WEBVTT 00:05.887 --> 00:08.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:09.218 --> 00:15.036 [SPEAKER_00]: The show that explores the background of Tolkien's amazing world, from the very beginning. 00:25.850 --> 00:46.103 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're starting chapter 17 and here I am looking at a whole new section of the Hobbit, a whole new chapter and thinking about how I'm going to start this episode and the very first thing that comes to mind is simply, Tolkien is so good at this thing and I feel like I'm a broken record at this point. 00:46.163 --> 00:52.633 [SPEAKER_00]: How many times have I started an episode and talked about the things that Tolkien is amazing at? 00:52.613 --> 00:54.376 [SPEAKER_00]: But I don't think that's my fault. 00:55.077 --> 00:57.020 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to take responsibility for this. 00:57.621 --> 00:59.965 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he's just that good. 01:00.005 --> 01:01.708 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that why we're all here? 01:01.909 --> 01:08.199 [SPEAKER_00]: Isn't that why we are still enjoying his work this many years later and keep coming back to it? 01:08.480 --> 01:15.972 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, maybe there's some personal obsession and yes, everybody enjoys their comfort food and putting this in quotes. 01:15.952 --> 01:19.176 [SPEAKER_00]: of, you know, the kinds of entertainment they like to consume. 01:19.296 --> 01:22.260 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's often nice to go back and do something again. 01:22.781 --> 01:26.065 [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't mean this to be a segue to promote my new show. 01:26.125 --> 01:27.908 [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean, it totally makes sense. 01:28.308 --> 01:42.386 [SPEAKER_00]: One of the things that I'm doing as comfort food is releasing a new show called Retro Recall, where me and my friend John from the Forty K. Lorcast, get together and talk about and play games we haven't played in like 30 years. 01:42.627 --> 01:42.887 [SPEAKER_00]: So, 01:42.867 --> 01:45.430 [SPEAKER_00]: That's actually launching on the 19th. 01:45.590 --> 01:52.257 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a YouTube channel that will be up and you can right now go to it Just search Retro Recall on YouTube and there will also be a podcast feed. 01:52.277 --> 02:07.052 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're looking forward to Stalja and Checking out old games to see if they hold up after 30 years then go check out Retro Recall and I didn't mean to You know promote this at the beginning of the episode, but it just makes sense talking about something that we keep going back to 02:07.032 --> 02:10.901 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you need a link, there's a link in the show description and in the episode description. 02:10.921 --> 02:17.075 [SPEAKER_00]: So just go there, click on the link, and then you can subscribe and even hit the little note to find me for when the first video goes up. 02:17.095 --> 02:19.942 [SPEAKER_00]: It's video first, but there will be audio episodes as well. 02:20.002 --> 02:21.205 [SPEAKER_00]: So I hope you guys enjoy that. 02:21.526 --> 02:24.653 [SPEAKER_00]: We've had a blast making and we've actually put a lot of work into this. 02:24.633 --> 02:26.416 [SPEAKER_00]: But I didn't mean to focus on that. 02:26.656 --> 02:35.350 [SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk about the Hobbit here, chapter 17, and the beginning of this has a few pages of dialogue, and that's what I'm getting to here. 02:35.390 --> 02:37.954 [SPEAKER_00]: The dialogue is so well done. 02:37.974 --> 02:48.210 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not necessarily exactly, I don't know, the way that people speak in the real world so much as it is, 02:48.190 --> 03:06.250 [SPEAKER_00]: extremely effective at conveying exactly who these characters are and also revealing things about them that they either state themselves or can be heavily implied by what's happening in the situation and the words that they choose to use and the things they choose to reveal. 03:06.230 --> 03:10.035 [SPEAKER_00]: And when they choose to reveal them, there's so much going on here. 03:10.396 --> 03:14.341 [SPEAKER_00]: And I've genuinely enjoyed going through this section. 03:14.561 --> 03:20.028 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you could see my show notes, you'll see all sorts of different colors as I've color-coded, different parts of the text. 03:20.309 --> 03:23.633 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, some episodes are more heavily quoted than others. 03:23.833 --> 03:27.538 [SPEAKER_00]: Others I kind of skip over a little bit here and they're just summarized what is happening. 03:27.879 --> 03:34.768 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an episode where I could pretty much quote every single sentence in these threeish pages that I'm covering. 03:34.748 --> 03:43.644 [SPEAKER_00]: And yes, that's how dense this episode will be because it's three pages long and we're doing an entire podcast episode about three pages, but here. 03:43.844 --> 03:44.445 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get into it. 03:44.606 --> 03:53.301 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's find out what happens when Bilbo gets back from giving, well, art and the Elven King, the Arkansas and see how Thor and response. 