[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to Sexology, a podcast that untangles the science of sex and pleasure.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, with this week's episode, your host, Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Naseneen Moali.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome back to another episode of the 6-ology podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Dr. Nazanine Mooli, and today we're diving into a question, I hear more and more from my clients.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do I feel emotionally secure in a relationship that doesn't follow traditional rules?
[SPEAKER_02]: Whether you're exploring consensual non-monogamy, open relationships, or simply trying to on-tango feelings of jealousy and insecurity, this conversation will help you understand what real security can look like beyond the monogamy box.
[SPEAKER_02]: My guest today is Jessica Fern, psychotherapist, trauma expert, and author of International Bestseller, Polysecure, attachment, trauma, and consensual, non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jessica's work has completely reshaped how therapists and clients think about love, emotional safety, and attachment in open relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, talk about what it really means to be polysecure versus just polyamorous.
[SPEAKER_02]: The six pillars of secure attachment and non-monogamy, and how to know if you're reacting to your partner or to your past.
[SPEAKER_02]: So whether you're poly, curious, or just craving more emotional security in your relationship, this episode is for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we dive in, quick thank you to our wonderful sponsor today, highly spelled HILY.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Now, let's get into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's my conversation with Jessica for...
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Sexology podcast.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited to welcome Jessica Farron to our show, Jessica Welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I am very excited about this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: We are doing a series on consensual non-monogamy, and I know your recent book, policy cure, or brought up so many great information about how can people cultivate, meaning for connections in this.
[SPEAKER_02]: space, but before we're diving into that, I'm curious to learn about your own journey into consensual non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: How did you get interested in this lifestyle and what drew you to this relationship dynamic?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been in phases and in some ways it wasn't something that initially was conscious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was quite unconscious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just felt like what was happening at 14 years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had like a little kiss with a guy and a girl at the same time and realized, oh, I'm not straight and it was really exciting and then had a bunch of those encounters sort of throughout adolescence and there was no language for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just what kind of us kids,
[SPEAKER_01]: So I look back and realize, oh, I was doing non-monogamy as young as actually 14 in many ways, but I wasn't identifying consciously with any of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it was in my practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've told the story before, but in my practice, I had this one week where all of my couples' clients like brought in the topic of opening up their relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so even though I had personal experience with it, I hadn't had professional.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I like quickly got to whatever books were out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just as I was reading through the resources and there wasn't enough, I was like, oh, this is what,
[SPEAKER_01]: I present these are my values to be loving in an open way to embrace love as a path.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's really when it became a conscious choice or a conscious alignment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I should say it never really feel like a choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kind of like it having those clients awake in and away or re-away can.
[SPEAKER_02]: The point of view that you are curious about this and you found lots of alignment, wakes up.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are stories.
[SPEAKER_02]: Were you in the monogamous relationship before were you doing serious monogamy?
[SPEAKER_01]: How was the girl relationship?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I had some again like previous versions of non-monogamy without knowing what it was or having language for it, but in that moment I wasn't a monogamous marriage, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were still non-traditional, but at that time, we were sexually exclusive.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we had talked about that might not be forever emotionally.
[SPEAKER_01]: We definitely were an exclusive.
[SPEAKER_01]: We each had very deep emotional connections with people of the same and opposite sex that like in a traditional monogamous marriage would probably be like emotional cheating.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had a context for something different, yeah, and yet it still was quite a big transition to go from being sexually exclusive to not.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of its topics that I personally kind of like exploring at times and curious about is about emotional exclusivity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like is it even a cheap app all?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a totally different society.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have meaningful connections.
[SPEAKER_02]: Same sex, friend, like platonic friends at the same sex, opposite sex or partners.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just like I feel it's very limiting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I say, I'm just gonna have deep connection with my spouse or my partner that that is like
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's unrealistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would say it's unhealthy, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Having just one emotional connection or, but I think in that what people are getting at is when they're secrecy, right, that there's someone you're building emotional intimacy with and it's secret to your spouse or to your partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: absolutely a seat and that also with secrecy you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can also be for people that are sexually monogamous.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's kind of a slippery slope that they feel there can be some boundary crossing depending on their fidelity agreement.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they can I feel like sometimes people, couldn't that can be very limiting in a way that people feel like they are entitled to the
[SPEAKER_02]: emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we, we are satisfied with the relationships.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if our listeners are having lots of difficult emotion around emotional exclusivity, it would be interesting to explore it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then gone back on to exciting you talk about your book is policy cue.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that a term that you coined?
