WEBVTT 00:11.928 --> 00:18.320 [SPEAKER_00]: Hi, and welcome to Basic Folk where we have honest conversations with folk musicians on the bluegrass situation. 00:18.380 --> 00:22.628 [SPEAKER_00]: It's me, your host Cindy House, and guest who is here with us. 00:23.169 --> 00:25.513 [SPEAKER_00]: It's me, Lizzyna! 00:25.533 --> 00:26.916 [SPEAKER_02]: Boo, boo, boo, boo! 00:27.638 --> 00:30.342 [SPEAKER_02]: Cindy, we have not recorded together in such a long time. 00:31.023 --> 00:33.947 [SPEAKER_02]: You're telling me, welcome back from maternity leave. 00:34.448 --> 00:35.770 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell me everything, Bestie. 00:36.091 --> 00:37.353 [SPEAKER_00]: Are you different now that you're a mom? 00:37.713 --> 00:41.719 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so, which I think is different than I thought it was gonna be. 00:41.779 --> 00:45.685 [SPEAKER_00]: I thought I was gonna turn into like a completely different person. 00:45.845 --> 00:46.106 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 00:46.306 --> 00:48.830 [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the thing about me as your friend and co-host. 00:48.850 --> 00:53.697 [SPEAKER_02]: I would have loved and accepted the new mom version of Cindy too, so they're still room for that. 00:53.744 --> 01:00.156 [SPEAKER_00]: That's, yeah, that's why I keep you around because you are here with me through the changes. 01:00.917 --> 01:05.866 [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly, same here, Cindy has been my rock through so many life changes. 01:05.927 --> 01:11.557 [SPEAKER_02]: Honestly, this pod has become such a central part of my life because of our friendship. 01:11.978 --> 01:13.761 [SPEAKER_02]: And I wanted to put that on the record. 01:14.028 --> 01:14.409 [SPEAKER_00]: love it. 01:14.649 --> 01:20.618 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we're so happy to have Madison Cunningham on the podcast today Lizzy spoke with Maddie. 01:20.639 --> 01:23.563 [SPEAKER_00]: That is coming up before we get into it. 01:24.084 --> 01:26.568 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about the basic folk news letter. 01:26.628 --> 01:31.215 [SPEAKER_00]: You can sign up for it at the link in the show notes or you can go to BasicFoke.com. 01:31.235 --> 01:38.567 [SPEAKER_00]: It's a once a month newsletter that I actually haven't sent out in a bunch of months, but we'll be getting back into that. 01:38.547 --> 01:41.131 [SPEAKER_00]: You can also follow us on social media. 01:41.211 --> 01:47.161 [SPEAKER_00]: We are most vibrant on Instagram, but we're also on Facebook, TikTok and YouTube. 01:47.261 --> 01:49.746 [SPEAKER_00]: You can find us at basic folk pod. 01:50.327 --> 01:52.290 [SPEAKER_00]: We are a listener supported podcast. 01:52.310 --> 01:54.233 [SPEAKER_00]: You can throw us a couple of bucks every month. 01:54.433 --> 02:03.829 [SPEAKER_00]: The link is in the show notes, or you can go to basicfolk.com slash donate to help us out because it's free to listen, but it's not free to produce. 02:03.809 --> 02:05.671 [SPEAKER_02]: And let me make a note about our Instagram. 02:05.832 --> 02:12.681 [SPEAKER_02]: From time to time, Cindy is magnanimous enough to give me the password to the basic folk Instagram. 02:13.081 --> 02:17.808 [SPEAKER_02]: And let me post away about my life as a working folk artist in Nashville. 02:18.368 --> 02:27.100 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's been so much fun over the past couple of years to share when I come across Nashville musicians that I love and like share them with our basic folk audience. 02:27.661 --> 02:32.567 [SPEAKER_02]: So do follow our Instagram and send us recommendations of artists we should be listening to. 02:32.547 --> 02:35.273 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have anything that you would like to address? 02:35.774 --> 02:43.370 [SPEAKER_02]: I would like to congratulate everybody for making it through almost to the end of what has been an absolutely crazy year. 02:43.390 --> 02:51.568 [SPEAKER_02]: So much as happening in the world, war, deprivation, political upheaval, 02:53.067 --> 03:12.311 [SPEAKER_02]: Whatever the hell Donald Trump and all his cronies are up to, it's a scary time out there and I'm so grateful that we have an audience of people who care about music and care about musicians and invest their time and sometimes their dollars into like making sure there's a space for musicians to tell their stories. 03:12.451 --> 03:15.295 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm feeling so encouraged by that at the end of the year. 03:15.528 --> 03:16.370 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love that. 03:17.212 --> 03:17.793 [SPEAKER_00]: So wonderful. 03:18.214 --> 03:32.524 [SPEAKER_00]: Lizzie and I are going to have a year in review episode coming up in just a couple of weeks here on Basic Folk where we'll have, um, we're going to have a fun round table between, uh, Olivia, Ellen Lloyd, Kaya, Kater, and Issa Burke. 03:32.504 --> 03:38.911 [SPEAKER_00]: We're also going to be sharing some clips from our favorite episodes this year, that'll be coming out in the feed. 03:38.931 --> 03:49.622 [SPEAKER_00]: So keep your eye peeled to there and then we'll also be sharing playlists of our favorite music and I should send out a newsletter for that. 03:49.682 --> 03:50.683 [SPEAKER_00]: So sign up for the newsletter. 03:50.823 --> 03:52.465 [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, the basic folk end of the year lists. 03:52.765 --> 03:57.550 [SPEAKER_02]: It's one of my favorite things to do and I have been working hard on my playlist. 03:57.530 --> 04:04.577 [SPEAKER_02]: Cindy and I have different tastes, but we, but it's always funny to see which songs like overlap between the two of us that we both find undeniable. 04:04.637 --> 04:07.380 [SPEAKER_02]: So count down to playlist day. 04:07.740 --> 04:09.082 [SPEAKER_02]: Should we talk about Madison Cunningham? 04:09.142 --> 04:09.763 [SPEAKER_02]: I am so excited. 04:09.783 --> 04:09.983 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 04:10.663 --> 04:12.726 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I love to this conversation. 04:12.786 --> 04:13.286 [SPEAKER_02]: Me too. 04:13.306 --> 04:14.327 [SPEAKER_02]: It's so cool. 04:14.768 --> 04:18.071 [SPEAKER_02]: She is a superstar which you can tell by how chill she is. 04:18.251 --> 04:18.752 [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I mean? 04:18.792 --> 04:21.695 [SPEAKER_02]: Like there's like a presence to Madison where you're like, oh, that's a star. 04:23.397 --> 04:23.537 [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm. 04:23.557 --> 04:23.917 [SPEAKER_00]: For sure. 04:24.077 --> 04:24.297 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 04:24.658 --> 04:26.760 [SPEAKER_02]: My interview with Madison Cunningham. 04:27.247 --> 04:33.177 [SPEAKER_02]: was one of those all-time basic folk moments where a guest gets really deep really quickly. 04:33.397 --> 04:49.845 [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm really grateful to have had the chance to speak with this brilliant young torch bearer of the folk tradition, we were celebrating the release of her new album Ace and talking about her earliest beginnings as a musician. 04:49.825 --> 05:18.415 [SPEAKER_02]: um, cutting him grew up in the church and environment which shaped her earliest memories of music from the very beginning Madison had a sense of togetherness and transcendence in her music which remains throughout her catalog um and her present-day performances and collaborations as well it was fascinating to hear Madison describe how she developed into a commanding solo performer renegotiating her relationship with spirituality and individuality along the way 05:19.323 --> 05:34.378 [SPEAKER_02]: After the massive impact of her Grammy winning 2022 album Revealer and collaborations with artists like Andrew Bird, cutting him summoned all of her creative form breaking powers for her new album Ace. 05:34.358 --> 05:43.694 [SPEAKER_02]: As we talked through the track list and all of the arrangements, I got the sense that this isn't artist who is always challenging herself to release control. 05:44.395 --> 05:49.164 [SPEAKER_02]: She lets things fall apart and then puts the pieces back together according to her own vision. 05:49.985 --> 05:51.367 [SPEAKER_02]: This is artistic freedom. 05:52.269 --> 05:56.957 [SPEAKER_02]: Madison's reflections on heartbreak feel intimate, thoughtful, hopeful, and unique. 05:57.713 --> 06:02.861 [SPEAKER_02]: We discuss the genre of folk as an institution and didn't really like that into it. 06:02.941 --> 06:05.105 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we didn't come to any form conclusions. 06:05.265 --> 06:15.942 [SPEAKER_02]: So Ace may or may not be a folk album by aesthetic measures, but it is definitely an outstanding example of world building within the singer songwriter format. 06:15.922 --> 06:24.636 [SPEAKER_02]: whether on piano or guitar, cutting him has a focused way of expressing herself that makes me want to know what unpredictable gems she will create next. 06:25.177 --> 06:29.083 [SPEAKER_02]: Long live the creativity of independent women and long live Madison, cutting him. 06:29.604 --> 06:31.327 [SPEAKER_00]: Long live Madison, cutting him. 06:31.387 --> 06:34.392 [SPEAKER_00]: The conversation between Maddie and Lizzy is fantastic. 