WEBVTT 00:01.870 --> 00:07.983 [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra. 00:08.484 --> 00:13.834 [SPEAKER_01]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business. 00:14.255 --> 00:18.985 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair. 00:26.491 --> 00:27.032 [SPEAKER_01]: Hi, everybody. 00:27.332 --> 00:29.556 [SPEAKER_01]: Last week was live from LA. 00:29.596 --> 00:31.819 [SPEAKER_01]: This week is live from Hawaii. 00:31.940 --> 00:38.570 [SPEAKER_01]: As you can see that CC is in full Hawaii mode and I am in full sweater mode because there's actually a ton of snow I would hear right now. 00:38.931 --> 00:40.754 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have lots of updates still. 00:40.974 --> 00:47.324 [SPEAKER_01]: I talked to you guys last week when I was halfway through the meeting so we still have like more LA to cover and obviously all of CC's travel. 00:47.344 --> 00:51.030 [SPEAKER_01]: So CC, you got it to the snow and you made it to Hawaii tell us how it went. 00:51.466 --> 00:52.227 [SPEAKER_02]: I did. 00:52.247 --> 00:53.509 [SPEAKER_02]: I escaped the snow. 00:53.529 --> 00:55.332 [SPEAKER_02]: It's beautiful here. 00:55.352 --> 00:57.135 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm in Kawaii. 00:57.155 --> 01:00.400 [SPEAKER_02]: It is gorgeous and I'm really happy to be chatting with you. 01:00.460 --> 01:02.243 [SPEAKER_02]: And I totally thought it was Tuesday. 01:02.283 --> 01:03.666 [SPEAKER_02]: But it's not it's Wednesday. 01:03.726 --> 01:04.767 [SPEAKER_02]: We record on Wednesday. 01:05.148 --> 01:07.071 [SPEAKER_02]: But that's how island time I am. 01:07.091 --> 01:10.857 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, it's Tuesday and Carly was texting me like, I think we have to record it. 01:10.877 --> 01:13.061 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, Carly doesn't know what day of the week it is. 01:13.541 --> 01:14.503 [SPEAKER_02]: Carly knew. 01:14.635 --> 01:15.436 [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know. 01:17.600 --> 01:22.628 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what, we got to keep a tight schedule here on the East Coast Island time, whatever. 01:23.008 --> 01:27.636 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so we have some fun things to chat about, you know, CCD, I love to recount you with our travel stories. 01:27.776 --> 01:36.550 [SPEAKER_01]: I will tell you guys about my travel story coming back from LA because I booked myself a seat where I wanted to recline. 01:36.770 --> 01:37.712 [SPEAKER_01]: I obviously wanted to sleep. 01:37.752 --> 01:39.715 [SPEAKER_01]: I was taking a red eye home on 01:39.695 --> 01:52.589 [SPEAKER_01]: Friday night I got out easily like through LAX because I know there's a bunch of government shutdowns and then all of that stuff but I got out easily and then I'm in my seat and like hitting the recline button ready to like, you know, sleep through my red eye flight. 01:53.009 --> 01:58.715 [SPEAKER_01]: Here I am trying to maximize all of my working hours and all of my bomb hours and I'm like, I'm going to take the red eye home on Friday night. 01:59.116 --> 02:01.839 [SPEAKER_01]: So I can, you know, be in work mode, sleep, and be in mom mode. 02:02.159 --> 02:03.981 [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, my seat and recline. 02:03.961 --> 02:25.429 [SPEAKER_01]: The lovely, you know, flight attendants, they were trying to help us best they could they got with the manual to try and figure out if they could like manually recline my seat and there was no way going to play So I was just sitting anyway, but I read broken country, which I hadn't read yet It was my book club's choice and I thought okay if I'm gonna be up all night and it would be up all night Whatever I'll lean into it. 02:25.449 --> 02:26.290 [SPEAKER_01]: So I read broken country. 02:26.350 --> 02:27.131 [SPEAKER_01]: So good. 02:27.352 --> 02:31.437 [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing having my eyes like crying on the plane Good thing everybody else was sleeping 02:31.703 --> 02:32.164 [SPEAKER_01]: crying. 02:32.384 --> 02:34.246 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is how I got home from LA. 02:34.266 --> 02:34.346 [SPEAKER_01]: C.C. 02:34.366 --> 02:36.428 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any travel stores for Gala's with her? 02:36.448 --> 02:37.730 [SPEAKER_01]: It was smooth for you. 02:39.011 --> 02:40.513 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, my luggage got lost. 02:40.873 --> 02:46.439 [SPEAKER_02]: Also, okay, so I brought two suitcases, plus my carry on, because I'm not a minimalist. 02:46.659 --> 02:50.504 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of my suitcases, so I got a connecting flight in Denver. 02:50.524 --> 02:52.346 [SPEAKER_02]: So then I did Denver, Kauai, right? 02:53.327 --> 02:58.032 [SPEAKER_02]: And one of my suitcases made it in the other one, one, two, a lay. 02:58.248 --> 03:04.982 [SPEAKER_02]: and I don't understand how that's possible because like both of them not making it make sense and one of them or one of them making it doesn't. 03:05.523 --> 03:06.485 [SPEAKER_02]: But I got it back. 03:06.645 --> 03:07.247 [SPEAKER_02]: It was fine. 03:07.307 --> 03:07.988 [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't a big deal. 03:08.088 --> 03:15.143 [SPEAKER_02]: It was the suitcase that had most of my shoes and my makeup removed her, but I may do because I am an adaptable person. 