[SPEAKER_02]: I only heard it in your work.
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell us a little bit about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the term was coined through the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, and through help with the publisher, but it is sort of, it's talking about the difference between our relationship structure, which would be polyamory.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, where that's sort of the style that we're in, whereas polysecure is about how we show up within that relationship style or relationship structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the process of having emotional security within ourselves and then with our partners and multiple partners and having enough inner security to navigate what usually is a more complex relationship structure.
[SPEAKER_02]: As therapists, we know that for many people, their insecurity comes from relational trauma, viewing childhood, or family of origin, when they felt that they had to learn their love, or there were some challenges that's sibling, as an adult, how do you invite people to assess is it like when I have a strong reaction?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it me or it's a relationship?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because of, yeah, it's hard to know
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, usually it's all of the above, but I use a little rhyme as it me, we or society.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I like people to pause and reflect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what of this is mine?
[SPEAKER_01]: It is rooted in my history.
[SPEAKER_01]: It has happened in previous connections or relationships before.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm not with this person, it probably will happen again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, versus what feels like it is us, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or my partner didn't keep an agreement or they're, I'm not getting needs met or I'm getting needs met in a different way than I was used to in this relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then society is all of the cultural conditioning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we didn't have really childhood trauma with our caretakers, but it's hard to imagine people who aren't experiencing societal and cultural trauma from
[SPEAKER_01]: from the wrong that we live in.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is so true, and I feel and society, all those who have been more understanding around ethical and non-monogamy, but like people feel that they default or what's right from majority of people, they assume it's monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I can imagine that people are leaving non-monogamous, lifestyle, they experience lots of stigma or shame, or even if
[SPEAKER_02]: This group do you have in society is that it's because you want it too much, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they think that sometimes is something that kind of like people here?
[SPEAKER_02]: And on learning it, it can be challenging.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are some of those societal messages that you think people experience when they are in polyamorous relationships?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that they just haven't found the one yet or their non-committal.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have an attachment problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to have their cake and eat it too.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the most common.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those are usually the ones that people are encountering.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the wonderful things in your book is we're talking about six pillars of secure attachment in non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: For audience that they're not familiar with those pillars, can you briefly share those with us?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I came up with the acronym Harts and so the purpose of Harts was just to give people context, was to give anybody who wants to cultivate a secure connection, a secure attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's ways to do it without having to be monogamous.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it really can be for any relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm not telling you you have to be monogamous in order to have secure attachment, which unfortunately a lot of the literature on the attachment does.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so H is for here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's about the quality of presence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Am I here with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you here with me?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's in an emotional attention presence kind of way, but it's also just quite literal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's hard to attach, but we don't have enough time with someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to bond if we don't see someone enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that number can change.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's not like one golden rule number there, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It can change and for people in various ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: E in hearts is expressed delight.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is the way that we ooze from ourselves to our partner that we love them, that we take delight in the fact that they are alive and that we're together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not necessarily words of affirmation in the love language.
[SPEAKER_01]: The five love languages it can be, but it also is just the way we touch the way we look, the way we go about being in the same space with our partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then the A is a tunement, you know, tuning into our partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: tuning in to their emotional state, tuning in to their needs, tuning into their reality, even if it's quite different from ours.
[SPEAKER_01]: The R is rituals and routines, so it's so important to our attachment system to have big rituals and like little daily routines from how we message each other if we don't live together or when we come together, that's the way we greet each other, how we
[SPEAKER_01]: and also big rights of passage, you know, whether it's an escalation or de-escalation in relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: The T is turning towards after conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the most important things.
[SPEAKER_01]: We even insecure relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is conflict.