06:34.452 --> 06:36.435 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you enjoy this great interview. 06:36.475 --> 06:38.038 [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome job, Lizzy. 06:38.078 --> 06:39.600 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Cindy. 06:39.580 --> 06:43.709 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's take a listen to a song from Madison Cunningham's new album Ace. 06:43.970 --> 06:51.025 [SPEAKER_00]: This is break the jaw and then we'll get to our conversation with Lizzy No and Madison Cunningham on basically. 07:28.282 --> 07:34.680 [SPEAKER_01]: The walls of a swamp back in me But it'll look a drop of love So... 08:23.193 --> 08:52.052 [SPEAKER_01]: If there's on my pillow, your charms and dress I'll treat you as swathams or a treasure chest And I didn't know what I was seeing, you and me I've been in my post, and you pick me up at the latch We can't burn the halls, so you lean on the grab But looking people, don't have to break people too 09:33.055 --> 09:34.036 [SPEAKER_02]: Madison Cunningham. 09:34.176 --> 09:37.499 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for agreeing to be on basic folk. 09:38.080 --> 09:40.882 [SPEAKER_02]: My name is Lizzy No, and I'm honored to have you on the show. 09:41.142 --> 09:43.845 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks so much for having me on this morning. 09:44.245 --> 09:52.813 [SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into your incredible new album Ace, which comes out October 10th, I want to get into your origin story a little bit. 09:53.534 --> 10:00.700 [SPEAKER_02]: Can you describe what it was like to watch your father and your 10:01.152 --> 10:08.200 [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was a, that was the first experience I had surrounding inspiration. 10:08.220 --> 10:12.276 [SPEAKER_03]: I think that was the first, um, 10:13.268 --> 10:31.295 [SPEAKER_03]: Those are the first young early examples of people being passionate about something and passion is so contagious and I wanted to, I think I wanted like a seated that table or something, but like a way to talk to both of them on a deeper level. 10:31.636 --> 10:36.643 [SPEAKER_03]: And so it was like not just a creative interest, it was actually a means of 10:37.315 --> 10:40.158 [SPEAKER_03]: communication with with those people that I really love. 10:40.178 --> 10:41.319 [SPEAKER_03]: I still feel that it was my dad. 10:41.339 --> 10:53.370 [SPEAKER_03]: I think we we really connect through music and talking about guitar and pedals and all of those nerdier things and I love that we have that like connection point. 10:53.490 --> 10:57.113 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's like a shorthand that you've had with them from a young age. 10:57.133 --> 10:58.014 [SPEAKER_02]: That's really interesting. 10:58.034 --> 10:58.274 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 10:59.255 --> 11:06.782 [SPEAKER_02]: Now I've also read that you were a church kid and I was the same way my dad was a choir director 11:07.268 --> 11:12.141 [SPEAKER_02]: you're understanding as a singer and as a musician, can you talk about what denomination it was? 11:12.221 --> 11:12.903 [SPEAKER_02]: Was it hymns? 11:12.943 --> 11:14.146 [SPEAKER_02]: Was it contemporary music? 11:14.186 --> 11:16.873 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how did that shape your understanding of music? 11:17.140 --> 11:45.493 [SPEAKER_03]: It was such an interesting church because it was an amalgamation of like all different generations sort of coming from Christianity so there was like a there was a ton of him's I remember seeing those mainly for a time and then and then it was contemporary sort of worship him's if you will, but yeah it's it's like technically a non denomination denomination and I there's something so specific about. 11:46.334 --> 12:06.354 [SPEAKER_03]: growing up there because you, you, you, you, like, taught to believe that you're special, but also that, like, you, you don't mean anything at all, because in light of God and, and, and, and light of, you know, being taught that you're a sinner by nature. 12:06.674 --> 12:15.463 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just kind of like this weird, like you don't really know what, to fall for, to believe in. 12:15.832 --> 12:22.661 [SPEAKER_03]: really cool or I'm just dirt but no there really is not much balance. 12:22.762 --> 12:25.875 [SPEAKER_02]: I grew up in a similar religious upbringing and it's like 12:26.412 --> 12:30.978 [SPEAKER_02]: We are the chosen people, we're everything, but I personally am the worst. 12:30.998 --> 12:36.044 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm totally, you know, it's so it's such a back and forth, especially as a child, trying to understand it. 12:36.364 --> 12:44.254 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think adults understand it, so children are just fucking confused for the rest of their lives. 12:44.975 --> 12:47.498 [SPEAKER_03]: And never get past the age six. 12:47.578 --> 12:54.867 [SPEAKER_03]: Now, I feel like the benefits of having that kind of an upbringing 12:56.129 --> 13:00.194 [SPEAKER_03]: that I did learn very quickly though how to be a part of a group of people. 13:00.354 --> 13:17.316 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that applies very much to being in a band setting and also that applies to being in a group of artists where it's like, not, there isn't one star here. 13:17.376 --> 13:21.121 [SPEAKER_03]: It's all of us contributing different things for different purposes. 13:21.221 --> 13:24.685 [SPEAKER_03]: So I feel like I've been able to carry that piece 13:25.289 --> 13:33.321 [SPEAKER_03]: some of the religious trauma able to take the positive out of it, airlift it into my current life. 13:34.563 --> 13:42.795 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like there's still any connection for you between like a spiritual identity and who you are as a singer and as an artist? 13:43.936 --> 13:51.988 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think music is completely spiritual and I haven't been able to detach 13:52.694 --> 14:09.420 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, that idea from music, I wouldn't call it, like, identified with one religion, you know, but I, I have like, I'm still, I still consider myself to be a seeker and a spiritual person and have that kind of. 14:10.244 --> 14:23.771 [SPEAKER_03]: Faith and I'm constantly asking myself if it's like I'm afraid to have a life without it or if I really do find meaning through that perspective and I think probably a bit of both. 14:25.334 --> 14:29.923 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it comes through in your lyrics because there is a balance between like. 14:30.612 --> 14:31.897 [SPEAKER_02]: What do I know for sure? 14:31.917 --> 14:36.151 [SPEAKER_02]: And when are the structures getting broken? 14:36.172 --> 14:42.293 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like you do dance back and forth between those two poles in a really interesting way. 14:42.593 --> 14:43.294 [SPEAKER_03]: Right. 14:43.314 --> 15:10.069 [SPEAKER_03]: I also think being an adult and being an adult that's trying to be open handed is being like okay I'm learning how to trust myself and also in that process you have to get to the point where you go I don't really know anything so those are two really deeply conflicting ideas but the smartest people I know are able to hold both of those very you know different ideas with a lot of care and nuance and like. 15:10.319 --> 15:12.121 [SPEAKER_03]: active conversation. 15:12.161 --> 15:15.204 [SPEAKER_03]: That's where I'm always trying to land. 15:15.244 --> 15:17.186 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just ask a lot of questions. 15:19.248 --> 15:31.061 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we're going to get into some of those soon with regard to the new album, but it has been fun to not only listen to your music, but also read reviews and interviews from throughout your career. 15:31.121 --> 15:38.088 [SPEAKER_02]: It feels like a lot of ink has been spilled about how captivating you are as a solo performer, which is no small thing. 15:38.129 --> 15:39.550 [SPEAKER_02]: There are a lot of people who 15:40.913 --> 15:42.175 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, can't do what you do. 15:42.475 --> 15:48.543 [SPEAKER_02]: You magnetize the audience to yourself, whether you have a band or whether you're solo. 15:49.284 --> 15:52.929 [SPEAKER_02]: And you've also said that growing up, you had a great deal of stage fright. 15:53.050 --> 16:00.660 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you talk about what it was like to push through that discomfort and how you got to where you are today as a solo performer? 16:01.501 --> 16:01.962 [SPEAKER_03]: It's funny. 16:02.863 --> 16:08.569 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm saying this now for the people who are going to be listening, but before we got on this call, there was technical issues. 