03:53.782 --> 03:55.525 [SPEAKER_00]: There's some interesting stuff going on here. 04:13.342 --> 04:24.757 [SPEAKER_00]: So the very next day begins, and the very first line talks about trumpets ringing early in the camp, and a runner heading up the path to convey a message to the dwarves. 04:25.318 --> 04:42.420 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, the question is, hey, we got to talk some new information as kind of a risen, the specific phrasing here is new tidings had come to hand, and Thorin has a, well, at this point, 04:42.400 --> 04:49.870 [SPEAKER_00]: personal corruption, his motivation, where he sits, the things he cares about, and everything else that he doesn't. 04:50.490 --> 05:01.204 [SPEAKER_00]: And we also, as we have discussed in previous episodes, understand how that kind of mindset can make it very hard for somebody to see things other than what they want to see. 05:01.725 --> 05:05.910 [SPEAKER_00]: In his very first response to this, is that will be dying. 05:05.890 --> 05:21.739 [SPEAKER_00]: meaning they found out that more dwarves are on their way and they are deciding to parlay with us because they don't want to have to go to war with 500 battle hardened dwarves on their flank. 05:21.719 --> 05:23.041 [SPEAKER_00]: But we know that's not the case. 05:23.181 --> 05:26.926 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we know they're coming, but we know that this isn't the information that they just received. 05:27.306 --> 05:31.011 [SPEAKER_00]: That causes them to want to parlay with the dwarves. 05:31.472 --> 05:35.477 [SPEAKER_00]: This is simply Thorin's perspective and Tolkien nails this. 05:35.978 --> 05:37.840 [SPEAKER_00]: And Thorin is so confident about this. 05:37.880 --> 05:41.685 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, bid them come few in number and weaponless, and I will hear. 05:42.020 --> 05:48.486 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's not the thing they wanted to come talk about as we know, and we get the very next line. 05:48.526 --> 05:50.948 [SPEAKER_00]: I could quote every single line of this section. 05:51.589 --> 05:55.253 [SPEAKER_00]: The banners of the forest and lake were seen to be born forth again. 05:55.313 --> 06:01.118 [SPEAKER_00]: And I love that we now have two overarching names for these groups. 06:01.238 --> 06:06.043 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just the people of Lake Town and the elves of the forest. 06:06.203 --> 06:10.407 [SPEAKER_00]: It is the banners of the forest and the lake. 06:10.572 --> 06:16.838 [SPEAKER_00]: as if the forced and the lake were forces unto themselves, not just the people from those locations. 06:17.398 --> 06:40.579 [SPEAKER_00]: And in the situation, you would expect that you would have messengers, you would have a small group coming to Parlay, and maybe a leader or two, but you end up with both Bard and the Elven King and, mysteriously, as we know who this is, an old man wrapped in cloak and hood, who happens to be carrying a strong casket of iron-bound wood. 06:40.559 --> 06:48.792 [SPEAKER_00]: This is basically the description of a wooden reinforced chest, something that you would put something very valuable in. 06:49.333 --> 06:50.175 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know what this is. 06:50.235 --> 06:53.119 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Gandalf with the Arkonstone. 06:53.760 --> 06:54.642 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's interesting here. 06:55.083 --> 07:00.652 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice that both Bard and the Elven King have trusted Gandalf to carry this. 07:01.273 --> 07:02.475 [SPEAKER_00]: It is not in the hands of Bard. 07:02.735 --> 07:04.738 [SPEAKER_00]: It is not in the hands of Thrandewill. 07:05.099 --> 07:07.663 [SPEAKER_00]: It is in the hands of Gandalf. 07:07.643 --> 07:13.796 [SPEAKER_00]: That's how much both of these very important individuals trust and no Gandalf. 07:13.816 --> 07:19.708 [SPEAKER_00]: And you have to imagine what some of the conversation was that night after Bilbo left. 07:20.209 --> 07:26.682 [SPEAKER_00]: Because he runs into Gandalf on the way out, Gandalf would have gone to both of them and discussed what to do in the morning. 07:26.662 --> 07:32.448 [SPEAKER_00]: And we get a lot more of these kinds of behind-the-scenes conversations between important people in the Lord of the Rings than we do in the Hobbit. 07:32.648 --> 07:42.778 [SPEAKER_00]: These moments of deliberations between very important people who have a lot of wisdom and knowledge, but also their own intentions and their own drives, the things that they want. 07:43.238 --> 07:48.103 [SPEAKER_00]: And we see many times in the Lord of the Rings how Gandalf is able to maneuver through that. 07:48.203 --> 07:53.648 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not a surprise here that Gandalf would have done so with Bard and the Elven King. 07:53.628 --> 07:55.590 [SPEAKER_00]: And we know that this is Gandalf. 07:55.630 --> 08:00.916 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, the reader is supposed to know who this is, and yet it is not specifically stated in the text. 08:00.937 --> 08:02.659 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's a reason for that. 08:03.099 --> 08:09.226 [SPEAKER_00]: If Tolkien had simply put before whom a Gandalf, not an old man, a, I said, a Gandalf. 08:09.246 --> 08:09.607 [SPEAKER_00]: That's funny. 08:10.167 --> 08:13.751 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf is standing there with the Arkansas in a box. 08:14.392 --> 08:16.435 [SPEAKER_00]: It wouldn't be as impactful. 