[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, confidants!
[SPEAKER_00]: It's me, Kelsey Dera, the host of Confidently Institute of the Podcasts will read to the teacher.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am walking around my apartment because if I go to my office at the podcast studio, you're going to just see um fellow BuzzFeeder slash friend slash editor of the documentary Steven Canter, editing our trailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you doing Steven?
[SPEAKER_00]: This for boys being worked to the max to the brim because our trailer for our documentary drops today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully, if we make it on time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I figured a good episode for this week in order to remind y'all what we're doing this about and what it's for because you are the company dawns, getting the scoop ahead of time is to replay
[SPEAKER_00]: The episode that started this all, five years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you haven't been a confidant for that long, maybe you haven't even heard this episode before, maybe because it's been five years you have forgotten what this was all about, but this is an episode about Marley List and her journey through the criminal justice system in choosing restorative justice to resolve her sexual assault crime instead of a punitive model.
[SPEAKER_00]: This will come out in the morning and then the trailer will drop in the afternoon and I can't wait for you guys to see it and bear with me as the premiere is now literally one month away.
[SPEAKER_00]: We are selling tickets starting today and you can actually get the discounted version of the ticket today for only a week.
[SPEAKER_00]: So for the next seven days you can buy the screening ticket for $10.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then me and Marley are doing a live Q&A after the screening called like an after party.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you want to buy a ticket for that, you can also add it on.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, we in grind mode, baby, we are just at the max of post production that it could possibly be.
[SPEAKER_00]: All for a great cause of course, and for a project that it is important and necessary and
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched, obviously, this episode back when we were editing the doc and it's just so funny like how much hasn't changed and how much has and even just hearing myself and watching myself as an interviewer and how that led to me being a filmmaker and a documentary one because I love hearing people's stories.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love being a conduit of information.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think you guys need a refresher on that story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, enjoy this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for being with me as we get through this premiere.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the coolest, biggest thing I've done in my life so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really excited for you guys to see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And exactly, oh my, holy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, so we'll see you next week.
[SPEAKER_00]: Copy that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love what you put in your email and you're like some other identity type words you're welcome to use is 25 years old queer Canadian Jewish.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that is very important for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: We at some people are like, we don't care about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I want like all the verbage announced to introduce our guests and then okay so like I guess I can start and like I want to also put this
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I was how am I.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I so scared to talk about somebody else's trauma?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like why am I so nervous?
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, can I be a can I be so honest?
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, I played the realness.
[SPEAKER_01]: I totally listen to your podcast episode of like you sharing about emotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: for this because I was nervous and then I was like, no, I need to like, humanize you and your story and just like get on the same page in that way and I just like, yeah, I really appreciate you and I was like, oh my god, are you kidding?
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, especially with something like this where it's like two women talking to each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I've always said like the reason why I do this podcast is because I feel such a sense of
[SPEAKER_00]: Promoting or discussing makes me feel very out of control.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, for instance, a conversation like this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like obviously we want to put all the trigger warnings out there that this episode does deal with like I mean it's scared to say the R word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why?
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are I scared about?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's yeah, but I think it's really yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just I appreciate realness and like yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: through for everyone listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like, hello.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, we just need to say, this episode deals with rape, sexual assault.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's some mention of suicide, suicidal ideation, mental health.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, we've got that out of the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Trigger warnings, all the trigger warnings.
[SPEAKER_00]: So now, we can just talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, you guys, I want to introduce, I guess, for this week, I actually got an email from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like the header that
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, just captured me where you said, I think it was like, um, why I decided to spend eight hours with my rapists instead of going to court.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, what the fuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you guys, this is Marley Liss.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is a women's embodiment coach and author of a Gorge book.
[SPEAKER_00]: International retreat facilitator and the executive director of the rehumanized movement and we'll get into what that is and why you founded the organization with your mother whose name is Barbie which like
[SPEAKER_00]: amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So your sexual assault case became the first, one of the first in North America to conclude with restorative justice, which is what this episode is all about restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Marley, my first question simply is, what the fuck is restorative justice?
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, what is restorative justice?
[SPEAKER_01]: So so ironically, like I just learned about restorative justice last year or just over a year ago, which is when I put this all in motion to make this a thing for my own case.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not claiming to be a restorative justice expert.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, it's an alternative to the punitive system.
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of focusing on punishing the perpetrator, um, focused on the harm that was caused and repairing and addressing that harm.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, the work I've been off-banded right away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like that's what restorative justice is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if you Google it, because that's the first thing I did, it gives kind of like a controversial take, I guess you could say.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you did an article with BuzzFeed News.
[SPEAKER_00]: Shout out to Laura and we'll put that article below.
[SPEAKER_00]: In her article, she states, although it's based in centuries, all practices called together from various traditions.
[SPEAKER_00]: restorative justice is still seen as a radical and controversial alternative to traditional crime and punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess we can just get right into it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess my first question is like, why the fuck would anyone ever want to do restorative justice, especially when it comes to rape and sexual assault?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that people are really confused about that question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's a huge perception that survivors would never ever want it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, after all these articles came out about my own story, I received emails from like hundreds, maybe thousands of people I want this or wishing you about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's so many reasons that this is better for us in some cases, not all cases, but it's really a survivor-centered process.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is like it's, and honestly, I would say like if our alternative is court, like the punitive court, I would straight up say that court is abusive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's carry as fuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that was one of my questions.