16:08.889 --> 16:11.993 [SPEAKER_03]: And Lizzy was hearing her voice echoed back. 16:12.033 --> 16:20.682 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's such a, like, such a horrifying experience to hear what your inflections are and what you actually sound like. 16:20.722 --> 16:30.293 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is where so much of my stage right came from was I had such a, 16:30.273 --> 16:32.776 [SPEAKER_03]: of what I sounded like and I hated it. 16:32.916 --> 16:44.951 [SPEAKER_03]: I hated every moment of hearing myself and being in front of people and witnessing people listening to me and like it was such an intense feeling of being perceived and perceiving people perceiving me. 16:44.991 --> 16:46.473 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like this weird meta thing. 16:46.513 --> 16:50.337 [SPEAKER_03]: But it felt like I was just in this big echo of myself. 16:50.597 --> 16:59.368 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think I had to like be okay with not only how I sounded 17:00.698 --> 17:09.358 [SPEAKER_03]: knowing that that was the best that I could do and being in front of people and then falling in love with that process like I don't think I would be here unless it was like a 17:10.672 --> 17:16.501 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, a passion that developed, because I, I mean, I was pushed into it. 17:16.521 --> 17:36.831 [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't want, I was doing music and private, and it was healing for me, but I wasn't like, I was kind of, and I would say this to his face, but my dad definitely forced me into like, the spotlight, because I think he saw potential, but I didn't realize that in order to like, find potential you had to like go through many layers of embarrassment. 17:36.811 --> 17:45.409 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, because it's just a part of the shame thing is just going to be part of it and that's like kind of the hardest part like you don't get to skip that no matter how talented you are. 17:45.429 --> 17:52.364 [SPEAKER_03]: I know and I like my whole adulthood and what I'm sure is going to be the rest of it is just learning how to be like. 17:53.787 --> 17:57.655 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm embarrassed all the time, but I think that's a good thing. 17:57.635 --> 18:00.640 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it means you're doing something real I think. 18:00.880 --> 18:14.462 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like to now start to measure like if something is going right or not by the levels of embarrassment, I the other night is a little tangent, but I I've started this like improvised. 18:14.442 --> 18:17.525 [SPEAKER_03]: sort of musical scenario with some friends. 18:17.806 --> 18:20.889 [SPEAKER_03]: And we did it in front of an audience at the night. 18:20.909 --> 18:22.951 [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, that was so hard for me. 18:22.971 --> 18:27.396 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I had to take a long walk and go, I don't think you're very good at this. 18:27.596 --> 18:34.444 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the only thing that made me go back inside and do the second set was you're not very good at this yet. 18:36.066 --> 18:39.049 [SPEAKER_03]: But the only way to get good at this is to like, 18:39.856 --> 18:47.940 [SPEAKER_03]: to face it head on and to just feel a little embarrassed tonight and maybe deal with the fact that people might also say, yeah, she's not very good at this yet. 18:49.545 --> 18:52.313 [SPEAKER_03]: And that fucking sucks. 18:52.495 --> 18:53.076 [SPEAKER_03]: It sucks. 18:53.236 --> 19:04.827 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like especially for someone that started music really young, it's got to be hard as like a grown up professional adult to let people in on the process of learning when you're learning something new like improvisation. 19:04.907 --> 19:07.269 [SPEAKER_02]: That's got to be a big fear factor. 19:07.289 --> 19:08.571 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel that way. 19:09.111 --> 19:16.658 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's very well said and also like if early trauma is connected to those first embarrassing moments. 19:16.698 --> 19:18.300 [SPEAKER_03]: It's really hard to not. 19:18.280 --> 19:28.152 [SPEAKER_03]: let the new blushes of like experimentation feel like that, like they're just like old PTSD moments of of like childhood. 19:28.212 --> 19:34.119 [SPEAKER_03]: And I maybe it's every landmark in my life has come with a shade of that shame. 19:34.199 --> 19:38.384 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm I'm starting to like, it's starting to just become an annual holiday. 19:38.424 --> 19:47.815 [SPEAKER_02]: The shade holiday. 19:55.996 --> 19:59.583 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm very interested in your routines as an artist. 19:59.623 --> 20:03.831 [SPEAKER_02]: You've said that you write for 10 minutes a day, whether it includes songwriter or not. 20:04.413 --> 20:07.458 [SPEAKER_02]: So is there a particular songwriting chair? 20:07.639 --> 20:15.354 [SPEAKER_02]: Are there certain times of days, certain times of the day when you feel like most drawn to writing, like what's the routine and process around that? 20:16.496 --> 20:18.460 [SPEAKER_03]: I really enjoy 20:18.845 --> 20:22.812 [SPEAKER_03]: catching myself in moments where I feel really taken off guard or jumble. 20:23.093 --> 20:26.699 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's when the coolest shit kind of comes to the surface. 20:26.719 --> 20:31.789 [SPEAKER_03]: So those hours from here right in the morning or right before I go to bed at night. 20:32.009 --> 20:35.335 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like that's my most honest or something. 20:35.315 --> 20:39.704 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like the veil is thin between spirituality and real life, like at those times. 20:39.744 --> 20:41.528 [SPEAKER_02]: You're like open to dreams. 20:41.588 --> 20:42.310 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 20:42.370 --> 20:43.613 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you're like different influences. 20:43.873 --> 20:50.387 [SPEAKER_03]: In that few state, like in between dreaming, in between reality and, and that is where... 20:50.367 --> 20:58.439 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe our most conscious thoughts actually, this, um, I have no science to bet that up, but I'm sure you're right. 20:58.459 --> 21:02.946 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure they felt cool to say that's just what being in our distance. 21:03.367 --> 21:09.315 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, I really, really try to stay true to that also because it's a journaling practice in a way. 21:09.416 --> 21:18.990 [SPEAKER_03]: Even though it's not like all factual, some of it's just like, oh, these are images. 21:19.477 --> 21:23.541 [SPEAKER_03]: It, yeah, it feels like making a cup of tea at night to me. 21:23.801 --> 21:44.482 [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's like something that puts me in a space where I feel like I have spoken to myself or something, which is, you know, like a very dramatic way of putting it, but going days and months without doing that, it makes me feel very strange from my life a little bit if I don't keep with that practice. 21:44.502 --> 21:46.564 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that leads in, 21:47.050 --> 21:50.883 [SPEAKER_03]: to songwriting as well, or it benefits it at least. 21:51.265 --> 21:57.988 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I'm, and then like if I'm getting into a song writing pattern, I, 21:58.272 --> 22:04.664 [SPEAKER_03]: try to do this like four hours a day with half hour breaks in between each hour. 22:04.724 --> 22:08.892 [SPEAKER_03]: So it's just like the phone is turned off, all technologies turn off. 22:09.793 --> 22:15.223 [SPEAKER_03]: And I know that I'm going to just try and be devoted to the process even if nothing is becoming of it. 22:16.426 --> 22:19.892 [SPEAKER_03]: And usually always something emerges either on like 22:20.345 --> 22:21.607 [SPEAKER_03]: day two, day four. 22:21.647 --> 22:24.372 [SPEAKER_03]: And I try to keep it very like nine to five. 22:24.492 --> 22:26.275 [SPEAKER_03]: There's something, it's funny. 22:26.295 --> 22:33.949 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I get to have the life of an artist, but then sometimes I like to simulate the life like a nine to five. 22:34.369 --> 22:38.036 [SPEAKER_02]: And just for a professional queen, we loved it. 22:38.376 --> 22:45.829 [SPEAKER_02]: That's so interesting, because I'm sure it puts structure to your brain that the creative side wouldn't necessarily bring. 22:46.062 --> 23:05.042 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it grounds me as a person somehow, so there's like a method to the madness of the way that, you know, the corporate world works or something, but all that to say that's kind of, that those are kind of the routines that I stand by and try to stick to and like if I feel off as a person I just kind of try to start there. 23:06.664 --> 23:13.892 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, now we're on the basic folk podcast, so I have kind of a two parter about you as a folk musician. 23:14.125 --> 23:18.474 [SPEAKER_02]: First of all, what do you think it means to be a folk musician? 