[SPEAKER_01]: right there will be and that's healthy but how quickly do we turn back towards each other after there's conflict and then ask the secure attachment with self and that's basically how you heart your self how are you present and here with yourself how's your inner dialogue and express delight how do you value yourself how do you attune to yourself
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your rituals and routines for your mental and physical and emotional wellness and spiritual wellness?
[SPEAKER_01]: And how do you deal with inner conflicts like the voice of an inner critic or when you make a mistake and let yourself down or your emotional triggers?
[SPEAKER_02]: These are great guidelines for people even when they are, and as you said in a monogamous relationship, oftentimes people find that even if there are a monogamy, they're not present with the partner, and they don't spend enough time, and the competition is not necessarily
[SPEAKER_02]: another partner, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's partner's work or it could be volunteer activity.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could be a source of avoidance for people because what you talked about maturity of us, we haven't learned.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's very rare that we learned about coming to work together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Repair is something that we actually you see at all the time in your practice that we're really struggling with.
[SPEAKER_02]: So these are the skills that's important to cultivate with even when you are in a monocomance relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wonder about going back to the point of coming together after the conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know that's one of your specialty, like how Lake resolution, how do you advise couples to walk through it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first we need regulation, nervous system regulation.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can't work through a conflict if we're still activated.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're still on the fight or flight or freeze stress response.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even in session, people can get disregulated so quickly, just when they're like rehashing what happens right or get defensive so quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So actually having those that skill set is the foundation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you regulate?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I'm an IFS lover and IFS trained in IFIO.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alright, so that's one of my favorite modalities of looking at the parts of each person that are actually in the conflict with each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that I found has really, it changes things much faster than other things that I love as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you are right that having tools for regulating emotions are very, very helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also part of it is how to have productive coming back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because sometimes I tell people teach people that okay, these are like, let's talk about how are we going to regulate our nervous system.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if we don't have a system to come together or have more of a, for some people in a framework of how are we going to resolve the issue, what often people find themselves as they find themselves in the same argument, that's why I didn't want to have the conversation for repair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I will quickly back to the conversation to the fight we had last week.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why they avoid
[SPEAKER_02]: having this conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know many of first, some of my clients and non-monochemestrelationships, if they haven't had the skills, it can be easier for them to avoid the partner.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that can also be triggering.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, for people that they feel their needs are not being met.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are in a polyamorous relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: For example, they feel like their partner is not giving them the tension after the conflict or avoiding them and they feel jealous, or they have this kind of emotions around, maybe I'm not good enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you recommend people to explore in order to get out of that cycle?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, from the kind of mock case example you're giving right I would want to explore the not good enough and not probably has origins in shame parts parts that are holding shame and believe and that they're not worthy or not enough, but then explore what's happening in the relational experience that is activating that as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, making commitments and agreements that if we have ruptures, we are committed to repairing, right, and like even just it's a higher level of like why are we together in the first place and this is the maintenance of of the relationship and just really agreeing that you're both on the same page of yes, the relationship will take maintenance and we're committed to that process.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going back to what you said, having this kind of like exploration, this kind of understanding of is it me, is it my partner or it's because of the societal script that get activated, that gets me in the way of getting the way of me dressing, the challenge because sometimes
[SPEAKER_02]: People have the stories from their childhood, maybe I don't want to be needy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want my partner to experience me being needy or having the story of like, maybe my partner started a new relationship and the new relationship comes excitement.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sometimes people feel that, now that we're a different season of connection,
[SPEAKER_02]: maybe I'm not as valuable.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I am really appreciate your inviting people to think about like kind of have the self reflection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you recommend people to do the work with a therapist?
[SPEAKER_02]: If they want to open the relationship or kind of assess if they're ready or not or that's something that they can do with the partner or how do you recommend people to explore their readiness?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's take great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have them explore why they want to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they're both doing it from a place of expansion and excitement and they're ready to explore, you know, and it's not coming from infidelity or for conflict or deficiency in the relationship, it's going to be, it still will be difficult in ways, but you're starting on a better path to begin
[SPEAKER_01]: But even then I have people come to me from that like you're starting from the right place, they're coming to me from a good place before they open up and they just do so much better because they have that support too because it's just something that is hard to change paradigms our relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, often that's not how it happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is sort of, it's not a fantasy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I see it, but mostly what happens is you have one partner who really feels like they need this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is who they are and the other partner would never have chosen this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's a really hard dynamic to be in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yes, in that case it's like please get support because in that case it's going to take a year or two a year and a half
[SPEAKER_01]: before it starts to shift into maybe feeling doable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that you're kind of talking about like what would be ideal situation and what often happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also assume many people that their partner would open up the relationship and they are they always envisioned envisioned themselves being monogamous and there is some level of grief that comes back that I'm exploring this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what would you recommend for the partner that have reservation?