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, what's the crown because you're Canadian.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, crown.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's cross-secure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, just for all the Americans out there, that's what that means.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, like, let's go back to the beginning and you and I kind of emailed off thread and again, I want to like put out all the trigger warnings and hopefully that I can use the right verb edge and please forgive me if I'm, you know, if I don't get the verb a right and feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: free to please correct me, but you and I had emailed off that a little bit about how much you want to talk about your case and your assault and I guess for the people listening it would be good just to kind of hear in your own words how you describe what happened to you that but in that case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so in 2016 I was raped by a stranger and it was like a really
[SPEAKER_01]: Undeniably horrible rape, I think all rapes are probably undeniably horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: This lasted about four hours and it was like really weird part of what was really weird.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like after I said no a bunch of times I just froze.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just kept going.
[SPEAKER_01]: But every so often
[SPEAKER_01]: You would be like, this is so messed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so, so, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then he would continue and it was so confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that, my brain in half.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was just like, are you feeling, and like some level of empathy, wow, weakness and then continuing, but also feeling, empathy like what, what, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, he like covered my mouth at certain points and yeah, it was really I wrestled with a lot of self blame because I was drunk.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's such a big thing for women and that's such a thing that gets used against us in court and all that crap.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that's that's basically what that experience was, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's important to note because we will kind of dive in later about sort of like this drinking culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, like a victim, shaming and victim blaming.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, toxic masculinity and all of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but going back to your case specifically.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I read in one of the articles that right after the soul or am I supposed to be saying a ledger to solve that's the other question I had for later.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like, it is what it is, but like legally, am I supposed to say a legend?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't give a shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's my podcast, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like personally, I am not a fan of that word because I'm just like that word is like steeped and skepticism.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just negates everything I'm about to say.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, so I don't say it, and I prefer when people don't say it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when people do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I imagine that, like with this bus, you'd use article, it was probably different because they have like, you know, fucking fancy lawyers and all that shit that tell them what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so after the assault, you went and did a rape kit.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I...
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, read about the questions you had to endure while doing that process and how maybe that could have been the start of you going like, wait a minute, I'm doing all the things that I'm told I'm supposed to be doing yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why am I already feeling
[SPEAKER_00]: a blamed even after I just went through this traumatic event.
[SPEAKER_00]: So can you maybe talk a little bit about that process of the rape kit and the questions that you received?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, one of the most horrible things was that, like, and this is quite common, apparently like, the nurses were under staff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to wait 24 hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least I don't shower, don't change.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, literal, like, cement on the heat.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just wait.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, just this list of reasons that people don't report because you have to do so much, and this is why I'm like, these are all reasons of why I feel a sort of justice is more ideal, or more kind.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, the actual nurse who did my rape kit was like really lovely, but it was a really horrible process, and then basically they said to me,
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, do you want to report or not?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was kind of like, well, I don't want nothing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to just like go home and watch Netflix and how could I even, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I was like, I guess, all report.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and that's like the the police statement part is probably where you saw those questions because there's
[SPEAKER_01]: horrible and it's constantly like trying to disprove you or it's a confusing enough to like throw off your narrative.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so fresh and I'm like still hung over and true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say like being hung over just at the anxiety that comes with that alone, coupled with I'm assuming male police officers and their whole job is to investigate if a crime was committed and I don't really know that like how much empathy or emotion is allowed to be involved in that job when like in that situation and
[SPEAKER_00]: for you to not have that comfort.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like my first ideas, like why don't they include like a therapist or someone or a counselor in those sorts of situations at a hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: But of course, I mean, like, God, that's a dream world, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember like now that you say that, I'm like, one of the questions they asked me was literally how many thrusts per minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what we're talking world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who knows that in in the most like consensual experience, who knows that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, why does that matter?
[SPEAKER_00]: If it's faster or slower, does that change the situation?
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I mentioned, you went through the regular routine questions of like how much had you had to drink, what were you wearing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Just all the shit that like absolutely does not matter to what the end result is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I read that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you had the choice to be able to move forward with a, and tell me if I'm getting this word right, but like with a trial, with a,
[SPEAKER_00]: prosecution with the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were like, they were like, yes, you were raped and now we can move on.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they were not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, were raped.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, there's enough evidence for us to move on to trial to see if you were raped.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also feel like it's important to say, I really want to write an article on how the punitive trial is the least consensual in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's like, you say, yes, you're like, okay, I'm going to report.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you say yes, but you have no idea what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I walked down a three year path of miles and all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no support given to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be different in the States, but I probably know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's probably not.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I very get no defense, no legal support is completely in the dark about what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was told things like, you know, Marley, like, you have to answer every question they ask.
[SPEAKER_01]: You understand no matter how uncomfortable it makes you or you're seen as non-cooperative and you could charge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's like threatening you it's like no fucking one I mean these are the absolute core stories that we hear and we never we I think we don't ever have the chance to personalize them which is like why I'm so grateful you reached out because You only hear about this shit right you never imagine actually going through it yourself and I have to imagine at that point you know it's
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, my first question was why they'll fuck would you do a sort of justice, but I feel like even to this point, which is just the entryway into the punitive system, you're already like fuck this like no wonder restorative justice sounds like such a better option.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I love what you said about it being so the survivor centered and I, I'm sorry if I flip it between victim and survivor, I'm working on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to ask about the rape kit with sort of justice with that process specifically to a sexual assault or harassment or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: RJ allows restorative justice does that does that process matter in doing restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you need a certain amount of evidence to move forward with something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a really good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's something that's really important to say is like to my knowledge.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the first time this has happened through the legal system in North America.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had no pressure girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, something my lawyer said because I ended up seeking out a lawyer and keep in mind like, I've no one was telling me about restorative justice, which side no, again, I'm not sure about the states, but it's in victims' bill of rights in Canada that you're supposed to be informed about restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: right away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know anyone who has had that experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so to even be talking about this being like the first, and you mentioned that you had never been given even the option of restorative justice, how did you hear about it in design?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you know what, fuck the traditional system, I'm going to go the survivor centric route.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so so I did the punitive thing and I want to say side note to like my focus the year after rape was not on like the justice outcome I was visioning it was like I need to survive.
