[SPEAKER_02]: there and welcome to our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: The shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Callie Waters of PS Literary.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hello everyone, if you're watching us from YouTube, hi, I'm waving hi.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you're listening to us, hello, welcome to welcome, welcome to the I have a very special guest.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now she's not just an amazing author, although of course she's that too.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's also my client.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dr. Tracy Dalglich is here with us.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna read you her bio.
[SPEAKER_04]: Straight up from her latest book, Dr. Tracy Douglas is a clinical psychologist, couples therapist, and sought after relationship expert.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is the creator of Be Connected Digital, where she teaches people all over the world how to have healthier relationships.
[SPEAKER_04]: Her work has been featured in outlets like The New York Times, Forbes, and Time, and her research has appeared in peer-reviewed academic journals.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is the author of the book I didn't sign up for this, and the host of the Top 100 Parenting Podcast Dear Dr. Tracy.
[SPEAKER_04]: The owner of the mental health clinic integrated wellness, she lives in Ottawa with her husband and two children.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, welcome, welcome, Dr. Tracy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hi, Tracy, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's always an interesting experience to have your bio-read in front of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right, how did that feel?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's incredible.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I remind people nothing happens overnight.
[SPEAKER_03]: What I've done did not just happen in the last two years.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think a lot of people see me publishing, see my online space and think, how many months have you been doing this?
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not months, it's years.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're looking at decades at this point.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also a lot of invisible work.
[SPEAKER_04]: I might imagine, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Before the visible work happens,
[SPEAKER_03]: always and we're having this conversation so for listeners my husband and I are actually in business together so in 2021 he joined behind the scenes and he's been supporting my online work and all of the publishing behind the scenes pieces like pre-order bonuses and things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: In 2019, he's actually the one who initiated us opening our own mental health clinic here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So a lot of people see what I've created and what I'm doing and they think, oh, you're doing, there's two thoughts.
[SPEAKER_03]: One, you're doing this on your own or two, you have this massive team behind you.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's in between.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's me and my husband.
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's so much invisible work that happens behind the scenes that a lot of people don't
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, this is a really nice segue because you just said me and my husband, and of course your new book.
[SPEAKER_04]: The title is you, your husband, and his mother again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our YouTube fans, I'm holding up the cover.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is a beautiful cover in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know how you feel about the cover.
[SPEAKER_04]: So please do comment on this if you are watching.
[SPEAKER_04]: You, your husband and his mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the title says it all.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's about this triangle, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like this triangle in relationships and whether you're a nonfiction author or fiction author.
[SPEAKER_04]: Relationships are at the heart of who we are as humans of the human condition and therefore of writing about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: My question to you, my first question to you, officially is, we've been here before.
[SPEAKER_04]: I read your bio, you have a first book out, we worked on that book.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was the first time we ever worked together and your first book came out a few years ago.
[SPEAKER_04]: How does it feel to be back with your sophomore title?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, not just here on the podcast, but you have now written two books, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, how do the experiences compare?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really interesting because I don't feel like the new kid on the block anymore.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've been here before, things are familiar, and also this really thinking into what it means to do something that you love.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love sharing stories.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love peeling back the curtain and showing people what everyday lives look like and the real struggles and Particularly in this book and how different this one is from the first one because the first one read more like fiction and With more of a memoir feel to it, this one is very self-help and there's stories in it which I know people are just going to love to read the stories and see the very real struggles that people have in this dynamic
[SPEAKER_03]: But to kind of sit in the seat and to say, oh, I'm doing this and it's thrilling and it's hard and then at the same time my brain is already on book three you know that my brain is already going and I think that's the thing about publishing right like what people see.
[SPEAKER_04]: never matches what's actually happening behind this, like what's happening behind this means matches what's happening now but in with the time you know like I will be talking about book three when I don't even know not now but then you're thinking about book three now
[SPEAKER_03]: I saw this thread that said that it was giving the Easter eggs from Taylor Swift's anti-hero video to then her life of a showgirl out of them out now and someone saying, wow, how far an advance has this person?
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, how does this create or this woman done?
[SPEAKER_03]: And I thought about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought some of that's some of our early conversations.
[SPEAKER_03]: You knew this was going to be my second book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, a long time ago I knew this was going to be one of my books back in 2011 in one of the first experiences I write about in the beginning of the book and so it's interesting being this creator and then author because so there's two thoughts I want to I want to share here one is it's like the creative part that Liz Gilbert talks about big magic how it's like the universe is waiting for us to just grab it and pull it down.
[SPEAKER_03]: and both of these books very much felt like that, but this book came faster.
[SPEAKER_03]: I wrote it really fast.
[SPEAKER_03]: It was almost like the words were just hanging over me and I just had to pull it down.
[SPEAKER_03]: That was the last piece that I love that piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when we sit in,
[SPEAKER_03]: are creative space and we don't let the front of the brain take over and the front of the brain does all of the, is this good enough?