08:16.995 --> 08:21.981 [SPEAKER_00]: We know that he's being hidden because the dwarves don't know who he is yet. 08:21.961 --> 08:32.572 [SPEAKER_00]: And that creates a certain level of tension and hopefulness, expectation about what's going to happen in us, the reader, because we know something they don't. 08:32.972 --> 08:34.413 [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, we know many things they don't. 08:34.894 --> 08:37.336 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they have the Arkansas, and that's why they're there. 08:37.917 --> 08:41.020 [SPEAKER_00]: Hail Thorin said, Bard, are you still of the same mind? 08:41.400 --> 08:47.226 [SPEAKER_00]: The very first thing he says is basically, hello, are you still a grumpy jerk? 08:47.206 --> 08:52.256 [SPEAKER_00]: You've read it to talk or no, and Thor's response here is interesting. 08:52.597 --> 08:55.843 [SPEAKER_00]: My mind does not change with the rising and setting of a few sons. 08:56.404 --> 09:08.708 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the very first thing he says, which I find highly ironic because the change from him from a caring, empathetic, good leader of this group. 09:08.688 --> 09:16.905 [SPEAKER_00]: to somebody who was so absorbed with wealth and power in his own status and all of that was very quick. 09:17.386 --> 09:25.103 [SPEAKER_00]: You could probably make the argument that that change occurred over the setting of a few sons, the rising and setting. 09:25.564 --> 09:27.969 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's not right here. 09:28.029 --> 09:29.532 [SPEAKER_00]: He's incorrect. 09:29.512 --> 09:32.497 [SPEAKER_00]: He then says, did you come to ask me idle questions? 09:32.857 --> 09:34.920 [SPEAKER_00]: Still the Elfost has not departed as a bait. 09:35.241 --> 09:37.324 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell them, you come in vain to bargain with me. 09:37.544 --> 09:39.227 [SPEAKER_00]: His response is condescending. 09:39.267 --> 09:41.150 [SPEAKER_00]: You're asking idle questions. 09:41.270 --> 09:41.971 [SPEAKER_00]: Why are you here? 09:42.011 --> 09:43.854 [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't done what I told you to do. 09:44.375 --> 09:45.597 [SPEAKER_00]: Go do it. 09:45.577 --> 09:54.269 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very domineering kind of thing, and a lot of times people will mistake this kind of language for confidence, but really it's arrogance. 09:54.770 --> 10:00.999 [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, they are not required in any way to do exactly what Thorn wants them to do. 10:01.039 --> 10:02.501 [SPEAKER_00]: This is a negotiation. 10:02.521 --> 10:08.029 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not just a one sided, you know, one person putting makes demands and another person has to respond. 10:08.370 --> 10:10.372 [SPEAKER_00]: They both wield some level of power here. 10:10.413 --> 10:12.175 [SPEAKER_00]: That's what a siege is. 10:12.155 --> 10:17.661 [SPEAKER_00]: The dwarves are locked in and could very well starve according to their perspective. 10:18.402 --> 10:19.023 [SPEAKER_00]: But then we get this. 10:19.844 --> 10:22.707 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there then nothing of which you would yield any of your gold? 10:22.767 --> 10:27.853 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice that this is telling, this is moving the conversation forward. 10:28.433 --> 10:30.356 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, he doesn't even respond. 10:30.796 --> 10:34.260 [SPEAKER_00]: Our doesn't say, well, no, we haven't done what you asked, and this is why. 10:34.280 --> 10:39.546 [SPEAKER_00]: He simply moves the conversation forward because Thorin is not doing so. 10:39.745 --> 10:44.564 [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing that you or your friends have to offer, and again, Thorin is wrong. 10:44.584 --> 10:47.275 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't know what they have to offer. 10:47.812 --> 10:48.794 [SPEAKER_00]: And then we get this. 10:49.715 --> 10:51.678 [SPEAKER_00]: What of the arc and stone of Thrain? 10:51.738 --> 10:57.868 [SPEAKER_00]: He said, at the same moment, the old man opened the cask and held aloft, the jewel. 10:58.229 --> 11:05.360 [SPEAKER_00]: And this moment is so cool because it defines for us that there is no mistake about what this jewel is. 11:05.921 --> 11:10.208 [SPEAKER_00]: The light left from his hand bright and white in the morning. 11:10.188 --> 11:15.339 [SPEAKER_00]: In the bright morning sun, this gem shined even brighter. 11:15.379 --> 11:18.846 [SPEAKER_00]: And I totally get why people would say, well, is it a silmaril? 11:18.906 --> 11:20.249 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what the heck is going on here? 11:20.289 --> 11:21.773 [SPEAKER_00]: It's shining bright light out of it. 11:22.254 --> 11:22.975 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a silmaril. 11:23.115 --> 11:25.881 [SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about this, but it is very silmaril-like. 11:25.981 --> 11:28.146 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the themes here are obvious. 11:28.126 --> 11:34.775 [SPEAKER_00]: This is Thorns, he believes it's his, he wants to get it back, he will do anything in order to have it, that sounds like the Null Door to me. 11:35.375 --> 11:38.199 [SPEAKER_00]: And Thorns' response here is priceless. 