03:15.123 --> 03:17.026 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this is such first world problems. 03:17.387 --> 03:19.610 [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to know, were you happy, no spoilers? 03:19.750 --> 03:23.216 [SPEAKER_02]: Are were you happy with who she ended up in broken country? 03:23.757 --> 03:26.721 [SPEAKER_02]: There's a love triangle, for you guys who haven't read it. 03:26.741 --> 03:28.765 [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm not going to say who it was, because no spoilers. 03:29.305 --> 03:31.910 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but were you happy, because I loved that book. 03:32.050 --> 03:32.811 [SPEAKER_02]: It was so good. 03:33.854 --> 03:38.359 [SPEAKER_01]: It was fantastic, I mean, yeah, 10 and a 10, no, no, so that's a hard one to answer. 03:38.579 --> 03:44.906 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what it reminded me of was actually was a tone mint, like I think that's his best patrol column, a tone mint, the EQ and the level. 03:45.046 --> 03:49.672 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's just something so like longing and timeless and sweeping about it, for some good. 03:49.692 --> 03:52.214 [SPEAKER_01]: So was I happy, I don't know. 03:52.234 --> 03:54.657 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was the most realistic ending. 03:54.937 --> 03:56.359 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I was happy with the interest. 03:56.379 --> 03:58.161 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was the most realistic ending. 03:58.181 --> 03:58.742 [SPEAKER_01]: There you go. 03:59.142 --> 03:59.543 [SPEAKER_02]: That's good. 03:59.943 --> 04:00.283 [SPEAKER_02]: I was. 04:00.323 --> 04:01.785 [SPEAKER_02]: I liked him better. 04:02.862 --> 04:03.604 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, did you? 04:03.784 --> 04:04.405 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay. 04:04.987 --> 04:05.167 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. 04:05.327 --> 04:08.354 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like the excuse the other one had, you know? 04:08.414 --> 04:10.619 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't like that. 04:10.679 --> 04:11.240 [SPEAKER_02]: Communicate. 04:11.581 --> 04:12.824 [SPEAKER_02]: It's all new to communicate. 04:13.365 --> 04:13.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 04:13.986 --> 04:15.309 [SPEAKER_02]: Is that that I hated him? 04:15.449 --> 04:17.835 [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I was like, please be with this other guy. 04:18.055 --> 04:19.438 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like that man's excuse. 04:19.458 --> 04:21.242 [SPEAKER_02]: And he felt like a mom was like, I didn't like that. 04:22.066 --> 04:26.795 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you guys let us know and if you're watching on YouTube, you can obviously put it in the comments. 04:26.915 --> 04:28.799 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you agree with the ending of Broken Country? 04:28.819 --> 04:29.921 [SPEAKER_01]: We would love to hear. 04:29.981 --> 04:32.346 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple things I wanted to chat about today. 04:32.426 --> 04:33.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, main bit, one big one. 04:33.989 --> 04:35.212 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have some DMs. 04:35.352 --> 04:38.298 [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously there's so many great sub-stacks, but I was going to cover some sub-stacks. 04:38.538 --> 04:39.079 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 04:39.059 --> 04:44.835 [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I thought we could get into today, and I will obviously talk super vaguely about this, but it didn't happen over the years. 04:44.875 --> 04:49.888 [SPEAKER_01]: Today is actually my official 15-year agent-ting anniversary at PS Literary. 04:50.009 --> 04:51.473 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a milestone for me today. 04:51.493 --> 04:54.942 [SPEAKER_01]: So over 15 years, this is an interesting thing that happens when 04:55.715 --> 05:04.990 [SPEAKER_01]: A client gets an offer, but turns down the publishing offer, and I'm talking about the publishing offer at this point, because it is something that is a really hard decision for an author to make. 05:05.130 --> 05:17.250 [SPEAKER_01]: Often this is, you know, so it's an in auction where, you know, there's multiple offers, and you can take it every offer that the author is given, and so you have to make some decisions, but there's also the, you know, when you are in a kind of, 05:17.230 --> 05:26.685 [SPEAKER_01]: publishing contract, there's an option clause, and you have to show the material to the publisher, and then, you know, they get the first run of refusal, sometimes the client turns down that offer. 05:27.086 --> 05:42.951 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of factors that go into this, and, you know, there's a lot of kind of complicating things in terms of what the client wants, what their goals are, but I think it's also interesting from an agents perspective to kind of talk about how you counsel somebody through that 05:42.931 --> 05:44.493 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't have crystal balls. 