[SPEAKER_01]: very much like I was deeply deeply depressed and like it was just like I would break out in hives all the time and just like shake and it was really horrible and I think I shared with you like at one point I was thinking about taking my life and I would say that
[SPEAKER_01]: going to punitive trial worsened any progress I had made significantly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically I did the preliminary trial, which is where they decide is there enough evidence for us to go to like a legit cameras in the room trial.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was on the stand for like five hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have like my stand was just like looking at the ground.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like looking at the ground, the defense is saying like the worst, like just opts again, like questions like her own it and how could he access that whole if you were lying in the position you said you were lying in.
[SPEAKER_00]: How these fields just never had sex before, I have to imagine that they're just like nunders like like, if you want to make it happen, it's going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if they don't like curious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like there from the for themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, okay, but it's a platform.
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that work?
[SPEAKER_00]: And could you explain to us?
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just wondering, just for fun, just for fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you were like, again, fuck this, I imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was so, so horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And honestly, I was like, I feel like I'm pretty badass and strong and I was just gonna say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember I had sought out like an hour of free legal support of this like women's organization and they were like here we're going to help you prepare for trial and they asked me a test question and I did not have one word.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, can you describe what happened then I and I was like, and I was like, and I was like, I'm going to throw up on the stand like I'm just going to throw up and then cry and then nothing's ever going to happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's for you brutal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: This, this center you went to where they the ones that kind of were like, oh, no, no one, no effort.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I discovered an omit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically after the preliminary trial, I was again just like, I need to focus on my own healing because
[SPEAKER_01]: that whole process was still going and just like in particular it wasn't happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then about a year later, so now it had been three years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, this was just last winter, just last one, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was subpoenaed for the criminal trial.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at this point, I was like, I think I'm going to drop the tried toists because I like I don't want to do this anymore and I remembered that I had met like this is so ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember that I met a woman when I was traveling in Portugal and she was Germany and she mentioned that sometimes they do it differently in Germany.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I want to say to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, so I didn't know about restorative justice at all, but I had said to some like close friends and like a therapist, I had said like, if this was my world, I wouldn't do this whole insane process.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just meet with this human.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a big, I hate to say like a peeling part of restorative justice, but you mentioned like they do it differently elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had no idea about restorative justice until I read your email.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't, I don't know if they do it all over the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it's something just in Canada or, you know, you're the first, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the fact that you really
[SPEAKER_00]: get to say what you want to say and do what you want to do and it feels like shouldn't that be how it is in all instances.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the government shouldn't be in control of your healing and you can only do so much outside of yourself.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, outside of court, but once it's involved in the crown, that's just cool to say it felt like you were then completely at the will of the government and what they wanted to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, where is your control in that whole situation you have done versus restorative justice, which probably was founded by women.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: It really also focuses on humanizing the assaulter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, like they don't just become another number in a jailhouse where probably no education or healing is done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so, so when you heard when you found out that this was an option, you had to make it so that the government who was trying to do it this one way would legally allow this other thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so so one thing just to clarify is like please.
[SPEAKER_01]: through the legal system for sexual violence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: This happens all the time for like shoplifting and like youth crimes, and that kind of like a like an imagined smaller, like maybe even like custody stuff mediation, but this is different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, so basically when I reached out to her, she was like, oh, it's called restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, okay, I started doing some research.
[SPEAKER_01]: I literally put in my Instagram story, has anyone heard a restorative justice?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the fuck up.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a full on like, you're doing, you're like a lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: At this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give it a bar.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone responded, which got me connected with
[SPEAKER_01]: this amazing lawyer named Jeff Carolyn and he's like they connected me with him because he's written and like been a big advocate for restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically I reached out to him and I was like I need support and oh good for you for you even just fucking being able to do that period.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I feel like it's probably the most badass moment of my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So first I met with the lawyer for like 10 minutes and I was just like, this is what I want and he's like, okay, this is the game plan.
[SPEAKER_01]: We go, we meet with the prosecutor and we tell them what you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, don't get your hopes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you'll get shut down every, every afternoon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're just real.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so a really like miraculous and important and like dramatic part of the story is that they were passing off my case from one crown to a different crown.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were both in the room in order to like make that transition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, which like just they both have to agree to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of, so so this is why it's like dramatic because the whole makeup strategy, but this is where the music of like abs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is where it gets kind of like TV or film.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like basically I I went in and I'm like kind of a hippie chick and I was like wearing a long red skirt and I had feathers in my hair so they were probably like not taking me seriously at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, I went in and so they were these two crowns.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, I want to do a restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And right away, one of the crowns was like, why is scared of criminal trial?
[SPEAKER_01]: You're strong enough to do criminal trial.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to do criminal trial.
[SPEAKER_01]: Glad we had this talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my lawyer was like, I think, more than we had like a different vision in mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then the other crown who's named Kara and she's now on our board of directors and she's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, Marlene, what's your dream vision for your justice outcome?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, that would make you woman in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the first time since this very happened that someone gave a shit about what I wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fucking fuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, fuck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Three years.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was the first time someone in an official legal position fucking asked you what you wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: It literally gives me chills like my armpit hair just grew like half an inch because I'm like in rage and emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just started my period today.
[SPEAKER_00]: So shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, sister is up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fuck, don't worry.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was sweating.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a wreck this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like I've read all of the articles, but yet still I'm like.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're like, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's what I want.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I said what I wanted and so crown who shall not be named was like, um, and again, this is a really like, are you kidding me moment?
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, you know, morally with the me to move, man, people would want to see rapist locked up for a longer amount of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was my bad ass moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, so you're using the me to move meant to silence my voice, sis.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm snapping as hard as I fucking can into the microphone, because that isn't saying that what asked backwards psychology of, like, you should be a voice for, you know, in a way you're doing something so radical and so revolutionary.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were really taking a chance on doing something opposite that would have even a strong, if not strong.