11:39.261 --> 11:43.566 [SPEAKER_00]: I guess that's a funny way to say this because the Arkansas is very valuable, but it's priceless. 11:44.047 --> 11:49.594 [SPEAKER_00]: He is stricken dumb with amazement and confusion, and nobody would talk for a while. 11:49.574 --> 12:01.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you imagine being somebody like Thorin, who, whose mind is co-opted with these thoughts of domineering the world in order to get the thing that he would want, because that's the only thing he cares about. 12:02.032 --> 12:05.798 [SPEAKER_00]: And for him, that has defined his reality. 12:06.239 --> 12:15.873 [SPEAKER_00]: And I bring up narcissism pretty regularly on the show, having been somebody who's had to deal with people in my life who have suffered that, and caused the people around them to suffer it with them. 12:16.474 --> 12:19.378 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is another 12:19.358 --> 12:35.477 [SPEAKER_00]: proves to me that Tolkien understood what narcissists were and probably had to deal with them in his life as well, because the thing that narcissists do that I think a lot of people find very surprising is that they are constantly reinventing the world around them. 12:35.457 --> 12:44.950 [SPEAKER_00]: What I mean by that is most of us agree to the basic details of the environments that we're in, the conversations that we have, the way the world is around us. 12:44.991 --> 12:45.792 [SPEAKER_00]: That's sort of thing. 12:45.952 --> 12:47.033 [SPEAKER_00]: So here's an example. 12:47.053 --> 12:51.640 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say you're in a business meeting and have been in these before and your boss is an artist. 12:51.660 --> 12:53.803 [SPEAKER_00]: But everyone else in the room isn't. 12:53.783 --> 12:58.288 [SPEAKER_00]: And at the end of the meeting, everyone is in general agreement about what was discussed. 12:58.548 --> 13:11.662 [SPEAKER_00]: And a week later, everyone that you work with, all of your co-workers are all working towards the same goal and you're all in agreement about what the meeting was about, what was discussed, what the priorities are, and the majority of people in the office are all on the same page. 13:12.142 --> 13:20.331 [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden, your boss comes to everyone and says, I don't know what you've all been doing this last week, but it's not what we discussed in the meeting. 13:20.547 --> 13:21.209 [SPEAKER_00]: You see what I'm saying? 13:21.830 --> 13:24.798 [SPEAKER_00]: Something changed, and it wasn't the majority of people in the office. 13:25.079 --> 13:33.360 [SPEAKER_00]: It was that one individual's perspective, because they're constantly reinventing reality around them to match their wants or their fears. 13:33.921 --> 13:36.548 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what's happening to Thorin here. 13:36.528 --> 13:44.316 [SPEAKER_00]: He, at this point, has defined in himself what the world is around him, how this is going to play out. 13:44.596 --> 13:46.158 [SPEAKER_00]: He's going to get the Arkonstone. 13:46.538 --> 13:50.883 [SPEAKER_00]: There's no chance that Bard and the Elven King are going to get any of their gold. 13:51.484 --> 13:57.210 [SPEAKER_00]: Dine is going to show up and back them up and they're going to defeat them in battle if they need to. 13:57.690 --> 14:00.753 [SPEAKER_00]: And there's no doubt in his mind that that's exactly how this is going to play out. 14:01.154 --> 14:05.218 [SPEAKER_00]: But then all of a sudden, reality punches him in the face. 14:05.198 --> 14:09.443 [SPEAKER_00]: because the very thing that he thought could never happen happens. 14:10.064 --> 14:13.227 [SPEAKER_00]: They present to him the Arkansas in front of him. 14:13.307 --> 14:16.751 [SPEAKER_00]: It is not in the mountain, it is not anywhere else, it is right there. 14:16.791 --> 14:24.640 [SPEAKER_00]: And he has to do some, I don't really like the phrase mental gymnastics, but kind of, this is what's going on here. 14:24.961 --> 14:31.408 [SPEAKER_00]: He has to figure out how to adjust his perspective to the reality presented in front of him. 14:31.388 --> 14:34.652 [SPEAKER_00]: And usually the response to that is anger. 14:34.672 --> 14:36.595 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice how Tolkien presents this. 14:37.256 --> 14:41.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Thorin at length broke the silence, and his voice was thick with wrath. 14:42.763 --> 14:46.207 [SPEAKER_00]: Rath, not anger, no frustration, wrath. 14:46.948 --> 14:52.676 [SPEAKER_00]: Rath is a word that encapsulates anger but in a violent sort of way. 14:52.716 --> 15:00.366 [SPEAKER_00]: That stone was my father's and his mind, he said, 15:00.565 --> 15:02.388 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice that he's still confused here. 15:02.448 --> 15:05.153 [SPEAKER_00]: How, why, how would you have something that is mine? 15:05.473 --> 15:05.954 [SPEAKER_00]: It is mine. 15:06.194 --> 15:06.875 [SPEAKER_00]: It is not yours. 15:07.136 --> 15:09.600 [SPEAKER_00]: That is the only thing I care about, and now I'm very angry. 15:10.201 --> 15:19.717 [SPEAKER_00]: But wonder overcame him and he added, and so finally, it takes him to this point where he starts to go, wait, reality doesn't match the way I perceive reality. 15:20.137 --> 15:22.962 [SPEAKER_00]: But how came you by the heirloom of my house? 15:22.942 --> 15:33.975 [SPEAKER_00]: If there is need to ask such a question of thieves, and then he answers it for himself, you must be thieves somehow you stole this from me, and then Bard responds, we are not thieves. 