05:44.573 --> 05:49.139 [SPEAKER_01]: We can't say, you know, if we turn down this offer, then we can definitely get you another one. 05:49.479 --> 05:56.088 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a lot that has to kind of go into, you know, just that relationship with your client about saying, you know, what is it that you actually want from this? 05:56.128 --> 06:07.302 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the publisher that you're with right now, kind of isn't maybe delivering on something that you're looking for or the editor relationship has changed, what also happens a lot is that we sell a book to a certain editor. 06:07.282 --> 06:20.081 [SPEAKER_01]: that editor leaves, they go on to a different job, and then you get another editor in-house and maybe that relationship with that editor isn't as strong and then by the time the book comes out and the option comes out, you know, that client is ready to move on. 06:20.221 --> 06:22.324 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it comes out to a lot of things. 06:22.424 --> 06:29.374 [SPEAKER_01]: It's that career vision book can also be doing really well with a publisher and so the publishers willing to kind of continue on with them, but 06:29.641 --> 06:33.565 [SPEAKER_01]: You also don't know the true market value for that title, right? 06:33.585 --> 06:36.407 [SPEAKER_01]: Because we go out of wine with a project. 06:37.008 --> 06:46.517 [SPEAKER_01]: You essentially get the market value meaning you might get one off or you might get more than one off or you're able to kind of leverage all of this and put this together to figure out what is the true market value of a book? 06:46.617 --> 06:57.167 [SPEAKER_01]: As you know, a manuscript on a computer when it's just being typed, the market value is zero dollars because it's not in the marketplace, but then when something becomes a product into the marketplace, it's a signed, you don't essentially, 06:57.434 --> 06:58.416 [SPEAKER_01]: a dollar value. 06:58.716 --> 07:11.960 [SPEAKER_01]: And so when we are working with options, an option for a straight refusal, it's interesting to figure out how the publisher views that as what is the fair market value for a project versus if it was on the open market. 07:12.340 --> 07:14.103 [SPEAKER_01]: And so anyway, that's one little rant about that. 07:14.124 --> 07:17.690 [SPEAKER_01]: But CC, do you have any thoughts about how you advise clients when you get to this stage? 07:18.812 --> 07:19.493 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think. 07:19.844 --> 07:40.629 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that we, like you said, there are many situations where they might happen, and it makes sense, I think, to focus on the one where there's no other offer on the table, why that that's an option situation or just regular going out with a project situation, because when there's another offer, you're just turning one down for another, then it's just a totally different psychological path to navigate. 07:42.251 --> 07:49.480 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that it's definitely tricky, but I think that if an author is even considering 07:49.831 --> 07:55.636 [SPEAKER_02]: that says so much, getting an offer and publishing is amazing. 07:55.676 --> 07:57.898 [SPEAKER_02]: It's a great feeling for every author out there. 07:58.519 --> 08:00.501 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't get old for anyone, not even agents. 08:01.441 --> 08:04.825 [SPEAKER_02]: And when an author doesn't have anything else, right? 08:04.945 --> 08:07.407 [SPEAKER_02]: And it's still thinking, huh, should I take this? 08:07.807 --> 08:09.749 [SPEAKER_02]: That question alone says so much. 08:10.049 --> 08:11.671 [SPEAKER_02]: And I think we need to listen to that question. 08:12.151 --> 08:13.172 [SPEAKER_02]: Like what are the reasons? 08:13.232 --> 08:14.994 [SPEAKER_02]: And it all comes down to what are your expectations? 08:15.034 --> 08:15.654 [SPEAKER_02]: What are your goals? 08:15.814 --> 08:19.838 [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes expectations are not realistic. 08:20.003 --> 08:23.028 [SPEAKER_02]: and they might be something that's important to the author, but they're not realistic. 08:23.348 --> 08:24.750 [SPEAKER_02]: You know, like, I don't know. 08:24.931 --> 08:28.456 [SPEAKER_02]: I want an offer that's seven figures, not six. 08:28.877 --> 08:29.798 [SPEAKER_02]: You might not be realistic. 08:29.858 --> 08:31.220 [SPEAKER_02]: Where might be depending on the project? 08:31.981 --> 08:37.229 [SPEAKER_02]: Or I want an offer that's going to come with a dollar assigned to my marketing budget. 08:37.370 --> 08:40.975 [SPEAKER_02]: That is very, very, very rare, almost unheard of. 08:41.075 --> 08:47.445 [SPEAKER_02]: And so it depends on what the person is going to say, like what the author is saying, but I think that every case is so unique. 08:47.611 --> 08:48.833 [SPEAKER_02]: I said the amount of jobs, right? 08:48.873 --> 08:50.054 [SPEAKER_02]: Like every case is so unique. 