[SPEAKER_00]: good for fucking you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they agreed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like, okay, sis.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then, and then her other narrative, which I think is a lot of people's narrative is like, oh, sweetie, like, don't you understand that rape is bad?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, out of everyone in this room, my definitely know that rape is bad.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and again, my thing is like,
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that rape is so bad that we need to consider alternatives because what we're doing isn't working.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like sexual violence on the only areas of crime that like it has not dropped in the past 30 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And recidivism like people reoffending after.
[SPEAKER_01]: incarceration is so likely and people usually get acquitted anyways.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I have to start here about just like the difference.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's not so much different in Canada, but the police ultimately, it's estimated that only 5% of sexual assault in Canada are reported to police and of those global investigation found that 20% are deemed unfounded, meaning police have decided a crime did not occur.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're looking at these stats, like, first of all, I may not even have a chance.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're telling me, even though a crime was committed and I have enough evidence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for you to have so much empathy for the assaulter, I think is also where my brain is kind of like, I don't know that I would be able to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's probably something you get told a lot, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally, and I think like there's so much to that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But honestly, I'd say that my biggest drive in this was like, when I was suicidal, I was like considering that because I didn't want to live in a world where we're dehumanizing each other like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was like, what world do I want to live in?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I decided to keep living.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, what world do I want to live in?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, it's not one where I like dehumanize that person right back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's it's one where that cycle of violence stops because my belief is like, okay, what if he did go to jail?
[SPEAKER_01]: He would just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: have a horrible time, be super exposed just so much more violence, sit in like immense shame, probably, hopefully, and then I'm going to get out a few years later and like be very, very likely to reoffend.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's like when does this shit stop?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, to me, I was like, it's really about breaking this, this cycle of violence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so just in case I, we hadn't said it, what you were asking for was for the assault her would have to do very intense weekly monthly daily, supervised, written about therapy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like can you tell me what exactly you wanted from this person rather than like the process I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I wanted him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have that specific version of it, but I wanted him to go to therapy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted it to be extensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my thing was like, I want him to heal whatever shit caused him to do this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I want us to do the restorative circle which we've got peace where we actually meet and like circle and this is the process that we obviously had that lasted like eight hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and that you know to even.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a double-inch sword because it's like you have the control, but you still have to go through now the emotional healing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I think what happens a lot of times is when people either, you know, their cases dismiss or they're not believe where they don't even go to report is a lot of repression, a lot of disassociation trauma that comes down later in the line.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so by you saying like this is what I want to happen legally,
[SPEAKER_00]: We are actively and publicly choosing to show what emotional traumatic healing looks like between two people whose society's deems that are supposed to fucking hate each other or we get that beautiful news clipping of someone going, I forgive them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that's...
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so sensationalized where this I feel like is so much harder because I know another thing is people would say, like, restorative justice is going easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, no, they should do jail.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, anyone that listens to this podcast knows that that's not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, by the fucked up justice system and I'm sure it's just as crazy in Canada as it is in America, but exactly like you said that nothing would get solved there if not it would get worse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so,
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the process of what that looked like of knowing he was going to therapy and that you had this like, big fucking circle thing coming up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what a fuck.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[UNKNOWN]: Um.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so so basically it was like we left that meeting and then it was kind of like, okay, these crowns are essentially kind of like fighting for this case and if one of them gets it it'll happen and if the other does it won't.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it obviously did end up happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to say too, like when I got the phone call and my lawyer was like, we got a guess for doing restorative justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, that's the most beautiful moment in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was feeling moment of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I like.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the biggest trauma losses for me was voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, my voice does not matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can say, no, and nobody's going to care.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was like, I just asked the system to regroup itself for me, and I was heard, and I was so healing.
[SPEAKER_01]: and just to like know that there is this potential for him to actually change.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, you know this person, but like, I don't, yeah, I want.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want someone to like really like that and to live like that and to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like deeply deeply deeply healing, basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, we got a guess for a sort of justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's starting there if you write away.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will not do this circle unless he gets to a point where he can take full accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but like hard stuff, because I wrote this down and I like bolded it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that you had to wait till he was ready, hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know that, again, like, you were just a better, different person than I am.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, how were you able to go like, I will wait until he is ready to do this circle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it wouldn't work, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: If he wasn't, you wouldn't get what you wanted, or, or,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because it wasn't really like once he's ready, we'll have the circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was more like, well, the circle will happen like if he's willing to take accountability, but also it was like the circle will happen when you're ready for it to happen, Marley, and I needed like six months like I
[SPEAKER_01]: I call it like a celebration tour like I was actually until about a month before the circle when I got like very stressed and nervous and like oh um like this sit like four, five, whatever six months after I got that call I was like in full celebration mode like I felt like
[SPEAKER_01]: This like there's this like little girl in me who like stopped believing in magic and love when trauma and trauma and trauma happened and then this was like, no, like anything you want to happen like your dreams can come true like living in a healing world like so I don't know it was such a deep it was so deeply meaningful for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like that's when I did my like Oregon California adventure and I was just so happy and then and then I got a month before I was like holy shit like this is terrifying and I think what's important to say is like because someone might be like oh does that mean like restorative justice isn't good and then like at the end of the day we're still talking about how to deal with rape.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's never gonna feel great and in a completely of the world we don't have to talk about justice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it's because it's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it kind of feels to like the punitive system is what it is that's the standard if we take it step back into survivor centric healing, it feels like there's a sort of justice and for it to take even a step back further, which hopefully is the world in which we're having is like instead we're teaching boys how to not write, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: But this feels like a huge
[SPEAKER_00]: like you kind of said like breaking the circle right and it's like we do have to do the hard stuff in order you know anything that's worth doing is hard or whatever the fuck that quote is that people always get tattooed on them but so you know it must have all felt super worth it for you like as scary as it must have been you know I imagine that where you always kind of like the hippie girl
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, before this rape happened, it was living on an Ashram for like three months.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what is that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a meditation center.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no way, like a defined feminine.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, hell yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was already in that and I was studying social work too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I heard that shaped a lot of my views for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very aware of like the fact that rape happens within rape culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's this human has been taught since they were born that women are objects and that this is how he asserts his power and like all these different messages.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just felt like aware of
[SPEAKER_00]: of that versus this like I was going to ask a little bit about that I had written down right now I'm finishing my book and I've been reading a lot about shame.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is actually the book I just happened to have it right here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have like a stack of can even but it talks a lot about.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, self-shameless is never useful, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the idea of where she came from came from the beginning of time, it was a survival method.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was in the tribes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We look at the guy who's doing some stupid shit is gonna get everybody killed.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we shame him to protect the tribe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, that's where she started from, even though it is not a, it's kind of like ingrained within us.