15:34.476 --> 15:37.279 [SPEAKER_00]: Your own, we will give back, in return, for our own. 15:37.760 --> 15:40.483 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice the measured and steady response. 15:40.944 --> 15:49.354 [SPEAKER_00]: We have something of yours, you have something of ours, you owe us a debt for the deeds that we did for having to deal with the dragon. 15:49.334 --> 15:50.199 [SPEAKER_00]: That's ours. 15:50.641 --> 15:51.305 [SPEAKER_00]: This is yours. 15:51.828 --> 15:56.897 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's simply trade and thorn even more enraged how came you buy it. 15:57.434 --> 16:02.119 [SPEAKER_00]: and then the most impressive thing in this entire section of the book. 16:02.339 --> 16:04.281 [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe in the entire book altogether. 16:04.341 --> 16:14.010 [SPEAKER_00]: I talked about how it was so impressive that Bilbo took it upon himself to risk leaving and delivering the Arkansas into him, but Bilbo was kind of in the clear here. 16:14.050 --> 16:17.714 [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody could have said, well, Bilbo gave it to us, and he could have denied it. 16:17.734 --> 16:18.414 [SPEAKER_00]: He could have been like, what? 16:18.475 --> 16:19.395 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been here the whole time. 16:19.455 --> 16:20.276 [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody knew I was here. 16:20.617 --> 16:24.100 [SPEAKER_00]: He could have played that game in order to cover his butt. 16:24.434 --> 16:24.995 [SPEAKER_00]: but he doesn't. 16:25.757 --> 16:39.005 [SPEAKER_00]: Notice he goes all the way back to the dwarves that night, and then the very next morning the thing happens that is the likely thing to happen, they show up with the Arkansas demanding their share, and Bilbo doesn't lie. 16:39.045 --> 16:40.749 [SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't make up a story. 16:41.450 --> 16:42.392 [SPEAKER_00]: He tells the truth. 16:43.520 --> 16:47.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And he's very, very concerned for his well-being. 16:47.607 --> 16:53.938 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, I gave it to them squeak to Bilbo who was peering over the wall by now in a dreadful fright. 16:54.359 --> 16:57.845 [SPEAKER_00]: He is scared out of his mind and yet he is courageous. 16:57.945 --> 17:07.401 [SPEAKER_00]: Because Thorn, by all rights and how he understands Thorn to be right now in a very terrible mindset, could have simply killed him. 17:07.820 --> 17:08.461 [SPEAKER_00]: And he tries. 17:09.463 --> 17:11.247 [SPEAKER_00]: You, you cried Thorin. 17:11.648 --> 17:12.510 [SPEAKER_00]: And he turns on him. 17:12.550 --> 17:13.352 [SPEAKER_00]: He grabs him. 17:13.372 --> 17:19.124 [SPEAKER_00]: He calls him a miserable Hobbit, an undersized burglar, and he picks him up. 17:19.745 --> 17:24.695 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is one of the things that I think really helps us understand the difference between dwarves and Hobbits. 17:24.976 --> 17:26.298 [SPEAKER_00]: Hobbits, of course, are very small. 17:26.318 --> 17:28.984 [SPEAKER_00]: And dwarves are a little bit taller than them. 17:28.964 --> 17:30.046 [SPEAKER_00]: But they're much stronger. 17:30.506 --> 17:32.770 [SPEAKER_00]: Imagine a really short bodybuilder. 17:32.870 --> 17:34.673 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what a lot of these dwarves are like. 17:34.733 --> 17:39.961 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, they may not look bulky like a bodybuilder, but their muscles are very strong. 17:40.522 --> 17:50.938 [SPEAKER_00]: And many of them spend much of their lives crafting, in stone, in jewels, and physical ways that continue to maintain and grow their strength. 17:50.918 --> 17:56.286 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a distinct difference between the size of a hobbit and his strength and the strength of its warf. 17:56.947 --> 18:02.776 [SPEAKER_00]: And Thorin's next statement reinforces again how off he is, how wrong he is. 18:03.217 --> 18:06.421 [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, he says by the beard of Duran, this is a curse. 18:06.782 --> 18:08.685 [SPEAKER_00]: Duran is the father of the Dwarves. 18:08.845 --> 18:17.398 [SPEAKER_00]: This is almost as bad as saying by the beard of L.A. which be rising it to the gods, but your descendants are kind of the one here below that. 18:17.378 --> 18:21.567 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, of course, Tolkien just kind of lubs this one up. 18:21.627 --> 18:26.598 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, I wish I had Gandalf here, cursed him for his choice of you, made his beard wither. 18:27.540 --> 18:29.264 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we know Gandalf is there. 18:29.324 --> 18:33.974 [SPEAKER_00]: There's another moment completely confirming that Thorne is wrong. 18:34.014 --> 18:37.902 [SPEAKER_00]: As for you, I will throw you to the rocks. 18:38.152 --> 18:39.694 [SPEAKER_00]: and he lifts Bilbo up. 18:40.575 --> 18:44.340 [SPEAKER_00]: This confirms that this is not just anger, this is wrath. 18:45.101 --> 18:58.459 [SPEAKER_00]: Thorne is ready to murder him over a stone, a very valuable stone, but a stone nonetheless, and he cannot see Bilbo's perspective on this at all. 18:59.561 --> 19:02.244 [SPEAKER_00]: And it's at this very moment that Gandalf reveals himself. 