[SPEAKER_03]: What are you doing?
[SPEAKER_03]: You're a fraud?
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, that's not perfect.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's not enough.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the front of my brain was so busy writing my first book.
[SPEAKER_03]: that was that was one I had to really work through.
[SPEAKER_03]: This one, it just felt like I was being and the universe was providing me this book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew where it was coming from and also to, for listeners, this also comes from my almost 20 years of working with people, the clinical work that I've seen, the everyday stories and then how I integrate that together.
[SPEAKER_03]: So there's that element there.
[SPEAKER_03]: But, see, see, I think there's this other element here with this book where this time more so than the first time.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like I am ready to release this to the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, going back to what Taylor Swift had said about her album and about creating art and artists.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's that I don't get to control what other people do with this now.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going to put it out there and it's now yours.
[SPEAKER_03]: You get to decide what you do with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've given you this, this art, this piece.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you get to decide what to do with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you and I have talked a lot about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: How other people's opinions of your work is none of your business.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is something that I've really sunk into.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now as a second author versus the first author.
[SPEAKER_03]: First time author who was very caught up in, and my good enough is this enough.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a perfect What are people going to think?
[SPEAKER_04]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a really important message, and I feel like not only is it better for your mental health.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's also better for your creativity.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our brains waste energy when, I mean, I shouldn't say, well, it's better brains spend energy when we are thinking about, am I good enough?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, is this good enough?
[SPEAKER_04]: Are people going to like it?
[SPEAKER_04]: That is energy that we are spending on things.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so if we cannot not spend energy on those things, then guess what?
[SPEAKER_04]: There's more space
[SPEAKER_04]: For someone who is not familiar with your second book, give them the elevator pitch, like, you know, someone asks you, imagine you're going through border control and you know, an agent's like, oh, you're an author, like, what's your book about?
[SPEAKER_04]: What would you respond?
[SPEAKER_03]: with nearly 20 years of experience.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every single couple comes to my office wanting to get on the same page and one of those biggest desires is about having healthy family relationships and yet when you bring two different family systems together sometimes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oftentimes, this is a struggle, and the common theme I kept seeing for people is that women get stuck in this binary role.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're either the victim in the story, meaning that everything is happening to them, or they're the villain, and they're skidgoded, and they're called the bad guy, and all the problems are on them, and women today, especially women, no different, and they want
[SPEAKER_03]: We are parenting differently than previous generations.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're dividing mental load and visible labor differently.
[SPEAKER_03]: And we also expect more.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so because of this difference, there is this tension that's showing up between families not being able to communicate.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my goal with this book is so that you can pull your seat up at the table.
[SPEAKER_03]: You bring in your main character energy, and you align yourself with your partner.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that you can keep having those family events that are going to feel more aligned with you and have a strong marriage at the same time.
[SPEAKER_04]: love that main character energy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love that?
[SPEAKER_04]: On the publishing side, you switched publishers for this book, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: So your first book, I didn't sign up for this, was it the different publisher?
[SPEAKER_04]: And you made the choice, and it was entirely your choice of going with a different publisher this time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Could you share a little bit about that experience?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I know that something our listeners are going to notice, and they're going to go like, huh, what's the story there?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a really interesting experience to take something that's familiar and then go to an unfamiliar space.
[SPEAKER_03]: And CC, you know, and you've commented on this before of how therapists like of me that I described experience is as interesting and.
[SPEAKER_03]: It is this curiosity on a lot of different things, first on procedures, procedures are different, processes are different, on opportunities.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, there's this sense of opportunity to try something.
[SPEAKER_03]: different.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's a risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's a risk.
[SPEAKER_03]: Like when we think about what our brains like, our brains like familiarity.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I knew what to expect with the other publisher.
[SPEAKER_03]: I knew what the process was going to look like.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was familiar.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then to go to somewhere else, it brings that skyded feeling scared.
[SPEAKER_03]: and excited how is this going to work, what will it look like, what's the editing process like, and I have nothing but positive things to say about making that change and having just this amazing team and full support behind that and I think that as an author.
[SPEAKER_03]: is exactly what we wish for.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to be able to say I've gotten that, it has just been amazing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, and you've seen the behind the scenes, emails, and all the workshops gone into bringing this book.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had a really supportive editor who, you know, I think we communicated really well together.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: shout out to Lauren, Lauren O'Neill from torture.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, big shout out.
[SPEAKER_04]: Lauren is Lauren is one of the good ones.
[SPEAKER_03]: And she's been this right from the beginning when we first pitched the book.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was so excited.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember you saying like you could just see how excited she was.