23:18.534 --> 23:21.360 [SPEAKER_02]: And would you say that Ace is a folk album? 23:22.002 --> 23:22.382 [SPEAKER_03]: It's fun. 23:22.483 --> 23:25.609 [SPEAKER_03]: I've never identified with the word folk. 23:25.629 --> 23:28.696 [SPEAKER_03]: I've always thought it to be a little hokey and I laugh. 23:29.938 --> 23:34.969 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm usually holding an electric guitar, playing the electric guitar, like, and 23:35.641 --> 23:43.069 [SPEAKER_03]: and my music has always sounded more alternative, if there would ever be genre that I would pair with it. 23:43.129 --> 23:46.461 [SPEAKER_03]: But I also like that it's a little bit like. 23:47.588 --> 23:52.894 [SPEAKER_03]: ambiguous and and folk has come to me and just songwriting to me. 23:53.194 --> 23:59.321 [SPEAKER_03]: But people that have the artists that have been identified with that genre are some of my favorite songwriters. 23:59.341 --> 24:03.085 [SPEAKER_03]: So I've just taken it to mean like a fancier word for singer songwriter. 24:03.145 --> 24:05.869 [SPEAKER_03]: And who are some of your folk heroes? 24:07.530 --> 24:12.176 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Johnny Mitchell. 24:12.596 --> 24:16.060 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like I have no unique answers. 24:16.327 --> 24:17.528 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's what's good about folk. 24:17.609 --> 24:20.011 [SPEAKER_02]: We can all share this similar influences. 24:20.252 --> 24:36.431 [SPEAKER_03]: I know, and obviously it starts there, like those are like the roots for me and then all the other things on the way out of discovering them or like, you know, there's been so many artists who have made folk, I think what it is or songwriting, what it is. 24:36.791 --> 24:42.418 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm trying to think, I want to think of another, 24:43.293 --> 24:59.882 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, Jan is Ian or like, you know, all that to say, I love, yeah, those, those people were kind of gave me my first like rounds of like, well, that is real fucking songwriting and anything below that. 24:59.982 --> 25:01.966 [SPEAKER_03]: It's maybe not passable. 25:02.927 --> 25:07.415 [SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, right, yeah, thoughts do and to answer the second part of your question. 25:07.555 --> 25:08.457 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't. 25:09.972 --> 25:27.616 [SPEAKER_03]: feel I don't identify with A's as being a full record, but I do think that the songs are in some ways, I felt like the balance was able to be struck of being the most dense songs that I've written and also some of the most simple songs that I've written. 25:27.636 --> 25:32.603 [SPEAKER_03]: I think just by the nature of how like specific they are. 25:33.043 --> 25:34.225 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and there's even a lyric 25:34.660 --> 25:38.929 [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember which song it is, I'm sorry to say, where you say, like, I can't write a simple song. 25:39.530 --> 25:40.693 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, take two. 25:41.555 --> 25:42.777 [SPEAKER_02]: Take two, it's such a good song. 25:43.238 --> 25:49.431 [SPEAKER_02]: And you've also said in past interviews that like the editing and simplifying process is really important to you. 25:49.451 --> 25:53.580 [SPEAKER_02]: You talked about that in terms of the songwriting for life-according to Rachel. 25:54.083 --> 25:57.468 [SPEAKER_02]: being scared of over-complicating something that was already good enough. 25:58.149 --> 26:07.962 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you tell us about the editing process for ACE, like where there are some songs that needed more edits than others, where there's somewhere like you wrote it, and it was basically, you know, the version we hear today. 26:08.022 --> 26:17.495 [SPEAKER_03]: That song, take two is a perfect example of this because I had, I was doing like a song a week thing with this text chain group of friends. 26:17.715 --> 26:19.638 [SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote that one. 26:19.658 --> 26:23.263 [SPEAKER_03]: I think in an hour, and it was on guitar, 26:24.577 --> 26:32.426 [SPEAKER_03]: I sent it off to the group with a lot of caveats and one of them being like, I don't think the song is really boring, but like it struck something true for me. 26:33.247 --> 26:53.790 [SPEAKER_03]: And that ended up being kind of everybody's favorite, like the the people in my management team and label like they like that song is so special and I was like damn I wish I liked the music a little bit better and and actually had some more lyrics and Robbie Lackerts who I made the record with kind of had pushed back and been like I actually think these set of lyrics can be. 26:53.770 --> 27:15.087 [SPEAKER_03]: chopped and that suggestion he made made the song hematimes more heartbreaking and I think I think that's kind of the beauty of the initial editing process is that you get to just say whatever the hell you want to say and probably all of it is true because it came from your brain but then there are certain things that once like just 27:15.067 --> 27:17.029 [SPEAKER_03]: um, crafted a little bit. 27:17.489 --> 27:20.151 [SPEAKER_03]: It, it really gets the point across. 27:20.212 --> 27:26.497 [SPEAKER_03]: So that song, I ended up not really having a big plan for it. 27:26.617 --> 27:40.229 [SPEAKER_03]: And when we got to the studio, I was like sat down to the piano and Jessie who played all the woodwinds on the record and I kind of came up with the first line that you hear on the piano and then I kind of sold me. 27:40.249 --> 27:43.352 [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, I know what to do from here on 27:43.687 --> 28:12.428 [SPEAKER_03]: So funny how that happens and you just need like one piece of music or one lyric to make you go, I believe what I'm saying now and I can get behind this my next question was going to be when do you know the song is finished, but it sounds like it's like that feeling that light switch on of like okay now I believe it I actually don't ever think of songs as being finished, I think of them as being alive and if I believe that it's alive. 28:13.285 --> 28:14.727 [SPEAKER_03]: that I know it's worth putting out. 28:15.268 --> 28:17.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Whoa, because the song is never fucking finished. 28:18.573 --> 28:19.073 [SPEAKER_03]: Just isn't. 28:19.294 --> 28:30.670 [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's true, because especially I really believe there's like a quantum relationship between your physical body as a performer and the written words, like it's getting reinterpreted through your changing pipes over time. 28:30.710 --> 28:32.493 [SPEAKER_02]: So, how could it ever be complete? 28:32.873 --> 28:35.657 [SPEAKER_03]: I've even, I mean, that's very beautifully said. 28:35.677 --> 28:40.204 [SPEAKER_03]: And in like recent history, 28:40.859 --> 28:48.381 [SPEAKER_03]: gone, oh man, I see what I was supposed to have said there and obviously they can't go back in time, but I'm just going to change it live. 28:49.484 --> 28:55.020 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the song takes on a new a new life and a new and there's a new chance to like say what I really 28:55.810 --> 28:59.136 [SPEAKER_03]: couldn't have known to have said at that moment. 29:00.899 --> 29:07.530 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I don't, again, I think that's like, those are the convincing boots for me. 29:07.951 --> 29:15.304 [SPEAKER_03]: I have to be like, this is a living breathing organism and it's gonna move and it's gonna take different shapes. 29:15.284 --> 29:17.528 [SPEAKER_03]: and let's try to not kill it. 29:18.209 --> 29:28.786 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, in terms of like making yourself believe in the song, do you, when you do you imagine your audience like do you imagine who the listener is when you're putting a song together or is it like your own taste? 29:29.267 --> 29:33.073 [SPEAKER_03]: My audience has in my mind always 29:33.712 --> 29:41.480 [SPEAKER_03]: the people I think of are musicians, because I just respect the hell out of the people my life. 29:41.741 --> 29:47.247 [SPEAKER_03]: And this time I have to say, I felt like I was singing to an audience of two people. 29:47.367 --> 29:48.448 [SPEAKER_03]: And I thought of no one. 29:48.808 --> 29:54.535 [SPEAKER_03]: Like this record, maybe three people, the two people I was singing to and then in and then myself. 29:54.735 --> 29:59.500 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I really felt like I made this, 29:59.648 --> 30:02.119 [SPEAKER_03]: all record for the enjoyment of me. 30:02.199 --> 30:08.005 [SPEAKER_03]: And for the settling of heart matters for myself, like I had, I kind of felt like I didn't have. 30:08.845 --> 30:14.950 [SPEAKER_03]: a choice and I also was like not overly stingy about the way that the truth tumbled out. 30:15.291 --> 30:21.236 [SPEAKER_03]: I just was like that is it and I don't have a better way to communicate that and I'm not. 30:21.936 --> 30:25.380 [SPEAKER_03]: I just got I did not get into like coolness wars with myself. 