19:02.845 --> 19:05.188 [SPEAKER_00]: Stay, your wish is granted. 19:05.168 --> 19:15.104 [SPEAKER_00]: He throws aside the hood and the cloak, and this moment reminds me of the moment where he reveals himself in the Lord of the Rings to Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli when they think he's dead. 19:15.604 --> 19:19.350 [SPEAKER_00]: The actual quote from that is, the old man was too quick for him. 19:19.691 --> 19:23.076 [SPEAKER_00]: He sprang to his feet and leapt to the top of the large rock. 19:23.056 --> 19:26.623 [SPEAKER_00]: There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering over them. 19:26.863 --> 19:29.809 [SPEAKER_00]: His hood and his gray rags were flung away. 19:29.869 --> 19:45.418 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the same kind of reveal, but in going back and looking at the language used in and around this section of the Lord of the Rings and the language used in the Hobbit, it really does show a certain level of growth in Tolkien's prose, 19:45.398 --> 19:55.792 [SPEAKER_00]: And we'll have to cover that when we get to the Lord of the Rings, but it's something that stood out to me that there's a distinct difference in the feel and it's almost like, this is weird, this is weird to say, right? 19:56.172 --> 20:01.319 [SPEAKER_00]: You remember the move from standard definition to HD and then the move from HD to 4K? 20:02.000 --> 20:04.183 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like that, but for pros. 20:04.163 --> 20:24.747 [SPEAKER_00]: And remember when we only had, I mean, some of us aren't old enough to know, remember this, but remember when we only had like standard definition and certain types of shows or certain like when you finally got a DVD of something or like, wow, the clarity on this looks really good on my old CRT TV and for that time it did look really good and then you got improvements in technology. 20:24.827 --> 20:26.769 [SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of like that looking back at the Hobbit. 20:26.789 --> 20:29.192 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, wow, this is a really good DVD. 20:29.172 --> 20:31.876 [SPEAKER_00]: But we haven't seen the 4k blue ray yet, right? 20:32.357 --> 20:33.238 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the Lord of the Rings. 20:33.298 --> 20:34.420 [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, let's keep going. 20:34.841 --> 20:36.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Gandalf's language here is very intentional. 20:37.465 --> 20:38.907 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, here is Gandalf. 20:38.927 --> 20:39.828 [SPEAKER_00]: He announces himself. 20:40.249 --> 20:41.651 [SPEAKER_00]: But he doesn't say, here I am. 20:41.751 --> 20:43.494 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, here is Gandalf. 20:43.514 --> 20:50.604 [SPEAKER_00]: Almost as if it's a title being announced to himself in front of everyone, or the fact that his name carries weight. 20:50.965 --> 20:55.011 [SPEAKER_00]: And so using the name again in kind of a third person way, 20:54.991 --> 20:55.832 [SPEAKER_00]: provides that. 20:56.272 --> 21:02.718 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, and none too soon, if it seems, if you don't like my burglar, please don't damage him. 21:02.818 --> 21:09.925 [SPEAKER_00]: So none too soon, it seems, you know, a wizard is never either late or earlier late, always arrives on time, that whole quote. 21:10.366 --> 21:14.990 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he says, put him down and listen first to what he has to say. 21:15.050 --> 21:23.378 [SPEAKER_00]: There are many times where Gandalf will tell somebody exactly what to do and most of the time they do it. 21:23.358 --> 21:44.539 [SPEAKER_00]: It's as if he almost has the same kind of quality that Saruman had in his ability to change people's response to things through the use of his words and we know that he does that and that's part of kind of who he is, but there's also this level of respect, I think I don't think it's as manipulative as Saruman was in his use of this. 21:44.519 --> 22:04.205 [SPEAKER_00]: But it's still very much commanding, and I think that's more likely due to the level of respect that others have for him, although I'm not going to say that he doesn't use some level of his power in order to push an agenda when it is very important, like rallying the troops and raising their morale or that sort of thing. 22:04.666 --> 22:06.128 [SPEAKER_00]: Now notice Thorin's response here. 22:06.168 --> 22:08.451 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, you all seem in league. 22:08.802 --> 22:10.164 [SPEAKER_00]: He's the victim, right? 22:10.404 --> 22:12.226 [SPEAKER_00]: This is the narcissist playbook. 22:12.246 --> 22:13.267 [SPEAKER_00]: Things don't go how they want. 22:13.507 --> 22:17.091 [SPEAKER_00]: And they are no longer in charge and command in control of the situation. 22:17.131 --> 22:19.694 [SPEAKER_00]: They are the victim because everyone's teaming up on them. 22:19.734 --> 22:24.780 [SPEAKER_00]: But really, it's their response to realizing that the world isn't what they thought it was. 22:25.060 --> 22:28.264 [SPEAKER_00]: And the only reason for that isn't because they were wrong. 22:28.684 --> 22:32.228 [SPEAKER_00]: It's because everybody else is working against them. 22:32.208 --> 22:34.633 [SPEAKER_00]: But notice here that he does what Gandalf told him to do. 22:34.714 --> 22:35.595 [SPEAKER_00]: He puts Bilbo down. 22:35.656 --> 22:36.738 [SPEAKER_00]: He puts him on top of the wall. 22:36.878 --> 22:42.591 [SPEAKER_00]: And then, like a kid who doesn't get picked for the kickball team, he's like, I'm not going to deal with wizards or any of their friends ever again. 