[SPEAKER_00]: For some reason, no one has to teach us shame.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just feel it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And,
[SPEAKER_00]: In this case, right, like
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it useful here because they even have an example in the book of like what we do need shame to have, you know, people like a child kind of files or or rapist like we have to have shame in order to stop that and I wondered, you know, like they always say like good people can make bad mistakes like at what point do we say like this is not a mistake we can forgive or you know, we do need to shame this behavior in a certain light because.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, is that just something that has to come on his own?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, we can't, I've asked 17 questions now at this point.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll just let you respond.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I hear you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I think that that's, those are really good questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think a lot of people, like, I have like some of the comments I've gotten on these articles are like,
[SPEAKER_01]: you're a rape apologist or like you've let this man walk free, like internet trolls, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, I'm very familiar with those.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very, very, yeah, but like this was not a light and fluffy process for my assailant.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was like fucking terrifying for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of people don't get that because
[SPEAKER_01]: it's like he actually had to fully face and feel what he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas with incarceration, he's told right away, like given his defense orders, like don't tell me what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's your story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he goes to prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: like very unlikely, but if he does go to prison, he probably never tells anyone what he did, because people who caused sexual violence experienced way more violence themselves in prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he would probably like never ever ever talk or think about what he did, or he would about it, and it would like consume him or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he'd never like
[SPEAKER_01]: to second, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the opposite.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was like, look, this is Marley, this like human that you deeply hurt and violated.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is her mom, like my mom and my sister were in the circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'd love to talk about the actual circle because
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was, you know, you're going right in the direction of my question.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like, okay, let's like, oh, let's go to the climax, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, fuck, you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a day and a circle with a flock.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you thinking, what are you wearing?
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you, oh, I'm like chills.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I, I will try to be professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell me about the day of the circle meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's one thing is like restorative justice community oriented, so it acknowledges that other people were affected by this trauma.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which I really appreciate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because yeah, my mom's life was changed by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was deeply affected by this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were both there.
[SPEAKER_01]: My lawyer, Cara, the epic crown attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: What a title.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: My assailant and a friend who he brought as a support person.
[SPEAKER_01]: And two mediators there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, every single piece of the process was like the most,
[SPEAKER_01]: real contrast from court.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, first of all, there was like so much like self care and there were like some non-corrects.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, fucking amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And our sort of justice has indigenous roots.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, right, right, I think we've got that up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sacred medicines, there was like an altar in the center of the circle to honor the roots.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now is that a Canadian thing because there is like indigenous people of Canada and is there in US, but like is that something that we would also be able to,
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, and in, in, to reduce into, sort of just as if it were to coming to the U.S. Like, I feel like people don't think about the environment that you're in, like, you want it to feel very safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It can't be like a fucking glass room with, like, you know, what you imagine to go from it building to feel like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it felt so, so, so different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: There actually is, like, there's some amazing restorative justice organizations in the states.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, they just don't deal with sexual violence as far as
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, fuck well fuck and I think it's shifting and hopefully and this is why I share this story or part of why I shared is because I'm like, hey, we need this we want this This helps so Hey guys, I don't know if you want to listen to me the survivor made me I might have some ideas for you guys Right Yeah, they really show the higher you know, it's like a catch me if you can where they hire Leonardo DiCaprio character at the end
[SPEAKER_00]: So you make the room super safe, you make it, you know, respective of where the process came from.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they also met with each of us one to one beforehand, because there's two and they met with each of us beforehand, and they talked about like,
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you want out of this, what are your fears around this and then my fear is like that he will just be a stone wall and will be like the least moved by this whole thing and that will just be like wrong about this and it was it was really like I like to say like
[SPEAKER_01]: exceeded like beyond my expectations but like in line with my dreams right yeah like he was really
[SPEAKER_01]: present, but I guess I'll kind of walk through it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So basically, one of the things they said was, you have to greet everyone, this space, and already, that's like breaking all the codes of the game.
[SPEAKER_01]: But one here and one here and never let them talk again, and that's just as, but yet, even for anyone, not just restorative justice, like advocates and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Statistically, the number one need that survivors of sexual assault have is accountability.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, they're fucking mad.
[SPEAKER_01]: Never ever ever got accountability in the way that the punitive system is set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just like, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to basically say hi to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, which was crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember like standing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so shaky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I was And they put us on a rollie chairs and like, I'm like, this is a hazard because I was like, Oh my god, that's coming.
