I said that we would get back to this because I think it's so core about attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you say that you think the greatest enemy of love is attachment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does this mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like, can you explain this book?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it's such a big statement.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I think one of the really important themes in this book is that love is understanding and love is understanding is also a different way to think of love as freedom because that means that two individuals are deeply seeing each other and seeing where they're coming from.
[SPEAKER_01]: So like basically having the example of an argument is a perfect example where it's like
[SPEAKER_01]: demanding a very particular outcome or demanding there to be a winner in the argument, whereas if you take the paradigm of love as understanding, then no one's trying to win, because if you're both actively trying to win, you're both going to lose.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just throwing tension on the tension and making it worse.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then if someone does win, the other person doesn't feel good and they have to hide their feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you are really trying to aim for understanding, you want to do your best to practice selfless listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: like to literally take turns so that you can hear how the series of events moved for the other person, and then you get to share your story as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how did I feel when X, Y, and Z was happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when you are no longer battling each other, but you're just trying to understand, you'll see that that tension just pretty automatically fizzles out, because you're like, oh, that's why these emotions got heightened.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's only possible when you're not coming at things from a place of attachment, because attachment is asking one person to be right in the other person to be wrong, whereas freedom is like open to, you know, we both make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sure, one of us might have to apologize, but we're understanding each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're doubling down on our connection and moving forward.
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's hang out there for just a second because the end of your book you have a chapter called Love Is Freedom.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you've gone a record to say your favorite word is liberation.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if that's still your favorite word, but it's one of my favorite words.
[SPEAKER_03]: How can you feel together but still liberated in a relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: I know you talked about attachment to outcome, but what about what is the line drawn between feeling extremely independent from each other to actually still like building and creating a life together?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a great question because it almost seems paradoxical, but it's really, you're trying to base your relationship around commitments as opposed to expectations.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my wife and I were very committed to each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know that we only want to be with each other, but we're trying to design our relationship in a way where we have freedom to do and to travel together, or not travel together, or like,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we don't have to like check in with each other about these like little decisions that we have to make and like we just sort of feel this abundance of like flexibility in our personal lives, you know, when you take the highest levels of love, like that chapter love is freedom, what I try to point out in that chapter is how what we really get from a relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: is having a little microcosm where we can practice unconditional love.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as I mean, we get it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like unconditional love is actually very difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Having true unconditional love means that you've liberated yourself to a certain extent, like you're not dominated by craving.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not dominated by suffering anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, like if you think about those historical archetypes, like Jesus or the Buddha who've taken human evolution to like the furthest
[SPEAKER_01]: and they don't work within an ego framework anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're functioning through a framework of compassion instead of ego.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when they look out onto the world, they don't see anyone as their enemy.
[SPEAKER_01]: They only have compassion for all beings, and we get to practice that in our relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not going to be perfect all the time because we're imperfect human beings.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think it's nice that we get that opportunity to really practice those like beginning traits of liberation, beginning traits of freedom.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this has been such a fantastic conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think my biggest takeaway is from the whole convo is, you know, it all comes back to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, like there is a reason why personal growth and just growth in general is so imperative in dating in relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we're always looking for that quick fix, the easy way to find someone.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, like what you were just saying, we've seen this time and time again of once you feel at ease and when you're in your best state, that's when you end up attracting that right partner for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, like you can only control what you can control, but seeing if a partner either understands like what love actually entails, because I think there are a lot of people again that are looking for
[SPEAKER_02]: just the joy and relationship and partnership and don't really know that there is a lot and maybe like they won't know until they're in it if they haven't had a ton of relationship experience but at least seeking out the people that either want to learn and want to grow and want to like not just have this fixed mindset of like relationships should be easy and if it's not then it becomes like problematic.
[SPEAKER_03]: And just trust the pause.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, learning that day by day is the pause.
[SPEAKER_03]: Cause like you said, you've used this word a lot is chaos.
[SPEAKER_03]: This world is chaotic.
[SPEAKER_03]: Our minds are chaotic, but we don't necessarily need to participate in the chaos.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you said it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But frankly, it's easier to participate in the chaos because you don't have to pause and reflect.
[SPEAKER_03]: You can just be with it all.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just go with the flow, I guess.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the pause is actually takes more energy, takes more intention, takes more courage to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I hope that all of us can take that step of embracing the pause before we take action or say our next words.
[SPEAKER_03]: So Diego, if people want to learn more about you, where can they go other than your social media, which we will link in our show notes?
[SPEAKER_01]: The place where I'm having the most fun these days is on sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can follow me there, subscribe, young poe-o-o-y-u-n-g-p-u-e-b-l-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-
[SPEAKER_02]: and we will link it all in the show notes and people should definitely pick it up because it's such a great read and just again, your words just resonate and you're like, okay, this makes sense and I can, you know, feel myself worth reading it, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: This has been like such a good conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I'm like thinking a lot now about like things I'm going to write next.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is just like so many connections we're happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: This new, like, his feet first, from down, moment to down, moment to down, and I actually haven't put that together in a piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because people are also looking for, you know, when do you end a relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like when is it, you know, that's one of the big signs.
[SPEAKER_01]: But thank you too so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you haven't done so yet, subscribe to the psychology of relationships today.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you don't miss an episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll see you all next week.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.