22:42.731 --> 22:43.252 [SPEAKER_00]: Leave me alone. 22:43.673 --> 22:47.983 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he gives Bilbo one more insult and says, basically, what do you have to say? 22:48.003 --> 22:50.368 [SPEAKER_00]: And it calls him a descendant of a rat. 22:50.787 --> 22:53.391 [SPEAKER_00]: And Bilbo has a good response here. 22:53.431 --> 22:58.278 [SPEAKER_00]: He says, in typical Bilbo fashion, dear me, dear me, I am sure this is all very uncomfortable. 22:58.759 --> 23:00.522 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, clearly we get it. 23:01.263 --> 23:04.047 [SPEAKER_00]: You may remember saying that I might choose my own 14th share. 23:04.448 --> 23:07.052 [SPEAKER_00]: Perhaps I took it too literally, like, oops. 23:07.913 --> 23:13.622 [SPEAKER_00]: I have been told that dwarves are sometimes polite or inward than indeed, kind of a little backhanded compliment. 23:13.602 --> 23:19.654 [SPEAKER_00]: The time was all the same when you seem to think that I had been of some service. 23:19.995 --> 23:26.328 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, hey, remember when we were friends and you trusted me because I saved your life multiple times? 23:26.889 --> 23:28.954 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I remember that too. 23:29.755 --> 23:34.986 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, descendant of rats indeed, now he's like insulted. 23:34.966 --> 23:39.050 [SPEAKER_00]: Is this all the service of you and your family that I was promised, Thorin? 23:39.591 --> 23:48.460 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, he's saying, remember when you promised me your service multiple times, when you said you were at my service, when you were at my debt for saving you. 23:48.961 --> 23:50.523 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is your response. 23:51.023 --> 23:59.472 [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to try to throw me off a wall and not even deal with the situation and see the other perspective here. 23:59.452 --> 24:00.194 [SPEAKER_00]: Take it at that. 24:00.354 --> 24:03.801 [SPEAKER_00]: I have disposed of my share as I wished and let it go at that. 24:04.042 --> 24:05.525 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, it's done. 24:05.565 --> 24:06.708 [SPEAKER_00]: What's done is done. 24:06.748 --> 24:08.191 [SPEAKER_00]: Deal with it, buddy. 24:09.133 --> 24:15.126 [SPEAKER_00]: Foreign grimly says, I will and I will let you go at that and maybe never meet again. 24:15.266 --> 24:19.215 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically, he's like, okay, I'm not going to kill you, but get out of here. 24:19.195 --> 24:20.958 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he claims that he's betrayed. 24:21.118 --> 24:22.942 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, basically, he's playing the victim again. 24:23.162 --> 24:27.349 [SPEAKER_00]: And he realizes that he really doesn't have any leverage in this situation. 24:27.750 --> 24:36.165 [SPEAKER_00]: So he says, OK, fine, they will, they will get a 14th of the share for the Arkansas in back because in his mind, the Arkansas is more valuable than a 14th of the share. 24:36.646 --> 24:39.571 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's going to be a billbos cut billbos gets nothing. 24:39.951 --> 24:43.718 [SPEAKER_00]: He means nothing to me anymore, and he has to leave and. 24:43.698 --> 24:45.042 [SPEAKER_00]: go on, get out of here. 24:45.403 --> 24:48.011 [SPEAKER_00]: He finishes by saying, take him if you wish him to live. 24:48.573 --> 24:54.450 [SPEAKER_00]: Basically saying, if he stays, I will murder him and no friendship of mine goes with him. 24:54.633 --> 25:17.788 [SPEAKER_00]: No level of humility, no perspective of, hey, you've trusted this person to save you and your friends and your family, multiple times on this journey, no willingness to sit down and really try to understand what's happening, only an emotional response, and then being forced to just kind of cow-tow to their demands. 25:18.376 --> 25:26.432 [SPEAKER_00]: Get down now to your friends, basically saying, like, we are not friends, or I will throw you down again, another threat to his life. 25:26.933 --> 25:31.922 [SPEAKER_00]: Now it needs to be understood here that Thorn isn't a evil person, he has been corrupted. 25:31.942 --> 25:39.557 [SPEAKER_00]: The dragon sickness is playing on his own natural inclinations as a dwarf to value wealth and those kinds of things, and 25:39.537 --> 25:50.708 [SPEAKER_00]: his ancestry, the importance of his kingdom, all of the things that are very natural to him are being twisted and turned into something that is destructive and terrible. 25:51.289 --> 25:59.317 [SPEAKER_00]: So they discuss the how they're going to deal with the gold and the silver, they're going to pack it up, we'll be back tomorrow to pick it up, all of that stuff and until then they're going to keep the stone. 25:59.638 --> 26:04.903 [SPEAKER_00]: And then Gandalf says, you are not making a very splendid figure as King under the mountain. 26:04.883 --> 26:05.905 [SPEAKER_00]: things may change yet. 26:06.246 --> 26:17.587 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, Gandalf just kind of stating like, hey man, you're being a jerk, but maybe things will get better, which is very Gandalfian, that's so fun word, uh, way to say things, right? 