[SPEAKER_00]: I get a moment of drama in a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sitting on the floor because I was like, like, my body is shaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we had to greet everyone in whatever way felt through and good for us and then we sat down everyone wrote down this like it was like an icebreaker activity like right down three values that you have put them in the center and then they asked us one question the mediators they said what brought you here today and that's all they asked and that's what
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I want to stuff in and ask because I read this, but we're obviously talking about it that it said you have to sign an NDA that wouldn't talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: the person or their lawyer, and some of the stuff that was said in the meeting, or afterwards, or can you explain that a little bit better for me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I can talk about anything that happened in the meeting, but I don't want to just close any information that would potentially reveal his identity.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. How does that make you feel?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, was that something that you knew from the beginning that was going to have to be?
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel, um, I feel okay with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I, to me, I'm like, it would just like destroy his life for his identity to be exposed in that way, um, but more than that, like it's not, it's just not really in need for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not really like the world needs to know who this is.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I will say, like, in my dream world, because I'd like to put stuff out there, because you never know, like, he would actually share his story.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I was gonna say.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, you two do this like traveling dual world changing fucking team thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like, like, spoiler alert.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything worked out.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like, that's where we're heading, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, that's the stuff that goes on my, like, secret vision board.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, back to the meeting, I read that their felt like in the beginning as sense of he had not wanted to take accountability and you stayed, which is pretty incredible because I feel like if I felt any resistance from this person who had just gone through six fucking months of.
[SPEAKER_00]: the whole point being to admit what the fuck you did and then to have any kind of resistance, I don't think I could have, that's, you must have had so much strength to be able to continue with that conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh my gosh, if only you heard like overcourt of my crying, that was so, but like, hello.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I guess, I guess even before I say that,
[SPEAKER_01]: that I was the second person to talk after my sister.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that spoke for like an hour at least.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, I really needed that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I really needed to say my piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Say my piece.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to be heard and like, so like, I was like, I need you to make contact with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I say this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, holy shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: And did he?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it was like very present and you would like get to your yard at certain points.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, everyone was like very casual and he wore a suit and I was so nervous and I didn't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so
[SPEAKER_01]: Then when it got to him, that piece, it wasn't that he wasn't taking accountability, but it was that he was telling his story and he apologized.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, I'm sorry for, if I caused harm in the way I've shared my story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was like so many growth signs.
[SPEAKER_01]: And keep in mind, like this is a stranger to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had met him during the assault and in court.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't remember his voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to speak up, stop him once, and saw a picture of him and his mom on Mother's Day, and he was like, love you, mom, and I just stared at it for hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: I actually saw him on Tinder once, through my phone, and I was like, how are people who are charged with sexual assault on Tinder?
[SPEAKER_00]: Holy shit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you don't think about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I did see a TikTok that my god, I can't believe we were going to have a fucking TikTok right up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to take down yesterday that was a video of a girl recording some guy's Facebook page that was saying something about his mom.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was like, when a guy, you know, is a piece of shit, is trying to say to his mom, how much he loves him, respects women, when she doesn't even know how much of a piece of shit, she was just going on and on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, and that kind of reminds me of it like, yeah, it kind of goes back to that thing of like, can good people do bad things?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or are we seeing this person as a whole as a bad, like, are we multifaceted?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I can't imagine what that must have felt like seeing him on Tinder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Holy shit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really love to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Girl, we can exchange all that mean to my sister and a couple of other friends just have a thread going where we just send our favorite cell day back and forth and laugh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, so I didn't even think about that in between time where you were kind of also discovering this person via social media and seeing the way that he must have like portrayed himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I have to imagine too that or maybe I'm wrong, was any of this assault
[SPEAKER_00]: information in the public when you were going through the pretrial stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine that the weight that he must have also been caring.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do I care?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if I'm so scared.
[SPEAKER_00]: But like the weight that he was caring must have also been like the anticipation must have been fucking
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, so I'll tell you what his narrative was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and this is why I describe it as, like, I'd turn just don't and crack and die in the circle, because it was so, it was this moment of holy shit, like, yeah, we were wrong, I was wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he was basically saying that, and we speak about this all the time
[SPEAKER_01]: but he was like, I repressed to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was saying that, right when I like, brand out, he was like, oh, how strange that she like ran.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, and it's messed up because you'll remember like he knew what he was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: saying, like, this is so fucked up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so messed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was like, I was confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something fell off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the police came and they charged me and it was very, very scary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was kind of his narrative.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, and I became suicidal because I was being charged.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: I was confused and I didn't know what was going on and he like shared about that like wanting to take his life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so this is quite like movie plot twist like how the hell is this really happening moment as well was he was like, I repressed it until someone very close to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: who is now I like hesitate because there's like fear of not being believed because it's like kind of crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but he was like, yeah, this person is now his girlfriend and she came to him at that time and was like, I was sexually assaulted and she holds him and the details were very similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
[SPEAKER_01]: like being at a club and then getting in a car and just like a similar narrative and she kept saying like um it's my fault it's my fault it's my fault and he said to her it wasn't your fault and as he said that he said it was like his memories unlocked from the night and he remembered everything
[SPEAKER_01]: And he remembered how messed up it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, picture me like, I'm just sitting here and this like friggin' roller coaster be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, what?
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he like, you know, and then he lifts me in the eyes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like, I sexually assaulted you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so free.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing I can do to take it back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I hope being here today can help.