[SPEAKER_02]: How can they, like we recommend them to kind of see if this is something I want or I'm doing this for my partner and I will be at the place of resentment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's hard to know too because there's so many people who initially think, I don't want this, but then when they try it, they realize they actually like it or it suits them or it's working.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's one of those things that it's sometimes hard to know until you try.
[SPEAKER_01]: But some people genuinely know beforehand, this is not for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want nothing to do with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a clear know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in that case, it's then the harder conversation of just
[SPEAKER_01]: But for that partner to say, okay, what are the steps you could take that would make this digestible for a little bit of time?
[SPEAKER_01]: So we don't jump into our partners in a love and secondary primary relationship with someone else or they meet someone and sleep with them right away or maybe that is what feels okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but just having your partner go on a date and not even be physical with someone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just take these smaller steps to digest the experience and take it in and let the nervous system integrate it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It also really helps when that reluctant person goes out and actually finds someone that they're drawn to.
[SPEAKER_01]: that they feel excitement for, even if there's wouldn't have done that, because then they can come home and they really have more of a confidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, oh, okay, if my partner is going to be with someone else, they still will like me too, because I'm experiencing now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I also see that some people choose to be on a monopoly dynamic, that one partner remains in monogamous relationship, and the other partner have, like the app polyamorous relationship,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it can work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it definitely can work, especially if the person who's more who is monogamous usually there's they need something in their life that's there's that there's like another lover without it being a human hobby is interest their career their spiritual practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: just a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but it can work.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what I've discovered around kind of as hearing people's stories, or journeys of choosing was right for them, since there is no specific script.
[SPEAKER_02]: It creates with lots of exploration and reflection, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, I kind of step by thinking about, let me do this and let's see how it sits with me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what makes it challenging is then you have to be able to communicate with your partner that even less than work well and like making sure that it's well received.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny one of my patients was telling me that people say there's 50% of people are secure attachment and it shouldn't mental help.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't met.
[SPEAKER_02]: I haven't met past to the people.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are these people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we all have our own kind of like could have our own challenges and big tier small-to-tromas.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for people that are insecure in anxious or avoiding attachment style, do you recommend them to
[SPEAKER_02]: work toward building secure attachment, like, is that even realistic for people?
[SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell us more about how can they navigate it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you mean in general or people who are non-monogamous, non-monogamous people?
[SPEAKER_02]: That okay, they want to be in a meaningful connection on relationship, maybe they have a awareness that I have an anxious attachment style or avoid an attachment style.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see many people working on it, but they're not at the secure
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's usually a lot of factors that play, like what's going on in the relationship that they do need more security in their relationships, but working through those attachment styles as parts, the part of them that's anxious, the part of them that is terrified, the part of them that is...
[SPEAKER_01]: withdrawing and the part of them that are scared, there's usually actually multiple inner parts for each attachment style and many people just think I have this one attachment manifestation and they don't realize how many parts of you are connected to that anxious style.
[SPEAKER_01]: There might be a two year old, a 15 year old and a 30 year old.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one is hurting and one is people phasing and the other is fighting back and pushing at people emotionally, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where I've seen some of the most traction happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this kind of is going to touch on what we were saying before to around the reluctant partners.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what I'd guide people through is getting more in touch with capital S self,
[SPEAKER_01]: and tuning into what self is telling you, and so sometimes we tune into self and say, yeah, this just isn't right for me, and that's not avoidance, that's not not being evolved enough, that's just like wisdom and clarity, and that's what we need to move from.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes people have these parts that are resisting, but they tune into self and go, keep experimenting, keep trying this out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually worth it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're growing.