26:17.627 --> 26:21.154 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, hey, I've got some foresight, maybe things will change. 26:21.134 --> 26:26.504 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's mostly for the reader to give them a little bit of like, okay, maybe there's something else going on here. 26:26.544 --> 26:29.008 [SPEAKER_00]: Then we're told that he's still plotting things. 26:29.149 --> 26:37.624 [SPEAKER_00]: He's still backing into his own perspective that maybe Dine will show up and they'll be able to retake the Arkansas and they won't have to follow three with the deal. 26:37.604 --> 26:43.636 [SPEAKER_00]: you know manipulative aggressive things because that's where he is. 26:44.177 --> 26:45.900 [SPEAKER_00]: And Bill Bob climbs down. 26:45.940 --> 26:51.891 [SPEAKER_00]: He basically takes nothing with him except for the armor and then we get another little jab from Thorin. 26:52.152 --> 26:59.646 [SPEAKER_00]: He basically says like yeah you can keep the armor and it cannot be pierced by arrows but if you do not move quickly, I will basically shoot your feet. 26:59.626 --> 27:03.150 [SPEAKER_00]: But then we get a little bit of a glimpse of what else is going on with the rest of the dwarfs. 27:03.470 --> 27:09.636 [SPEAKER_00]: Not all of them have been corrupted the way Thorin has, and some of them feel shame and pity in their hearts. 27:09.676 --> 27:15.723 [SPEAKER_00]: They're starting to wake up to what's really going on here, because they can see the selflessness in Bilbo. 27:15.743 --> 27:16.944 [SPEAKER_00]: They can see the sacrifice. 27:16.964 --> 27:24.672 [SPEAKER_00]: They can see the willingness to put himself courageously in danger in order to do what he believes is the right thing. 27:24.652 --> 27:29.921 [SPEAKER_00]: And then the scene kind of ends, barred's like, okay, we'll be back tomorrow, they head back to their camp. 27:30.562 --> 27:47.470 [SPEAKER_00]: And the final line of this section is, with that, they went back to the camp, but Thorin sent messengers by Rhoak, telling Dian of what had passed, and bidding him come with Wary Speed. 28:00.106 --> 28:03.956 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks again for tuning in, and just a reminder, check out Retro Recall. 28:04.056 --> 28:15.465 [SPEAKER_00]: It comes out on the 19th, so very, very soon, and we will have episodes up every other week we're covering Double Dragon 2 first, and then Mega Man 2, and then we've already recorded a good set of the episodes that are all going to roll out. 28:15.445 --> 28:16.386 [SPEAKER_00]: uh, by weekly. 28:16.446 --> 28:18.428 [SPEAKER_00]: So check that out, Retro Recall. 28:18.508 --> 28:20.590 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, thank you to everyone who supports the show. 28:20.670 --> 28:22.352 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to our newest patrons. 28:22.372 --> 28:26.677 [SPEAKER_00]: We've got two new patrons, uh, Brent P and Russell M. Thank you so much for signing up. 28:26.717 --> 28:33.804 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you're enjoying the ad free episodes and the other stuff that you get, including bonus episodes, all sorts of fun things, tons of bonus episodes. 28:34.405 --> 28:44.575 [SPEAKER_00]: And I have to shout out all of our VIP patrons, Fulcrum David S. Daniel Knightweaver, Capena, Richard J. T. J. T. A. 28:44.555 --> 28:57.093 [SPEAKER_00]: Mason Weathertop, Jezor, Gimli, a break, divine madman, Rosie Rosé, Ginger Fury, who on is my hero Eldarian was right, Avariel, Matt, Party Snacks, single-ent looking friend wives, Maltau, I've totally butchering that every time. 28:57.493 --> 29:07.608 [SPEAKER_00]: Our new Norvie Genius, Balrogius, Hunterus, Chris K, Briss, Brust, I messed that one up too, Brust W and Brent Pete, I'm so sorry, Brust. 29:07.628 --> 29:10.512 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, everybody, for being here and for your continued support. 29:10.492 --> 29:16.802 [SPEAKER_00]: Also, if you'd like to help out another way it's leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts, I'll read it out if I can see it on a future episode. 29:17.023 --> 29:18.345 [SPEAKER_00]: And I will see you next week. 29:18.845 --> 29:20.047 [SPEAKER_00]: Until then, stay safe out there. 29:20.388 --> 29:24.454 [SPEAKER_00]: And if you have to deal with a narcissist to remember, there's no change in their mind. 29:24.795 --> 29:28.621 [SPEAKER_00]: They're just going to dig their heels in and then try to throw you off a wall. 29:29.543 --> 29:32.407 [SPEAKER_00]: And then hopefully there's a Gandalf there to help stop that from happening. 29:32.608 --> 29:34.110 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, have a wonderful week. 29:34.411 --> 29:35.352 [SPEAKER_00]: I will see you next time. 29:39.145 --> 29:41.308 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 29:41.949 --> 29:45.513 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 29:45.954 --> 29:50.299 [SPEAKER_00]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more, at robotsradio.net. 29:50.780 --> 29:52.622 [SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 29:53.123 --> 29:59.772 [SPEAKER_00]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots underscore radio, or join our amazing community on the robots radio discord. 30:00.192 --> 30:05.939 [SPEAKER_00]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robots radio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 30:06.200 --> 30:07.161 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you next time.