[SPEAKER_01]: how much I needed that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I literally physically felt like a not untied in my stomach and I just burst into tears.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like honestly like this like really deep relief like this really, really deep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just like who gets that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like no one gets that.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is why part of why I'm such an advocate for this because this, that was like the most deeply healing moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't even imagine, I, what I can understand is the advocacy that you, the passion and the fire that you must have after experience like something so, oh, you're going to make me fucking cry my eyelashes, but the,
[SPEAKER_00]: The feeling of then wanting to say like, I want other people to have this and that's why I'm doing what I'm doing with your Reformation and and the project and what the message you're trying to spread and and I mean I I feel like of course I I know that the listeners are going to wonder like.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a good question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay, so when that happened, that was probably four hours into the circle, like another four hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they didn't say, like we're having an eight hour circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like, this takes as long as it takes until you feel like, like, say she did, like good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I needed it to be eight hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that was like the first four hours was like purging grease, right, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the second four hours was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: bringing in so much healing and really ended like quite joyfully and like as it was just such a deep like holy shit we did this like both of us almost took our lives probably around time and instead we're here in this circle and he even said at some points like he got clearly done like
[SPEAKER_01]: so much learning around consent and the people.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like using so much of that language and saying, oh, that's my therapist, I worked with Tommy about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, my god, like, praise my work.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like, and yeah, like, it was such a deep, like, holy shit, like, I'm like, yeah, we're just using all this, like, Sam, I have language.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: forgive him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel it's very important to share my definition of forgiveness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: So not on the same page with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: For me, forgiveness is entirely separate from justification and forgiveness can exist alongside any emotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can like really mad and
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what I actually like to say better than like, I forgive you because for me, I'm like, that doesn't answer finite.
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like, okay, we close the book and I forget that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying, no, that's not what this feels like what feels better for me is like, I have compassion for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, fuck yeah, like I think that it just feels more true for me and for me and more like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Empowering for me, so I got a question for you in a space where you're told you you shouldn't and that's probably very empowering.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure people too, like myself included, would want to know if you got the answer to why.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I feel like that's a heavy one, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like blaming on the alcohol, blaming on the patriarchy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, did you
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a little more of a complex response because he didn't have a clear, like, while I was, since I was a little bit when I was young and that is so, so, so common.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that wasn't his narrative and something just really like interesting was that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause it really did feel like unwinding the patriarchy with this part of it and like,
[SPEAKER_01]: the friend that he brought with him like broke down sobbing at one point and was like I've never cried in front of anyone like I was in the military my dad is in the military like I've just never been in a part of anything like this like this is changing my life and like so that was really fucking powerful and then and then you have them side by side and then like him explaining like saying like explaining like
[SPEAKER_01]: He was kind of like, I don't completely know why I did this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he's shared about like, it, it's like I would call it like he internalized all of the patriarchal messaging that he's been taught since he was young and he suppressed all of his emotions because he's a man since he was young and eventually he just like,
[SPEAKER_01]: during a lot and like all of that internalized unhealed crap like expressed in this horrible way and like I'm not like, oh, that's okay then, but I'm like, I see it like he'd been fed rape culture since birth and then we're confused when men like we're like, oh, cat calling's fine, but if you like non-concentrate penetries,
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, A, B leads to C, D, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm like, I actually think it's a pretty powerful example in that way, because it's like, this is a cultural thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's get like dive into that about, you know, drinking culture and consent and rape culture, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: in an instance where two people are drinking, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I feel like it's so messy and so cloudy because at what point does someone have to take responsibility for hurting another person?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel like it's so tricky when it comes to like Amy Schumer has this like horrible but like very relatable joke that that one is like everyone has been like a scotch rape right like we've all been through it everyone's have like an experience and it makes you
[SPEAKER_00]: wonder about like, and I think that's maybe why a lot of women don't report is because they're like, you know, not only self-laming and saying, I should have, I shouldn't have done this this in this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess like my question is at what point is there like something that happens where it becomes then non-concentral and someone else's fault and then making air quotes like fault?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there like a
[SPEAKER_00]: Ooh, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's good, like I, I've touched about this before, like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Now looking back with all the like education and perspective and stuff that I have, I see that like a lot of my high school early college experiences were like that kind of blurry
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm like, I think the day, like, you know, means now and yes, means yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I think what happened for me is I was complacent with so many like of those blurry experience and when this happened where I was very clearly like and we were not like friends drinking together and like whatever it was more like.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of a sudden he like pulled my pants down and I said I'm practically unconscious right now you definitely shouldn't touch me and he said but it still feels good right and I said no and then he continued and I'm just like
[SPEAKER_01]: that's not consensual.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a lot of no, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: A lot of no, and if someone's passed out and they don't, they're not able to access words like, yes, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then it's definitely not potential.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the like over all like simplifying it, like I'm making it simple stupid, it's like if it's not an absolute very clear, yes, is a fucking definite no period.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, I do have to ask the question that I'm sure everyone's wondering is, are you, do you still talk to him?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you guys friends?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there like an ending to this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Before we dive into the rehumanized.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I'd love to say like where the circle went because it was like after that that shit show moment of like, oh my god and and not like really intense like accountability moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, it did start to get like really, really, really healing and like, there was moments where you said like, you know, I do want to help stop sexual violence in the world and like, I don't drink at all anymore, um, like certain things like that and um, that we're really meaningful like for him to be like, and I actually wished there was,
[SPEAKER_01]: follow up, follow through and a lot of sort of justice programs that are more implemented, like the shoplifting ones they will have, like, hey, you said you do the career circle, like, how are you now implementing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they said to him, says another badass moment, where I was like, you're not going to prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: So make meaning of this in the same way that I have,
[SPEAKER_01]: like the people I need to hear your story, too.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he shared at one point that like, because I was like, I didn't even say, like, I'm gonna share about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, oh, you know what it was?