[SPEAKER_03]: For this book and for the concept and for the the stories within it and how much we're going to how far we could potentially bring this dog and it really has been that just all throughout and If anyone's ever kind of wondering I think
[SPEAKER_03]: I think of something that my dad had said to me, when we were deciding whether to open our mental health clinic because it was a financial risk at the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: My family has this long history of entrepreneurial ship and business.
[SPEAKER_03]: And he said, without risk, there's little reward.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's something I really hold on to in publishing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah and you know it's I feel like when you are taking risks it helps to have someone in your corner and you have that with with your husband who is someone who can help and obviously your family and I mean I guess it just makes a difference to remember you're not alone you know and it it's an amazing piece to have that kind of support it's something you've developed and built over time
[SPEAKER_04]: Your answer makes me think that we need to tell listeners about the behind the scenes of pitching this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, as Tracy's agent, I'll set the stage.
[SPEAKER_04]: She knew what her second book was gonna be.
[SPEAKER_04]: She came to me and said the number one reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: Couples are not on the same page.
[SPEAKER_04]: has to do with in-law behavior.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I was like, are you sure it's not money?
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, are you sure it's not in fidelity?
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, no, those are things too.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the number one reason, they're not on the same page and they're struggling, has to do with in-laws.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like, okay, I don't know why I was so surprised because I grew up in a house where my mom struggled so much with her in-laws.
[SPEAKER_04]: not at all her fault, by the way, I should say, like, and this is not my mom brainwashing me guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's just not who I am as a human.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a very critical person.
[SPEAKER_04]: That family was hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: My father's family was hard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: point is as we know that many families are hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but like, just say, there's a lot.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, see, was also on my pre-order bonus coaching call that I gave the other day.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, just as a fun person listening in, I had nothing official to do with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was just like,
[SPEAKER_03]: You, you heard the stories and Greg has also, I mean, Greg knows some of the stories that come in and he's, you know, just that like, yeah, whoa.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't want to interpret the story.
[SPEAKER_03]: I keep keep going.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have something in there.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, come on, let me tell me, okay, there's one piece I want to add because I remember you saying this and you had said, I kept asking.
[SPEAKER_03]: other agents or editors if they had a good relationship with their mother-in-law or know how is your relationship with your mother-in-law and you came to me saying everyone keeps saying they have a good relationship with their mother-in-law so I don't know about this book and then when I ask my community the different question and this is the key piece this is the difference to have you and your partner ever gotten into conflict because of his mother 86% of people
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's the difference there because a lot of women, here's the power dynamic as a daughter and love we want to be liked and accepted into their family and so we are going to say yeah it's a good relationship we're probably not going to tell you all of those little paper cuts that have been happening over the years.
[SPEAKER_04]: I also feel like the bar is so low for what society considers to be a good relationship with in laws.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That people often say, oh, it's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be worse.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then they think of like some other scenario where it's really really really bad.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like three realies versus two realies are one really.
[SPEAKER_04]: and then they say, it's good, you know, because we have that tendency to like diminish.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, point is, I was like surprised, it was a number one source of conflict, but I'm like, that sounds so great.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I started asking around to see which editors to submit this to.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a very fluid process, because
[SPEAKER_04]: You really want to target the people who have the vision for the book and who understand it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yes, to a degree, that's a personal thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Meaning, I remember one editor said, I get along with my mother and law really well, but my mom didn't, you know, like her mom had it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so she understood the conflict because she had seen it between her mom and her paternal grandmother.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know another editor who said, this is someone who offered on your book, but or who was about to offer, we'll get to that story soon.
[SPEAKER_04]: Another editor said,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have a mother-in-law because her husband's mom had passed away, but her brother she saw how her mom treated his wife, meaning her kind of sister-in-law, you know, like, and she was like, my mom is a terrible mother-in-law, and she's a wonderful mom.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, how could she be a great mom and a terrible mother-in-law?
[SPEAKER_04]: And she often sides with her brother's wife and go stop, like, stop.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're not being reasonable, Mom.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, point is, it doesn't have to be your relationship with your mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_04]: it just does not have to be for you to understand the appeal of this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I was trying to find editors and so we did and we went on on submission.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, I did have a moment where I was like, is this book going to be too niche?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because people keep telling me, I love my mother and love.
[SPEAKER_04]: Holy guacamole, everyone wanted this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone and their mother and their mother-in-law wanted this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everyone wanted this book and we were all set to go to a major auction because everyone was telling me, like, I'm going to go to war for this book, et cetera, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_04]: We had lots of calls with editors, lots of calls with editors, and there was one editor, of course, who won all the calls really stood out.
[SPEAKER_04]: to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this editor decided to pre-empt and so a pre-empt for listeners if you're not familiar is when an editor makes an offer and it is understood that this offer is higher than they might normally go with the intention of conveying the message, hey take the book off the table, don't go to
[SPEAKER_04]: except this pream to versus whatever could happen in auction.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when if an author says no, the editor might still go to auction they usually do, but they usually make a lower offer at auction.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then it can go up or it can go down, like it obviously many things could happen.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you go to auction, it's a bigger risk.