08:50.775 --> 08:59.948 [SPEAKER_02]: I had a client's one's tell me, because I was advising her, and she was like, okay, I'm oscillating between fortune favors the bold, you know? 09:00.269 --> 09:03.373 [SPEAKER_02]: Let's turn it down, let's go out with this, let's see who else is out there. 09:04.094 --> 09:07.178 [SPEAKER_02]: And between, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. 09:07.199 --> 09:12.586 [SPEAKER_02]: Now, I feel very strongly that that don't look a gift horse in the mouth is a terrible way to look at an offer. 09:12.846 --> 09:15.390 [SPEAKER_02]: An offer is not a gift, it's not charity, it's not a favor. 09:15.708 --> 09:19.595 [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, publishing is competitive, but you have to value yourself and it can't come from places here. 09:19.635 --> 09:22.139 [SPEAKER_02]: That's something I feel very, very, very strongly about. 09:22.380 --> 09:30.014 [SPEAKER_02]: That being said, I understand people who are like fearful of turning out an offer and not being able to find a better one out there. 09:30.394 --> 09:33.720 [SPEAKER_02]: And it really does come down to like what's your appetite for risk. 09:33.840 --> 09:35.303 [SPEAKER_02]: My appetite for risk is very high. 09:35.637 --> 09:42.969 [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I am never pressuring my clients or trying to nudge them into accepting something because I'm like, I will turn down and need to think as long as my client is happy with it. 09:43.170 --> 09:44.812 [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't bother me at all. 09:44.953 --> 09:47.677 [SPEAKER_02]: I have nerves of steel when it comes to this one specific thing. 09:48.459 --> 09:50.803 [SPEAKER_02]: Again, I gambled big when I became an agent. 09:50.843 --> 09:53.086 [SPEAKER_02]: I turned down a very lucrative career to do this. 09:53.327 --> 09:59.417 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just don't see why leading from a place of fear would make sense. 09:59.600 --> 10:06.670 [SPEAKER_02]: but it's important for the client to know that they're no guarantees and clients always ask so how much do you think we can get for this in the open market? 10:06.990 --> 10:11.176 [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like, honey, I will tell you that I'm confident about this. 10:11.236 --> 10:14.681 [SPEAKER_02]: Or I also wouldn't be having this conversation, but we don't know. 10:14.741 --> 10:15.342 [SPEAKER_02]: We don't know. 10:15.422 --> 10:16.123 [SPEAKER_02]: It's what you said. 10:16.163 --> 10:18.587 [SPEAKER_02]: The value gets assigned when the offers come in. 10:19.928 --> 10:26.738 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and one thing I'm thinking about a more recent example where we kind of know what we're kind of walking into in terms of expecting and 10:27.241 --> 10:39.741 [SPEAKER_01]: offer on an option and I really tried to make, you know, so many conversations really clear before we get the offer because a lot of times, kind of, oh, I'll see when I get the offer and then I'll make the decision and that's fine too. 10:39.781 --> 10:47.494 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a right or wrong way to make a decision, but oftentimes it's best to be really striving your conviction before the offer comes in. 10:47.474 --> 11:00.414 [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's like journaling or making notes, you know, just writing to yourself about why you are in that space that you are in now because it's totally different tunes sometimes when that offer comes in and then some again offers convenient to go shade and all these other things. 11:00.534 --> 11:11.271 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a reason why you were starting to ask those questions like CC said so being strong in your conviction before the offer comes in is usually the best way to kind of get yourself in the right head space for what's to come. 11:12.095 --> 11:16.122 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, again, bringing you back to the stock market when I'm buying stock. 11:16.202 --> 11:22.052 [SPEAKER_02]: I always have a little, I have a spreadsheet where I write down if the stock reaches this amount, I will sell. 11:22.093 --> 11:29.766 [SPEAKER_02]: And that way, when I'm in the heat of the moment, I don't have to make that decision, because I already made it before when my mind was clear and level headed. 11:30.117 --> 11:46.656 [SPEAKER_02]: So that helps and it's not the same thing because it's an objective number with the stock market and with offers itself and is but I think that's a really good point that you're making And I think it helps to point to that to go, hey, I know it's a heated moment now, but remember when we weren't in a heated moment, remember what you said, let's come back to that. 11:46.676 --> 11:47.698 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 11:48.238 --> 11:51.342 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, well, that's the most vague way we can possibly talk about that topic. 11:51.382 --> 11:59.972 [SPEAKER_01]: So thanks for indulging this conversation, everybody. 