[SPEAKER_01]: His friend was so hyped.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like his friend, so like his friend said, in my 24 years of life, in my eight years of working, in my four years of school, I've never learned more than I have today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you all mean to share this with the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: need to be shared.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I say on after that said, like, I would be really, like, like, like, so, like happy or whatever, if you didn't share this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, yeah, it was, it was like, and the, the mediator said, like, in those one-to-one meetings, they said, you'll see by the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone who's in that room will be connected in a way that you never ever imagined.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like gross, I don't want to be in that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I get it, like after leaving that, I'm like, we just went through like the hardest fricking, like most roller coaster, most like miraculous healing moment of a thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there is this sense of like we all went through something huge and like on that,
[SPEAKER_01]: No, like one of the things my sister said was, I've never met any of the people in this room other than my other than me and my mom, she's like, I've never met any of you in my life and yet you've like changed my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Such huge ways and there is that sense of connection because of the NDA and the remnants of the punitive system because we did like kind of a 180 from punitive to restorative.
[SPEAKER_01]: like, I don't think I'm allowed to reach out to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting, but I don't know if that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it was actually fully or restorative process, that would be true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I kind of feel like, this is really like, I want to say, like, to be in to near and close.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I was going to say, I don't think I knew how fresh this was.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, this is still very much like in the thick of it and you talk about having like a follow up meeting, like, I definitely think that that should be something that's considered in, you know, the advocacy of this, because, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: He also probably still needs to process his ending, you know, ending of the beginning of the rest of how this is going to play out.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I think maybe that like there is still hope that you guys could become this like tag team duo like future world, change or people, you know, it, it's definitely not over, which maybe like beautifully transitions us into your movement of
[SPEAKER_00]: what does the future look like and tell us a little bit about that project?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always like the part where we get to the present.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, like how the fuck you can't like dig into that you can't I mean it would take eight hours.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: really dive into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I want our confidants to know about your projects so that they can like because fuck I didn't even know this existed before so I can only imagine like the whole that I could find all the internet or maybe like the relevant about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so basically after this happened we were like holy shit like that was amazing and hard and everything and also like
[SPEAKER_01]: She was so devastated by the way the system works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she got into like prosecution because she wanted to help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: off survivors, and she was like, it's the worst thing, time and time and time again.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she was really amped up as well, and we decided to launch an organization for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's really pretty much at like at our core level, we're focused on communicating to the masses that
[SPEAKER_01]: So really, that's our prime focus because what I've learned is that there are tons of organizations who are already mediate, not necessarily for sexual violence, but they already do mediation, and they would do mediation for sexual violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: But A, nobody knows about them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, because technically, I could have experienced sexual assault and then called my local restorative justice agency and said, hey, I'm.
[SPEAKER_01]: help, but how would I be that?
[SPEAKER_01]: So one of the things we want to be is a bridge between the masses and these organizations to say, hey, here's what you can do, here's how you can do it and we want to
[SPEAKER_01]: shift like minds and hearts through workshops and awareness and education because I also think storytelling is so, so, so power.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what keeps showing up and telling my story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think like bringing so many voices into this conversation of
[SPEAKER_01]: Look, these are all the survivors, different colors, different sizes, who do want this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what's most important, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like it all goes back to the revolutionary thing you said in the beginning of like it really, at the end of the day, is about y'all's voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so that's like our biggest thing and then I think as well of like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yes, it's with the victim's bill of rights thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it is in the legislation that that should be an option, but nobody's offering it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we're like, why aren't they offering it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're not offering it because they're also humans who haven't learned about restorative justice who are here to have like change in the spiritual.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like, I sometimes have just like, why am I,
[SPEAKER_01]: Walking the most controversial path ever, like, how does it look like you've seen you've seen the other side, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is like you've walked through the light and like this won't happen unless you're involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have such a, a calling in a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: in gear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it feels like that and like it feels very deep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'm clearly like very passionate about what can people what can confidants do to hear more learn more, you know, I'm sure like I'll have all the links below, but like I want people to be able to like send this to a friend like learn more ask questions like how do you get started, how does this get to the
[SPEAKER_01]: Great question.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like reach out to me as a human and tell me like why you want to, you know, what calls you towards us, what questions you have.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I think like go to our website, which is a rehumanized movement dot com people can volunteer people can get some educational resources through there.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're really, really, really new, so we're just building, and I also want to say that I do like healing and coaching work with women and a lot of us focused on healing sexuality and a lot of the people I work with are trauma and so I'm very mobile that way as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that would be my personal site, which is marleylist.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I offer like a lot of free resources like and have a free training that's coming up focused on like sexuality and healing
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, so that's really like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love love love that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, but yeah, we want, we want all the voices on board and we're slowly developing a storytelling platform.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, just just reach out.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is so cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know you probably, I don't have to tell you anything you don't already know, but your story is so
[SPEAKER_00]: But you're sorry, and in the fact that you have turned your pain into purpose, I mean.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope this sharing this on this podcast is something ignites some people to just some people the education, just the fact that you're now dedicating your life to that and helping other people, like I feel so honored to meet you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really hope you keep me updated on like what happens with all of this and how we can help.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is just such a beautiful thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel so lucky that you were able to come here and educate and allow
[SPEAKER_00]: us to be involved in your healing and your story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're just a bad bitch.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just a bad bitch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so one more time can you just let us know where people can call you where we can learn more.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, thank you so so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, hey, I'm so I'm so happy with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_01]: No year
[SPEAKER_01]: It's also such a gift like I really, really, really deeply respect you for being able to tackle such a thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you know, you are, but what am I?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like I feel so recharge and energized.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that's where I wanted this podcast, even exists is just to grow and be able to learn and make mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, thank you for saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this isn't about me, this is about you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, and we're menstruations, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, I'm like, oh, god, here we go, cramps, emotions, crying, here we go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So our organization, people can find through rehumanisemovement.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are a non-profits, so donations are all yes, we appreciate it, and that will help us make impact.
[SPEAKER_02]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my personal stuff, my healing work is Marleylist.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you'll find everything there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marley, I don't want to say goodbye, but you're so amazing and again, thank you for taking the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not going to say bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say like I'll talk you later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got everything on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: I so appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, says it so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll talk to you soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.