30:26.000 --> 30:37.350 [SPEAKER_03]: I just just and honestly it was the most bringing experience and I kind of knew while it was happening that it was maybe never going to be that simple again 30:37.887 --> 30:42.352 [SPEAKER_03]: heartbreak and like the destruction of self is so clarifying. 30:42.413 --> 30:47.819 [SPEAKER_03]: You're just like, these are the only things that actually mean anything to me. 30:48.260 --> 30:51.644 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's what I'm going to try and put forward. 30:51.664 --> 30:53.546 [SPEAKER_03]: And the bullshit meter was so clear. 30:53.606 --> 30:56.730 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, no, that that doesn't mean a thing to me. 30:58.132 --> 31:02.217 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, heartbreak does give you courage in a certain way. 31:02.397 --> 31:03.098 [SPEAKER_02]: That's great. 31:03.218 --> 31:04.379 [SPEAKER_02]: And you hear it on the album. 31:05.340 --> 31:07.523 [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you. 31:17.459 --> 31:20.985 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, how would you describe your relationship with the piano throughout your life? 31:21.365 --> 31:27.756 [SPEAKER_02]: Because I think you're a different type of pianist than you are at guitarist, like there's a different personality, but I'm curious in your words how you would describe that. 31:28.397 --> 31:40.817 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I don't consider myself to, I feel like I'm a very curious piano player, a very lost piano player, I don't, I know basic chords, but just, 31:41.354 --> 31:52.157 [SPEAKER_03]: It felt like, um, trying out a new tuning or something like all the things that was discovering were stumbled upon and I love that, um, 31:52.610 --> 32:11.783 [SPEAKER_03]: There's a quote and I forget who said that spine author that was describing to other authors how to write novels and basically his his take away was when someone knocks on the door in your story you as the author should also not know who's knocking until the door is opened and I think. 32:11.915 --> 32:15.620 [SPEAKER_03]: There's something about piano that felt like that to me. 32:15.881 --> 32:34.649 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I was like, I don't quite know where this is going and I don't quite know how this is working, but I'm discovering all of these personalities in me and know it's colors and like, again, I'm not a like, I'm definitely not the most dexterous piano you've been as you ever meet, but I started there. 32:34.749 --> 32:36.371 [SPEAKER_03]: I started on piano before guitar. 32:36.431 --> 32:41.078 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's an interchangeable relationship there. 32:41.851 --> 33:03.555 [SPEAKER_03]: I actually started to want to play guitar more like I played piano for this record and that was a fun kind of challenge to myself and something that just kind of naturally started to happen because the songs were so I think emotionally linked that it didn't really matter if it was piano or guitar. 33:04.109 --> 33:06.712 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, my relationship to it isn't searching. 33:07.313 --> 33:08.875 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's that's so interesting. 33:09.836 --> 33:11.277 [SPEAKER_02]: And so that's so relatable. 33:11.357 --> 33:30.640 [SPEAKER_02]: I know it's like not that journalistically professional to like insert personal experiences in Taran, our interview, but the guitar player in my band has like encouraged me to like he's like, I noticed you play the guitar like you play harp and like that's what makes your guitar playing distinctive and lean into that like you're not going to be like every other player and you don't have to aspire to be 33:31.042 --> 33:35.229 [SPEAKER_02]: the most proficient in every single area of the instrument, you just have to play like yourself. 33:35.389 --> 33:36.111 [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly. 33:36.491 --> 33:37.553 [SPEAKER_03]: And that's freedom. 33:37.633 --> 33:45.286 [SPEAKER_03]: Like once you know what you sound like, those calls of people being like, would you come and play with me? 33:45.406 --> 33:47.810 [SPEAKER_03]: Would you play on this or aren't as daunting? 33:48.111 --> 33:53.400 [SPEAKER_03]: Cause you get to be like, either what I do works or it doesn't, and I'm not a jute box. 33:53.420 --> 33:54.822 [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not gonna sit here. 33:55.207 --> 34:02.139 [SPEAKER_03]: and figure out how to be somebody else, because that would be, that's somebody else's lifetime. 34:02.179 --> 34:03.682 [SPEAKER_03]: That's their game. 34:03.742 --> 34:04.703 [SPEAKER_03]: That's their game. 34:05.365 --> 34:08.510 [SPEAKER_03]: There's so many guitar players in town, like that is their thing. 34:08.690 --> 34:10.293 [SPEAKER_03]: Is learning how to, that they can do everything. 34:10.313 --> 34:13.198 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's the session players kind of, 34:14.039 --> 34:28.136 [SPEAKER_03]: work, but yeah, I so agree with that statement, that is the most, that has been the most exciting thing to me is when I get closer and closer to being like, that is my signature or like, that's my thumb prayer or something. 34:29.258 --> 34:41.633 [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, yeah, a lot of trial and error there, 34:42.035 --> 34:51.930 [SPEAKER_02]: feels really poignant to me because it feels like you've weaved together almost childlike observations with like contemporary reflections. 34:52.270 --> 34:57.879 [SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lyric that goes, I never could explain myself, which I think you can hear that from a child's point of view. 34:57.919 --> 35:00.763 [SPEAKER_02]: Like you can hear that from an adult's point of view from anyone's point of view. 35:00.803 --> 35:10.658 [SPEAKER_02]: So do you feel a tension between making yourself understood through the songs versus 35:11.363 --> 35:25.601 [SPEAKER_03]: There's nothing really private like I was just thinking about that today and and talking about the shame piece that we were just talking about in a few minutes ago, like I think I definitely have a lot of that coming up like. 35:27.403 --> 35:41.100 [SPEAKER_03]: That song, mommy, in particular, all of those lyrics came first before music and that never happens to me, but that made such a unique. 35:41.401 --> 35:55.865 [SPEAKER_03]: journaled out kind of and then the music was like this frustrating after thought where I was like how do I make this all work together and again another one of those songs that did not I'm together until we were recording it. 35:57.407 --> 35:59.230 [SPEAKER_03]: Which I love that experience. 35:59.490 --> 36:06.582 [SPEAKER_03]: I love that there's so much room in the recording process for there to be new revelations about things you've been working on for a while. 36:07.540 --> 36:15.452 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I try, I think it's so beautiful the more understood that you are, actually. 36:15.592 --> 36:32.737 [SPEAKER_03]: Like I love those lines that just crack open all of the ambiguity and that, you know, those first few pupplets are so much about, like describing this person that nobody else, like my audience isn't gonna know, right? 36:32.917 --> 36:36.703 [SPEAKER_03]: But I know this person's so intimately 36:37.814 --> 36:46.310 [SPEAKER_03]: and being on a frame to describe those scenes because they are relatable in some ways. 36:47.632 --> 36:53.443 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the most relatable thing is the confessional part of it, which is like I, 36:53.930 --> 37:09.981 [SPEAKER_03]: in all of this and all I just I've had a hard time articulating myself and and like since I was a kid I've always felt that way so I felt like yeah that that lyric I never could explain myself. 37:10.636 --> 37:15.303 [SPEAKER_03]: work so well with the next chorus that says about this person you always could explain yourself. 37:15.664 --> 37:16.745 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 37:16.865 --> 37:29.464 [SPEAKER_03]: And the juxtaposition of like how the other kind of cancels the other or you just feel like you're canceled out by in your struggle by that being the other person's strength or something. 37:31.768 --> 37:32.589 [SPEAKER_03]: That's heavy. 37:32.809 --> 37:33.270 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 37:33.370 --> 37:33.751 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 37:33.771 --> 37:40.120 [SPEAKER_03]: It's such a something I'm still thinking about and being like 37:40.808 --> 38:07.693 [SPEAKER_03]: the way that they move through the world and that is like strength for them shouldn't automatically make you feel you know smaller so that's definitely like something that I'm working on but the confession of that being a part of my story and my like weaknesses felt really important to say and yeah and hopefully relatable like this yeah the more 38:07.859 --> 38:19.885 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and there is a really, there's a great transparency on this record that in what's the song where you say like we might never forgive each other like it that that revelation and the acceptance of it is is radical. 38:20.907 --> 38:27.842 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then it maybe maybe does open up to actual forgiveness like I wonder if the piece before. 