12:00.340 --> 12:13.378 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought this was an interesting question just because it talks a little bit kind of relationally about how things work and they said as an author is it okay to reach out to producers on your own if you have a pitch deck and a pitch or should you only allow your agent to do so. 12:13.778 --> 12:20.207 [SPEAKER_01]: What if your agent's agency doesn't have a feet TV film option department or a strong crack record of optioning books for TV film. 12:20.227 --> 12:27.377 [SPEAKER_01]: I've taken screenwriting classes written scripts and work as a PA on film sets so I have a basic understanding of what pitching for TV 12:27.644 --> 12:30.107 [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm simply not sure what the etiquette is when a book is involved. 12:30.127 --> 12:35.673 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, I prefer to have someone more experienced doing so, but I worry my agency wouldn't be a strong champion in this regard. 12:36.213 --> 12:39.297 [SPEAKER_01]: If my book now on some, yes, I'd love your insight. 12:39.317 --> 12:42.040 [SPEAKER_01]: So number one, well, that was checking out this question. 12:42.060 --> 12:48.827 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, it's hard to tell if this person has an agent and they're not sure about that agent's competency or it sounds like their book is on the internet. 12:48.887 --> 12:49.368 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I read it. 12:50.889 --> 12:53.752 [SPEAKER_02]: I read it that it's on sub, yeah, agent's sub. 12:53.772 --> 12:54.493 [SPEAKER_02]: That's how I read it. 12:54.613 --> 12:56.115 [SPEAKER_02]: But you're right, it's not like that's okay. 12:56.551 --> 12:58.193 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so let's go with that theory. 12:58.393 --> 12:58.734 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go. 12:58.754 --> 12:59.915 [SPEAKER_01]: We need to we need one or the other. 12:59.935 --> 13:04.682 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's go with their not sure about that agency's track record in that space. 13:04.742 --> 13:12.572 [SPEAKER_01]: Number one, you need to go to your representation agreement because it is very clear about some terms of what to do about sub rights. 13:12.812 --> 13:20.802 [SPEAKER_01]: So it generally, you know, every sub-right involved with that book is part of the IP of that book and therefore should flow through the agency. 13:20.862 --> 13:22.845 [SPEAKER_01]: So this requires a lot of communication 13:23.129 --> 13:28.376 [SPEAKER_01]: with your literary, your primary agent, your literary agent about who is doing what. 13:28.897 --> 13:41.433 [SPEAKER_01]: And so if there is the case where you have really strong contacts, it could be that once you have a conversation with your agent, they say, yes, it is okay to do that, but you can't do this without talking to your agent. 13:41.733 --> 13:45.038 [SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like you might just, again, not be confident that they're able to do it. 13:45.118 --> 13:47.601 [SPEAKER_01]: So there just has to be some really freight conversations about like, 13:47.581 --> 13:54.570 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what's your subless two coagents look like in just really just try to sense it out and not in a accusatory way, but in a way of like, you know, 13:55.242 --> 14:21.047 [SPEAKER_01]: Is it okay, do I have your written formal permission that I'm able to do these things no matter what the commission and the money was still have to kind of flow through your primary literary agent because that's kind of the flow of things may again all legal use aside like is this the right thing to do what are the reasons that like all of these things are in place for the way that they are is that it best serves you the author and so again once your book has been sold to a publisher. 14:21.196 --> 14:24.139 [SPEAKER_01]: And they'll be like, you know, this deal announcement and all this buzz. 14:24.199 --> 14:26.201 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that again, your agent can build on. 14:26.241 --> 14:31.627 [SPEAKER_01]: And coagents can build on to kind of sell this for other pot potential sub rights. 14:31.807 --> 14:40.036 [SPEAKER_01]: So I would just make sure you're not like circumventing them without carefully reading your contract and just speaking to them about what your goals are. 14:40.076 --> 14:46.342 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, how you can kind of assist in these goals and just making sure it's all really clear and all of the lilies part of things. 14:46.502 --> 14:48.064 [SPEAKER_01]: CC, did you have any extra thoughts there? 14:48.550 --> 15:04.602 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think you have to be careful to not shoot yourself on the foot, because so much of success with film TV adaptations is controlling the narrative and reaching out to the right people in the right moment in the right way. 15:05.037 --> 15:15.311 [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, if you have these great contacts and you know the right people, the right way, the right moment, it could work out really well, but you might have great contacts and not know that second part. 15:15.852 --> 15:26.627 [SPEAKER_02]: And so you might end up mentioning information that is two premature or in a way that's not framed intelligently, there's just so many factors to consider. 15:26.727 --> 15:27.248 [SPEAKER_02]: I think, 15:28.291 --> 15:31.915 [SPEAKER_02]: that having that really frank conversation and I wouldn't be worried about offending your agent. 