[SPEAKER_02]: and developing trust and knowing what works for us, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially for cisgender female.
[SPEAKER_02]: We learn to prioritize adult peoples' needs, learn to oftentimes, sometimes override even our intuition.
[SPEAKER_02]: So kind of like this work called letting your voice in internal voice be heard and also kind of accepting it is very
[SPEAKER_02]: Very important, I see a lot of women in my practice, as for example, they identify non-monogamous, but society put this label of permiscuity or, you know, you're having this, like, because of trauma or enactment that you want to be in multiple relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, maybe for some people that's true with many people, it's like the kind of knowing come from the knowing of themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there are so many misguided information out there when it comes to consentional non-negamy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like overnight, all of my feet at least.
[SPEAKER_02]: And past few years, it's filled with people who have not had the training or expertise to talk about this kind of thing and give people feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think are some of the well-meaning, but misguided be believed that people have that might impact others when it comes to her suggestion that they give that kind of gets in the way of people building secure relationships and ethical non-monogamy dynamics?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you might have a better pulse on some of those like what the advice that people are actually giving.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I see people come to me with the notion around compersion as like a really misguided notion that they're doing poly wrong if they're not feeling compressive, that they're doing it right.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they do feel compersion similar with jealousy, like you're not supposed to have it, or if you don't have it, then you're more evolved.
[SPEAKER_01]: and I don't see those things as true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, of course, like secure people can still be jealous.
[SPEAKER_01]: People doing non-monogamy really well can still feel jealousy and experience it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just how you tend to it that matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: And comparison, I see is more of a byproduct of a lot of other factors supporting you than what should be the standard that then gets weaponized against you for not having it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I really want people to be give themselves more slack or not bring that standard to their partner that they're supposed to feel Compersion making it a should in a relationship are listeners that are not familiar with compassion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you say what does that mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's feeling happiness.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're feeling good for your partner when they're with somebody else, specifically in a romantic or sexual way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Happy for their happiness.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I was saying, that there are other factors that can create an environment for someone experiencing a certain conversion.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what comes to your mind when you say that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I would suggest the book conversion really gets in nitty gritty into those factors.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there are social factors, there are societal factors, there's communities of support factors, there's secure attachment or not, and what's going on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's a lot of different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're being treated well, I think a lot of people use, like you should feel compression, even though I'm actually breaking agreements or like not meaning your attachment needs in the same way anymore, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or it becomes a way to bypass.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when people's feelings are really tended to, then it's easier for them to eventually access compulsion.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if they're partner can say, yeah, you're this is hard for you, you're feeling hurt by this
[SPEAKER_01]: for the struggles is also a support towards comparison.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that that you haven't read that book, that sounds very interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, it's very multi-layered.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it depends on different seasons of life, even, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like as you have, as they have more community, maybe we are more could be generous with our emotion or temperament.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if you're in the season that we're really struggling, maybe that's something that's harder to access.
[SPEAKER_02]: But as far as what I see in like social media or like guides that many coaches or people give is this black and white way of, this is the right way of doing non-monogamy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: But I've noticed that even as therapists, like we are working with specific population and are lived forever experience, they're lived experiences shaped our vision of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for people, they are in the journey of
[SPEAKER_02]: discovering what's right for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you said, the best approach is like their internal emotions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like our emotions, reactions, and maybe exploring it with a therapist that are non-judgmental.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because again, as therapists also, we have our own biases at times.
[SPEAKER_02]: For our listeners that they want to learn more from you about the work that you do, what are some of the places they can find your work?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they can go to JessicaFern.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the easiest way.
[SPEAKER_01]: We can see Poly Secure.
[SPEAKER_01]: My book afterwards, Poly Wise.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a book coming out in Halloween.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not about non-monogamy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about inner parts work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Call transforming the Sheem triangle.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the best way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: To link for all of that would be in the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, thank you so much, Jessica, for coming in the show and sharing your knowledge and experiences with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye there!
[SPEAKER_02]: If this conversation sparked something in you, maybe a longing for more emotional safety, more connection and more confidence in your relationships, you're not alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Secure attachment isn't just something you're bored with.
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