38:28.919 --> 38:33.371 [SPEAKER_03]: actual reconciliation is a bidding that you maybe don't want that. 38:34.454 --> 38:40.752 [SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe you realize that like your life cannot move forward without it. 38:42.014 --> 38:50.325 [SPEAKER_03]: Even if it's just a personal journey, but I remember singing those lyrics and again, that was a revelation of like this song is alive now. 38:51.607 --> 39:09.270 [SPEAKER_03]: I know what I'm saying and that meant something to me and that yeah, there's a lot of there's there was a few moments like that on the record where it was like finally like Something that was frozen in me kind of started to thought like I can't I can't go through something. 39:10.297 --> 39:12.501 [SPEAKER_03]: painful and articulate it at the same time. 39:12.601 --> 39:16.608 [SPEAKER_03]: So the moments in where it finally got articulated were like, where's the pen? 39:17.049 --> 39:19.934 [SPEAKER_03]: Quick, canceling all plans. 39:21.897 --> 39:22.458 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so fun. 39:22.498 --> 39:23.941 [SPEAKER_02]: That is very relatable. 39:23.961 --> 39:25.403 [SPEAKER_02]: That is amazing. 39:25.383 --> 39:27.205 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. 39:27.225 --> 39:29.668 [SPEAKER_02]: Music, musically I have a similar question. 39:29.728 --> 39:35.355 [SPEAKER_02]: We'll kind of in how you're talking about the surprising way that Mommy came together. 39:35.415 --> 39:38.659 [SPEAKER_02]: How did the puzzle get put together on invisible chalk? 39:38.679 --> 39:42.263 [SPEAKER_02]: Because that guitar riff is like an earworm immediately. 39:42.323 --> 39:47.629 [SPEAKER_02]: But then it's almost like a nursery rhyme of questions and verses and the vocal melody. 39:47.849 --> 39:55.238 [SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm curious how in what order and in what process did that the pieces of that song come together. 39:55.538 --> 39:59.605 [SPEAKER_03]: do you mean in recording or writing or both, both? 39:59.906 --> 40:06.417 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I kind of consider them part of the same process, but the more you want to say the better, I think people love to see behind the scenes. 40:06.517 --> 40:13.810 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think you're wise to consider them as a part of the same process, because I think that's very true. 40:15.433 --> 40:19.420 [SPEAKER_03]: Because the, yeah, the final revelations of the way the song should 40:19.636 --> 40:29.953 [SPEAKER_03]: feel and dance and communicate really do happen when you're documenting it, like in a real way that you're going to go back and listen to. 40:30.054 --> 40:38.067 [SPEAKER_03]: But one thing that my band and I did, so I was again in that sort of like song a week rhythm and that song happened. 40:38.147 --> 40:39.349 [SPEAKER_03]: I'd found this new tuning. 40:39.369 --> 40:42.775 [SPEAKER_03]: I was really excited about and I've been working in for a year and like 40:42.755 --> 41:12.542 [SPEAKER_03]: all the songs on guitar were written in it which is also another thing that's I've never been successful at like if I were to have been like okay I'm only writing the songs in this tuning they would have never happened but there was none of that pressure it just happened so um yeah so that song I found that little that little guitar part first and I was excited about it 41:13.417 --> 41:14.499 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, interesting. 41:14.519 --> 41:16.823 [SPEAKER_03]: That makes sense, which it doesn't always look like that. 41:16.843 --> 41:22.813 [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's almost like a new, a new element has entered the chat, the way the way that song unfolds. 41:22.993 --> 41:37.197 [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, so yes, this is actually crazy to talk about and remember, but yeah, the first happens and then found the B section and knew that I kind of wanted to repeat all of that again and then and then found those chords for the 41:38.206 --> 41:57.617 [SPEAKER_03]: the pre-bridge section, and then yeah, and by the time the actual bridge happens, there's this full key change, and I was just like, I was, again, it was like the metaphor of who's knocking at the door, I don't know until I'm writing this character into being, you know, that's how it, that moment felt. 41:57.717 --> 41:59.901 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, oh, this is where it wants to go. 42:00.001 --> 42:01.704 [SPEAKER_03]: And the lyrics were happening at the same time. 42:01.724 --> 42:05.530 [SPEAKER_03]: Again, that is such a rare thing. 42:05.510 --> 42:20.354 [SPEAKER_03]: And then what ended up happening was, you know, I had this sort of like journey of a song, and I sent it to my bandmates, and then we would get together, like like four weeks in a row, leading up to recording, we were just practicing everything. 42:20.394 --> 42:23.760 [SPEAKER_03]: But we didn't record. 42:24.441 --> 42:25.162 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no demos. 42:25.182 --> 42:27.045 [SPEAKER_03]: That was the really, really intense rule. 42:28.088 --> 42:34.997 [SPEAKER_03]: So when we got to the studio that like see like complicated song was already worked out at least in our muscle memory. 42:36.039 --> 42:42.427 [SPEAKER_03]: So we spent no time being like, is that the right part like we'd all kind of really worked out of part through just fine tuning it. 42:43.208 --> 42:56.526 [SPEAKER_03]: And then it was just about capturing the the I have to say that song sounds so complicated and that was probably the easiest when we recorded I think we like have to all of take three and maybe there's a splice of 42:56.692 --> 43:01.762 [SPEAKER_03]: for something but like it was just it was simple for some reason. 43:02.163 --> 43:02.964 [SPEAKER_02]: Massive flex. 43:03.045 --> 43:04.928 [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm sure it has to do with your process. 43:05.529 --> 43:06.191 [SPEAKER_02]: So interesting. 43:06.211 --> 43:14.447 [SPEAKER_02]: I just had the songwriter Kathleen Edwards on the podcast and we talked about that tension between getting to attach to a demo. 43:14.782 --> 43:30.482 [SPEAKER_02]: and knowing when to let it go, um, but actually on, you know, one of the most interesting things to me about revealer, which is, you know, it was a huge sensation and we could talk about that album alone for hours, but I love the demos that are on the Deluxe version. 43:30.502 --> 43:39.473 [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have any plans to release any early recordings from the new record or like, is that not part of this story? 43:39.740 --> 43:50.762 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there are any like there's there's a few voice memos that I had set to approach could be an interesting case that he did just like hear where the song originated. 43:51.147 --> 43:58.917 [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I had a friend be like, how did skeleton tree or skeleton tree come to happen because that song is so complicated. 43:58.977 --> 44:00.820 [SPEAKER_03]: And I sent her the demo version. 44:00.920 --> 44:03.964 [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, all of the pieces are there. 44:04.004 --> 44:06.828 [SPEAKER_03]: We just colored it in the things. 44:06.848 --> 44:11.734 [SPEAKER_03]: And I think if it was discovered as a band, it would have been really complicated. 44:11.934 --> 44:14.658 [SPEAKER_03]: But because it was just built into the fabric of the song. 44:14.678 --> 44:19.264 [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds so much more complicated than it actually was too hard. 44:19.919 --> 44:21.421 [SPEAKER_02]: So that could be a fun thing. 44:22.503 --> 44:22.964 [SPEAKER_02]: That is fun. 44:23.024 --> 44:27.852 [SPEAKER_02]: I really geek out on how the sausage gets made with recordings. 44:28.332 --> 44:30.496 [SPEAKER_02]: So it's cool to hear you peel back the layers. 44:31.037 --> 44:46.281 [SPEAKER_03]: And there's so much sweat that goes into it, the whole time you're like, oh, just like, or there isn't, or you're just like, some of my favorite masterpiece is are just like, of my favorite artists or very underthought, you know? 44:46.750 --> 44:48.271 [SPEAKER_03]: It's that's how it goes. 44:48.291 --> 44:49.132 [SPEAKER_03]: That dramatic of it. 44:49.773 --> 44:50.073 [SPEAKER_03]: I know. 44:50.233 --> 44:55.038 [SPEAKER_03]: It's very exciting. 44:55.058 --> 45:01.263 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's talk about this on week. 45:01.283 --> 45:08.010 [SPEAKER_02]: And broadly, whether it's something practical, something spiritual, something historical, what is the grand illusion? 45:09.891 --> 45:11.753 [SPEAKER_02]: You can answer however you want or pass. 45:11.853 --> 45:15.036 [SPEAKER_02]: I just that expression was like, it just grabbed my attention. 45:16.012 --> 45:44.027 [SPEAKER_03]: That's such a good question, the most honest answer is that I had no idea when it was being written and I think what I would equate to that line now is like the illusion of um of love, the illusion of love probably is the is what I would say or like the idea of forever. 45:45.796 --> 45:50.621 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, yeah, in permanence is a big theme in this record. 