15:31.935 --> 15:44.048 [SPEAKER_02]: I just would, like obviously I'll be polite about it, but it's fair for you to say, hey, I'm worried because I have these goals, XYZ and I have these contacts and I'd like to be really smart about this and honor our partnership. 15:44.568 --> 15:53.438 [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, like I get that, some people would be uncomfortable to have that talk, but that's to have it and not feel frustrated later, I think. 15:54.245 --> 15:54.726 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. 15:54.746 --> 15:58.592 [SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing is, and again, not to downplay any of your contacts, because you can have incredible contact. 15:58.632 --> 16:05.022 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a lot of like independent producers out there who are looking for shopping agreements at a zero fee rate. 16:05.283 --> 16:13.676 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you don't just want to like get yourself into a shopping agreement or a low fee option, just for the sake of saying my books been option, right? 16:13.696 --> 16:15.920 [SPEAKER_01]: Because then it takes it on the table for years to come. 16:15.960 --> 16:21.889 [SPEAKER_01]: So like she said, controlling that narrative, doing it in partnership with people who, you know, have your 16:22.240 --> 16:25.616 [SPEAKER_01]: and really want to do right by your book is super important. 16:25.636 --> 16:27.605 [SPEAKER_01]: So good luck to your book on sub. 16:27.625 --> 16:28.770 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll thank you all the best for you. 16:28.790 --> 16:30.679 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. 16:30.699 --> 16:31.744 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we had another. 16:32.264 --> 16:34.366 [SPEAKER_01]: question come in that I thought was kind of interesting. 16:34.426 --> 16:38.690 [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much that we could get into on various different conversations with AI. 16:38.791 --> 16:42.875 [SPEAKER_01]: But this person had said, you clearly have opinions on the current AI mess. 16:42.935 --> 16:49.982 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm wondering, have agents noticed an influx of queries clearly or maybe not so clearly written by chat, GPT or other AI chat bots? 16:50.002 --> 16:51.984 [SPEAKER_01]: And as a core of the label, it's not too bold. 16:52.204 --> 17:01.393 [SPEAKER_01]: If AI gets better, quote unquote better, over the next years, would you and CC ever consider feeding a client's novel into an AI program with a prompt 17:01.373 --> 17:04.239 [SPEAKER_01]: Write an effective pitch letter aimed at XYZ editor. 17:04.279 --> 17:06.463 [SPEAKER_01]: So curious and event many other listeners would be too. 17:06.704 --> 17:13.657 [SPEAKER_01]: I love this because I think you're asking the question that tons of people want to ask and yeah, I mean it's it's so complicated, but right now. 17:13.737 --> 17:14.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's garbage. 17:14.759 --> 17:17.385 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, this is a hypothetical, but CC one. 17:17.725 --> 17:19.669 [SPEAKER_01]: What is your hypothetical answer to this question? 17:19.649 --> 17:30.253 [SPEAKER_02]: No, my hypothetical answer is no, I would not consider and it's obviously possible because it's possible for every single answer I will ever give that I'll change my mind down the road because I'll have new information and new perspective. 17:31.035 --> 17:35.746 [SPEAKER_02]: But I also, someone who knows myself fairly well, I just can't imagine doing that. 17:35.766 --> 17:37.911 [SPEAKER_02]: I don't like outsourcing my brain. 17:37.891 --> 17:40.896 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel very strongly that I don't want a machine sinking for me. 17:41.076 --> 17:45.684 [SPEAKER_02]: I want machines to do you grunt work for me, like I love technology. 17:45.704 --> 17:46.665 [SPEAKER_02]: I use technology every day. 17:46.745 --> 17:48.548 [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to technology, we have this podcast. 17:48.689 --> 17:52.916 [SPEAKER_02]: I'm currently in Hawaii, you know, doing this podcast. 17:52.976 --> 17:55.039 [SPEAKER_02]: But I do not... 17:55.019 --> 17:59.747 [SPEAKER_02]: Like that I don't want a machine writing a pitch for me. 17:59.767 --> 18:07.140 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't want that It won't do a good job like I will it won't feel the book like I will feel I just don't believe it Maybe I'm being naive maybe I'm being dumb. 18:07.261 --> 18:11.348 [SPEAKER_02]: It's possible, but I don't think I am I do not like outsourcing my brain. 18:11.468 --> 18:19.963 [SPEAKER_02]: I feel very strongly that my critical thinking is one of my greatest assets And my way of looking at things with my unique perspective and sets me apart as an agent and I 18:20.332 --> 18:22.114 [SPEAKER_02]: don't trust machines to do that for me. 18:22.134 --> 18:23.155 [SPEAKER_02]: I just don't. 18:23.175 --> 18:29.002 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'm in a frame this in a slightly different way, which is like we're essentially saying could this say I'd program be in a system. 18:29.342 --> 18:30.343 [SPEAKER_01]: And I have an assistant. 18:30.583 --> 18:33.487 [SPEAKER_01]: And there are tons of things that I don't outsource to my assistant. 18:33.507 --> 18:35.829 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have my assistant right my pitch letters. 18:36.250 --> 18:43.538 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't have them, you know, put all this together, right pitch is for me, because I am the one that knows how to pitch something, how to frame something. 18:43.518 --> 18:46.481 [SPEAKER_01]: what is it that attracted me to this project in the first place? 18:46.541 --> 18:49.765 [SPEAKER_01]: And what are those pieces that I can hear so little and culturally relevant? 18:50.145 --> 18:56.372 [SPEAKER_01]: You also, like, what's to get removed culturally and connectively to the connective tissue of what you're working on? 18:56.472 --> 18:58.094 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what is the fucking point? 18:58.434 --> 19:06.823 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, point of us doing these jobs is that we care so deeply about these materials, we want to see them make their way into the world. 19:07.023 --> 19:13.170 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I was to not have that connective 19:13.606 --> 19:19.217 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the point where like I have to retire because that is just not the way that agents should be doing their jobs. 19:19.237 --> 19:30.940 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not why we got to this job in the first place like what is this going to solve me this is going to make it so I can pitch more books in a year like goal is to pitch more books in a year my goal is to put properly and accurately. 19:30.920 --> 19:32.923 [SPEAKER_01]: the best book on now. 19:32.983 --> 19:33.363 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 19:33.463 --> 19:35.245 [SPEAKER_01]: The best books to the best ability. 19:35.306 --> 19:40.372 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think if you think about like yeah, is this how do we frame this usage? 19:40.792 --> 19:43.916 [SPEAKER_01]: What does better mean and what is the desired outcome? 19:43.997 --> 19:49.624 [SPEAKER_01]: Because to me, the desired outcome isn't to become more removed from the work that is my joy. 19:49.664 --> 19:51.166 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just not what the point is. 19:51.186 --> 19:52.567 [SPEAKER_02]: I agree. 19:52.788 --> 19:53.509 [SPEAKER_02]: I fully agree. 19:54.450 --> 19:56.252 [SPEAKER_02]: That's that's a really good point 19:56.553 --> 19:58.556 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is why we do this job. 19:58.656 --> 20:00.558 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so we have time for one sub stack. 20:00.578 --> 20:02.400 [SPEAKER_01]: We have another one too, but we'll save that for next week. 20:02.701 --> 20:05.224 [SPEAKER_01]: We have one sub stack that we want to chat about with you guys. 20:05.304 --> 20:16.418 [SPEAKER_01]: So it comes from maybe I overshared.substack.com. 20:16.398 --> 20:34.575 [SPEAKER_01]: quote, bad border unwoked written by Alex subhead what Harper Collins's rough quarter reveals about the fragile ecosystem every author depends on and so you know the header explains you know who's core had had some recordings that weren't overly ideal as you see what did you make of this one. 20:35.281 --> 20:37.924 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I want to say like I know Alex really well. 20:38.104 --> 20:39.606 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to disclose that. 20:39.826 --> 20:42.209 [SPEAKER_02]: Alex is a publisher at Rising Action. 20:42.269 --> 20:43.310 [SPEAKER_02]: She's great. 20:43.751 --> 20:45.393 [SPEAKER_02]: I've been to conferences with Alex. 20:46.334 --> 20:56.226 [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's important context because she's talking about a really big publisher and she runs a small publishing house and so that perspective is informing her thoughts. 20:56.646 --> 20:58.348 [SPEAKER_02]: Not a bad way, just the opposite. 20:58.368 --> 21:00.010 [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's important context. 21:00.511 --> 21:01.592 [SPEAKER_02]: I want to add that. 21:01.724 --> 21:06.751 [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I really enjoyed the way she wrote she writes really well. 21:06.771 --> 21:14.041 [SPEAKER_02]: And I just really enjoyed the way she framed how this giant machine that is a big five publisher. 21:14.121 --> 21:17.485 [SPEAKER_02]: This is specific to Harper Collins, but honestly, it applies to so many publishers. 21:18.126 --> 21:22.973 [SPEAKER_02]: Decisions and factors that are going in there could affect the little guy, meaning the author. 21:23.233 --> 21:25.736 [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't surprised by anything. 21:25.937 --> 21:31.444 [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that so much of publishing 21:32.082 --> 21:41.282 [SPEAKER_02]: and the things that we can't control a little bit that list becomes larger and larger and just longer and longer and it's a challenge, it's for sure a challenge. 