45:51.022 --> 45:59.251 [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, I think in relationships, especially when you're in love, you're like, there's no way this is ever gonna end. 46:00.051 --> 46:01.473 [SPEAKER_03]: You know, you can't foresee it. 46:01.593 --> 46:10.743 [SPEAKER_03]: And sometimes we try to see the ending to spare ourselves, but it is such a crazy thing when you don't foresee an ending and then it happens. 46:10.763 --> 46:13.626 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's where that lyric, 46:14.264 --> 46:14.805 [SPEAKER_03]: grand illusion. 46:14.825 --> 46:17.968 [SPEAKER_03]: And then the next line after that is it's me as I drive away. 46:18.008 --> 46:19.449 [SPEAKER_03]: I'll never see your hair go gray. 46:19.890 --> 46:21.632 [SPEAKER_03]: So I think those lines together. 46:21.652 --> 46:24.475 [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, yeah. 46:24.775 --> 46:35.647 [SPEAKER_02]: The illusion of love being shattered and not a place to so many things just having to let go of that illusion of permanence or the future or whatever you think it's going to look like. 46:36.167 --> 46:37.909 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we we experience death. 46:39.104 --> 46:41.487 [SPEAKER_03]: so many times before we actually die. 46:41.507 --> 46:48.755 [SPEAKER_03]: And I keep, I wonder if like all of the imitations of death or so much worse than actual death in the end. 46:49.235 --> 46:55.302 [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder if death will feel like a surprising relief. 46:55.322 --> 46:55.963 [SPEAKER_03]: You'll let me know. 46:56.584 --> 46:59.147 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, like, we'll do a follow-up interview. 47:00.208 --> 47:01.209 [SPEAKER_02]: Gets off heaven. 47:01.830 --> 47:03.171 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm dying before you. 47:04.147 --> 47:09.114 [SPEAKER_02]: Or, no, I mean, who's to say, I might already be there and I'll be like, hey girl, so how is it for you? 47:09.154 --> 47:12.739 [SPEAKER_02]: Where have you been? 47:12.759 --> 47:13.941 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my god, okay. 47:14.201 --> 47:18.287 [SPEAKER_02]: We're like, I'll have a transcendental podcast from the grave. 47:18.307 --> 47:20.309 [SPEAKER_02]: You want to rate the Franklin in conversation. 47:20.349 --> 47:22.953 [SPEAKER_02]: I believe this seat. 47:22.973 --> 47:27.960 [SPEAKER_02]: When saying of the album is so powerful, I think you're telling. 47:28.379 --> 47:34.354 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know all the personal details that are behind it, but it feels like a really intensifying story as it goes along. 47:34.394 --> 47:37.382 [SPEAKER_02]: And then it ends in the Plains I view. 47:37.422 --> 47:41.352 [SPEAKER_02]: So can you talk about how you went about putting the album together? 47:41.433 --> 47:42.034 [SPEAKER_02]: And like, 47:42.790 --> 47:49.164 [SPEAKER_02]: I imagine you went from a place of like, I have some songs that will become a record to like, I have a story now. 47:49.726 --> 47:50.688 [SPEAKER_02]: How did you get from A to B? 47:50.748 --> 47:57.183 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, thank you so much for reporting this out because this is the part I labored over the most was the deep and say, wow. 47:57.363 --> 48:00.951 [SPEAKER_03]: I don't usually try to worry about that while. 48:01.336 --> 48:01.757 [SPEAKER_03]: writing. 48:02.478 --> 48:09.187 [SPEAKER_03]: But also, I was writing as the story was kind of unfolding. 48:09.227 --> 48:11.911 [SPEAKER_03]: The very last song that I wrote for the record is Goodwill. 48:11.951 --> 48:24.508 [SPEAKER_03]: And I wrote it the first lyrics like flying to San Francisco for this 48:25.265 --> 48:43.628 [SPEAKER_03]: I started out the first song I had written for this record was my full name and wake was the second song and I was like these songs have something really special in the 48:44.013 --> 49:09.750 [SPEAKER_03]: That was, I just kind of went with that goal and decided I wouldn't be specific about how the story was going to unfold, but after the fact I was like, okay, there is no other song that can start off the record besides sure because I felt like it was like this very green falling in love story and I really liked how very quickly after that come scaleetry, which is a very like thorny 49:10.135 --> 49:30.642 [SPEAKER_03]: Like allusions been shattered kind of a thing like yes, I kind of feel like a shores like the opening of a horror movie where it's like a beautiful sunny and then suddenly it switches and you're like fuck okay, this is not going to be a joy ride and the rest of the record well my impression as a listener is it's like 49:30.622 --> 49:37.492 [SPEAKER_02]: this creation of a container or like it's like a theme and variations but it's like structure and then the shattering of it and then what comes next? 49:37.833 --> 49:38.153 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 49:38.274 --> 49:39.936 [SPEAKER_02]: That you're feeling throughout the album. 49:40.497 --> 49:41.458 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah that's beautifully. 49:41.478 --> 49:47.367 [SPEAKER_03]: That I think that's kind of what that motif kind of keeps saying which is shattering to form. 49:48.429 --> 49:55.920 [SPEAKER_03]: It starts with that and then there's another like halfway through the record it comes back and I 49:57.183 --> 50:08.103 [SPEAKER_03]: like sitting and thinking about how the stir was unfolding in like, yeah, I think there's scale of tree and then mummy comes after that, which is like an intense one and then take two. 50:08.183 --> 50:15.597 [SPEAKER_03]: And but then it goes back to like, I think when you're going through heartbreak, there are pockets of like, 50:16.808 --> 50:27.966 [SPEAKER_03]: confession and like devastation and then there's anger and then after anger the sort of like after shock of that is kind of back to the original play origin of love. 50:29.144 --> 50:37.337 [SPEAKER_03]: You're like, damn, I like, in order to have this much anger for it's something I would have had to have had so much love, too. 50:37.698 --> 50:38.619 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, yes. 50:39.040 --> 50:41.463 [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's where my full name comes back. 50:42.165 --> 50:45.991 [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like a very sweet and sad love song. 50:46.572 --> 50:56.367 [SPEAKER_03]: And then I think, yeah, and then rolls on, and there's more preturists path, and then it kind of gets to the best of us, which is, again, 50:56.347 --> 50:58.351 [SPEAKER_03]: Not a conclusion in my mind to me. 50:58.391 --> 51:03.341 [SPEAKER_03]: It's just like an open-ended question of like maybe deep down. 51:03.361 --> 51:10.975 [SPEAKER_03]: We are all accidentally selfish and we are all doing our best. 51:11.797 --> 51:13.039 [SPEAKER_03]: So like what do you do with that? 51:14.482 --> 51:15.364 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah both are true. 51:15.644 --> 51:16.566 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 51:16.681 --> 51:41.478 [SPEAKER_02]: Totally damn I'm excited to listen to this album again just like knowing this narrative in mind It's a really it's a really deep record and it's an exciting record like being a fan of yours for the past two albums It feels like a departure emotionally in a very cool way But I want to touch on your first album actually and that question that you at the time we're repeating to yourself Which is who are you now? 51:42.159 --> 51:43.561 [SPEAKER_02]: How would you answer that question today? 51:44.463 --> 51:45.304 [SPEAKER_02]: That's a great question 51:46.685 --> 51:47.306 [SPEAKER_02]: You wrote it. 51:47.326 --> 51:49.147 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't. 51:49.167 --> 51:50.068 [SPEAKER_02]: Though you wrote it. 51:50.088 --> 51:50.529 [SPEAKER_03]: I wrote it. 51:51.069 --> 51:52.510 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm right, exactly. 51:52.530 --> 52:00.097 [SPEAKER_03]: I would probably say a TVD or yeah, TVD. 52:00.698 --> 52:03.481 [SPEAKER_03]: I tell you, I still don't fucking totally know. 52:03.501 --> 52:09.806 [SPEAKER_03]: I think I have a little bit more of an idea around my legs and dislikes. 52:10.587 --> 52:15.932 [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, she's seven years later, still flandering a little bit. 52:16.975 --> 52:18.577 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, as you should be. 52:18.617 --> 52:46.695 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I imagine that as somebody who won the Grammy for Best Book album earlier in their career, there's like so many expectations about what you'll do next and where you're headed in terms of being a touring artist and a recording artist and a songwriter, but when you think about who you wanna be as a musician and what you think about a legacy at all, like think about yourself in 30 years, what are some of the things that you wanna be part 52:47.182 --> 52:48.143 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, what do you want it to look like? 52:50.206 --> 52:55.734 [SPEAKER_03]: I want my legacy to be full of songs. 