21:41.718 --> 22:02.494 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, one of the things that stood out to me was the audio books sales fell off 11% and ebooks 9% and generally overall the assumption is people are just reading less coming out of the kind of co-vidiers people are just writing other things to do which is you know which you know it's our job to be published in books that can stay up against. 22:02.474 --> 22:11.977 [SPEAKER_01]: All of the other forms of entertainment, you guys have heard me rant so many times about how our biggest competitor is Netflix and our phones and all of these other things the attention economy that are trying to take our time in attention. 22:12.779 --> 22:20.398 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I have heard two kind of marketing experts recently talk about how they think 2026 is going to be the year we go analog. 22:20.378 --> 22:49.542 [SPEAKER_01]: Which is great for the book business because we want everybody to go in a log There's so many young people that are just like hating being attached to their phones They're growing up with parents who have phone addictions and so yeah, so social currency I forget the name of the creator, but her account is social currency and she has oh Sammy Cohen as her name Social currency she has great social media a great news letter and Gary Vee who's a marketing expert that most of you probably know both of them have sighted and a log is the main trend for 2026 and they have nothing to do with book publishing 22:49.522 --> 22:52.270 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, they're very much in the kind of the digital world. 22:52.691 --> 22:54.456 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think this is all very good. 22:54.496 --> 22:55.318 [SPEAKER_01]: All very good news. 22:55.338 --> 23:00.493 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really hoping that, you know, again, with so many people deciding that they want to be able to kind of 23:00.811 --> 23:09.986 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, be in their hobbies, you know, work on things that they can touch and feel that are tangible, that they can own on like our digital content, that we're going to see a huge improvement in these numbers. 23:10.026 --> 23:13.692 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm actually really hopeful that this, you know, that we're going to see an uptick in this. 23:13.712 --> 23:19.462 [SPEAKER_01]: So, well, obviously, a quarter publishers, quarter being so down is obviously a negative thing. 23:19.482 --> 23:21.886 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really hoping that this moved to analog. 23:22.387 --> 23:25.452 [SPEAKER_01]: As a trend, at least we'll see, I've at last, you know, whoa. 23:25.735 --> 23:27.619 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll prove to be fruitful next year. 23:27.719 --> 23:29.042 [SPEAKER_02]: I love your optimism. 23:29.162 --> 23:32.048 [SPEAKER_02]: I always would be without Carly's optimism. 23:32.089 --> 23:33.031 [SPEAKER_02]: We need this in the world. 23:33.051 --> 23:33.552 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. 23:33.612 --> 23:34.915 [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for the optimism. 23:35.035 --> 23:35.456 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it. 23:35.776 --> 23:36.638 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it. 23:36.658 --> 23:37.500 [SPEAKER_02]: I love it. 23:38.425 --> 23:46.253 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I usually do a year, I do a trend analysis where I talk about what I think are going to be the hottest predictions for the following year. 23:46.293 --> 23:48.094 [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't written my predictions yet. 23:48.655 --> 23:51.838 [SPEAKER_01]: Previous years have done Instagram lives, I've done carousels, I've done Zoom. 23:51.858 --> 23:57.263 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm figuring out what format I want to do this year, but I will be working on my 2026 publishing predictions. 23:57.464 --> 24:00.547 [SPEAKER_01]: So keep an eye out on my socials for how I'm going to launch that. 24:00.687 --> 24:05.091 [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, always full of optimism, realism, and optimism, definitely important to me. 24:06.758 --> 24:09.263 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, we'll see if you have a great rest of your time in Hawaii. 24:09.423 --> 24:10.485 [SPEAKER_01]: We will catch you next week. 24:10.505 --> 24:12.529 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you'll still be in Hawaii when we're recording next week. 24:12.870 --> 24:16.176 [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yes, and I will not get the day wrong this time. 24:17.138 --> 24:20.264 [SPEAKER_02]: I think. 24:20.284 --> 24:20.925 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, everybody. 24:20.965 --> 24:23.350 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for tuning in and we will see you next week. 24:23.937 --> 24:28.265 [SPEAKER_00]: CCLera is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates. 24:28.725 --> 24:36.459 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshuman.com. 24:37.120 --> 24:48.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency, but a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Carly on this podcast. 24:48.119 --> 24:59.412 [SPEAKER_00]: are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.