52:55.774 --> 52:59.419 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, those are the, that is what matters to me the most. 53:00.180 --> 53:08.072 [SPEAKER_03]: And maybe I would equate it to the metaphor being used for if songs are finished or not. 53:08.112 --> 53:09.814 [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I don't want it ever to be finished. 53:10.755 --> 53:14.100 [SPEAKER_03]: I want it to just keep finding different ways to be, 53:14.553 --> 53:21.782 [SPEAKER_03]: alive and scared and curious in the in the absolute privilege that it is to get to make music. 53:22.143 --> 53:31.935 [SPEAKER_03]: And like I even just this week found myself complaining about it and then pulling myself out of it and going like this is this is so lucky. 53:31.995 --> 53:42.889 [SPEAKER_03]: It's so wonderful to be able to feel all these things 53:44.236 --> 53:51.547 [SPEAKER_03]: to be surrounded by friends who are on the same mission and like, to take that for granted is a misdoperability. 53:52.027 --> 53:54.591 [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, that's what I want. 53:54.671 --> 54:02.683 [SPEAKER_03]: I want my legacy to be full of songs and risk and, you know, artistic depth, I think. 54:03.794 --> 54:04.435 [SPEAKER_02]: you're on your way. 54:04.455 --> 54:07.218 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much. 54:08.058 --> 54:14.285 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you are a world-spanning artist, but you're also a local to LA. 54:14.825 --> 54:19.550 [SPEAKER_02]: When you're home and off the road, what are the things that you're trying to take in? 54:20.091 --> 54:21.672 [SPEAKER_02]: Are you seeing live music? 54:21.813 --> 54:22.714 [SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to museums? 54:22.734 --> 54:23.755 [SPEAKER_02]: Like are you thrifting? 54:23.875 --> 54:24.836 [SPEAKER_02]: What's your life like? 54:25.376 --> 54:27.979 [SPEAKER_02]: And what are your creative inputs while you're home? 54:28.229 --> 54:31.473 [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so right now I'm doing a lot of reading. 54:31.533 --> 54:33.275 [SPEAKER_03]: It was fundamental. 54:33.315 --> 54:36.318 [SPEAKER_03]: It's fundamental, you know it. 54:36.999 --> 54:40.143 [SPEAKER_03]: There's no way, there's no way I'm going to pay without it. 54:40.443 --> 54:42.265 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm reading, I'm running. 54:42.906 --> 54:44.027 [SPEAKER_03]: I've gotten in the running. 54:44.288 --> 54:55.080 [SPEAKER_03]: I had, this is like for runners out though, this is nothing but I ran a 10K this year, which is like really exciting for me and really would love to run a half marathon. 54:55.195 --> 55:00.261 [SPEAKER_02]: That is amazing and a 10k is a nice, meaty exercise for your heart. 55:00.502 --> 55:08.391 [SPEAKER_03]: Well, and like the inside of my thighs were totally blistered, so that's a gotta count for something. 55:08.431 --> 55:09.933 [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good sign. 55:10.074 --> 55:15.280 [SPEAKER_03]: It was like the measurement of distance in time. 55:15.496 --> 55:18.181 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so that I've read my bike a lot. 55:18.201 --> 55:28.077 [SPEAKER_03]: I live on this bike path essentially along the LA River and I'm there every day and writing and I'm trying to expand my horizons at the moment. 55:28.137 --> 55:33.927 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really getting into cooking and the New York Times cook app is just like, 55:34.767 --> 55:35.328 [SPEAKER_03]: filling me up. 55:35.388 --> 55:42.501 [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like there's I get so much satisfaction from watching ingredients blend together. 55:42.521 --> 55:43.483 [SPEAKER_03]: I know that's weird. 55:43.503 --> 55:44.224 [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe it's not weird. 55:44.265 --> 55:46.529 [SPEAKER_03]: Probably the most unique thing anyone can ever say about. 55:46.569 --> 55:53.061 [SPEAKER_03]: I love watching like all these different elements become one color, one unique color. 55:53.141 --> 55:55.686 [SPEAKER_03]: So I just registered for that for myself through the day. 55:55.706 --> 55:57.028 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, I really love 55:57.869 --> 56:04.496 [SPEAKER_03]: measuring things and putting it together and then getting to taste it and make I've been trying out a lot of things on my friends. 56:04.836 --> 56:06.658 [SPEAKER_03]: That's really fun. 56:06.678 --> 56:08.380 [SPEAKER_02]: Spoken like a producer, honestly. 56:08.400 --> 56:12.183 [SPEAKER_02]: I end all the elements put them together, make it tasty. 56:13.545 --> 56:19.211 [SPEAKER_02]: Before I let you go, can I do a lightning round of quick questions that you don't think about too hard? 56:19.691 --> 56:20.532 [SPEAKER_02]: Just shoot from the head. 56:20.932 --> 56:21.273 [SPEAKER_03]: Love it. 56:22.314 --> 56:22.594 [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. 56:22.996 --> 56:26.541 [SPEAKER_02]: What is one beauty or skin care product you can not live without? 56:27.242 --> 56:28.484 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I rely on a gadget. 56:29.686 --> 56:30.126 [SPEAKER_02]: Correct. 56:31.628 --> 56:33.892 [SPEAKER_02]: What is one song you wish you wrote? 56:35.734 --> 56:37.277 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, um, the kiss by Judy Sil. 56:38.318 --> 56:39.700 [SPEAKER_02]: Oh. 56:39.720 --> 56:40.561 [SPEAKER_02]: I love Judy Sil. 56:41.122 --> 56:43.666 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, what animal do you think you were in a past life? 56:44.587 --> 56:45.228 [SPEAKER_02]: A blue hair in. 56:46.510 --> 56:46.790 [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. 56:47.451 --> 56:48.733 [SPEAKER_02]: What's your coffee order? 56:48.899 --> 56:50.141 [SPEAKER_03]: or over black. 56:50.161 --> 56:51.203 [SPEAKER_03]: What's your favorite chord? 56:51.724 --> 56:52.706 [SPEAKER_03]: That'd be G minor. 56:54.028 --> 56:55.331 [SPEAKER_03]: What's your least favorite chord? 56:55.371 --> 56:55.852 [SPEAKER_03]: Talk shit. 56:56.473 --> 56:57.555 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm a G major. 56:57.755 --> 57:12.763 [SPEAKER_03]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 57:12.743 --> 57:16.971 [SPEAKER_02]: What is the best age to be? 57:17.011 --> 57:20.517 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, I like every age that I've been currently. 57:20.658 --> 57:21.499 [SPEAKER_03]: I really like 28. 57:21.619 --> 57:23.042 [SPEAKER_03]: It's good age. 57:23.062 --> 57:25.026 [SPEAKER_02]: 20 is a really good age. 57:25.727 --> 57:28.913 [SPEAKER_02]: Um, what is your most useful non-musical skill? 57:29.554 --> 57:31.718 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, God, I don't know that I'm very skilled. 57:31.858 --> 57:33.040 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really good at washing dishes. 57:33.080 --> 57:34.824 [SPEAKER_03]: I'm really good at washing dishes. 57:35.184 --> 57:35.545 [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. 57:35.761 --> 57:36.542 [SPEAKER_02]: that's foundational. 57:37.043 --> 57:43.452 [SPEAKER_02]: And finally, who is a California band or artist or musician that you think everyone should know about and listen to? 57:43.712 --> 57:45.034 [SPEAKER_03]: Ooh, what a great question. 57:45.114 --> 57:45.835 [SPEAKER_03]: A California. 57:46.235 --> 57:49.780 [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I think Sam Weber, Sam Weber is an artist. 57:50.481 --> 57:52.404 [SPEAKER_03]: We wrote a few songs on my record together. 57:52.444 --> 57:54.307 [SPEAKER_03]: He plays on a few of those songs. 57:54.447 --> 57:58.933 [SPEAKER_03]: Just what I mean, I have to say he's Canadian, but 57:58.913 --> 58:03.962 [SPEAKER_03]: He's been known as like a California resident, so I think he gets he gets a pass. 58:04.543 --> 58:07.027 [SPEAKER_02]: We we allow it here on basically. 58:07.047 --> 58:09.671 [SPEAKER_02]: You can become local to your local music scene. 58:09.852 --> 58:10.272 [SPEAKER_02]: There you go. 58:10.473 --> 58:15.662 [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody go get ace when it comes out October 10th for forecast records. 58:16.443 --> 58:19.047 [SPEAKER_02]: Madison you have been such a great guest. 58:19.067 --> 58:21.732 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for going deep on this record with me. 58:22.083 --> 58:23.786 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for having me. 58:24.667 --> 58:30.196 [SPEAKER_00]: This episode of Basic Folk was produced by Anthony Cabrera, Dietrich Strauss composes our music. 58:30.216 --> 58:32.780 [SPEAKER_00]: Basic Folk is a production of the Bluegrass situation. 58:33.161 --> 58:35.104 [SPEAKER_00]: You can find all of our episodes there. 58:35.525 --> 58:38.069 [SPEAKER_00]: You can check us out on basic folk.com. 58:38.089 --> 58:49.187 [SPEAKER_00]: On folkalli.com or folkalli's mobile app, you can search for Basic Folk on the Serious XM app, or you can listen wherever you get your shows. 58:49.353 --> 58:59.086 [SPEAKER_02]: send this episode to a friend who really wants to learn to play the piano, or a colleague who has mixed feelings about Los Angeles. 59:02.891 --> 59:08.138 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening all the way to the end, as always we love you so much, we love you!