[SPEAKER_04]: But do you remember where you are still right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm still right in that chair.
[SPEAKER_03]: I lived that moment.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have seen that moment many times in my mind.
[SPEAKER_03]: And my only sad part is I don't have it on video, which I'm also glad because I fully live in my moments in life.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know exactly where I was.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember saying to you, I have no words.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it brings tears, actually, to my eyes to remember this process of what are you sure?
[SPEAKER_03]: I, and when you text me to talk in the phone, I thought, oh, no, it's, oh, my heavens.
[SPEAKER_04]: I also remember, he said something really sweet.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if you'll remember this, but you were, so you were traveling when this happened when, when we first got the preempt.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember you saying, you know, I shared all the details and you were like, it's her.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's the one I want and meaning the editor, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because again, you you enjoyed conversations with all the editors, but the preempt came from the editor you really wanted to work with.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what I always do clients is listen, preempts are great.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if it's not from your dream editor, then it's up to you, but I wouldn't go, I wouldn't go for it no matter how much it is because you want to work with the with the person who gets your book and of all the calls, Lauren was the person who was most I don't even think she was the most enthusiastic though that's also true everyone was enthusiastic I think she got your vision like she understood your vision for this book to a different degree would you agree?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, I would absolutely great and everyone was so lovely and I think everyone could have bought the book to whatever they had that vision to be but Lauren really was the I'm going to sit beside you and you guide
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then anyway, that's what happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tracy took the print and we're here with this beautiful book in front of us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Gonna hold it up again.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just because I love holding this up this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm having a problem because usually so agents get copies of their client's books.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is normal.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's in the contract.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm having a big problem because my DMs are blowing up with people being like, I really need a copy of this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really need a copy of this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm like,
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought you really loved your mother-in-law, like, what's going on?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why did you do this book?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I do, but I could also really use this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm thinking to myself, I'll be sneaky people, kept lying to me all these years.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're asking me wrong question.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was asking the wrong question.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also they were lying to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Honestly, I'm like, hmm, now I know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now I know who actually needs this book or not, and I will say,
[SPEAKER_04]: as someone who legitimately does have a great relationship with my mother and I am very lucky.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mother-in-law, this book has types of mothers-in-law, and my mother-in-law is a wonderful type that's in this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is my biggest supporter.
[SPEAKER_04]: She texts me all the time to say, I hear you have this big thing coming up, whatever the thing is, an auction or whatever, you're amazing, you're gonna kill it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, that's all.
[SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't expect anything from it.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's just very supportive and kind, and I'm very, very lucky.
[SPEAKER_04]: And my mother-in-law was here when when we were having the calls.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember she looked like a little note.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember that?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I do.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Her note was just the best.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And do you see like this is like I feel like the test of like, do you have a supportive mother-in-law?
[SPEAKER_04]: Even when your daughter-in-law is an agent for a book like this.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're like, this is amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Good job with the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's just, oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the pieces, this is not a book about lighting your torch and going to burn down doors.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not doing that.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is about helping women feel seen, helping to share stories and give voices to the painful experiences that have happened.
[SPEAKER_03]: But also, I sat with someone
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a great relationship with my mother-in-law.
[SPEAKER_03]: I had some problems with my sister-in-law.
[SPEAKER_03]: We are now in a good place.
[SPEAKER_03]: But when I went through your book and using the vault method inside the book, I immediately yelled to my husband, we need a marriage summit because she wants to take all those exercises just so they can get really aligned.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's what that method is.
[SPEAKER_03]: And a lot of people have said,
[SPEAKER_03]: This I can easily use this with my father-in-law.
[SPEAKER_03]: I can easily use this with my own sister and it is about putting the marriage at the forefront because Let's be real about this when you're when you're connected when you feel secure you're more resilient and everything you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're gonna sit down at your desk
[SPEAKER_03]: and be able to be in your body and let the creative energy come through you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Rather than feeling the, we just had this fight again about the holidays and now I'm thinking about all I should have said this and we're on different pages.
[SPEAKER_03]: No, this is you getting on the same page and feeling so deeply aligned.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that is about resilience.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, I feel like what I was going to say is as someone who gets along with her mother a lot, I still really enjoyed reading the book as a reader because first of all, it helped me understand other dynamics in my life, not just mother-in-law dynamics and not just in-law dynamics, but it also really, I don't know how you're going to feel about this, but I'm going to be honest, it was really entertaining.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, there were so many stories and the stories are so juicy and
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like as an agent, I'm fascinated with human relationships.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so hearing these relationships stories, it's also really great inspiration.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like, that could be a novel.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would totally read that novel.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's just a fun book to read.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I don't think it was designed as a fun book to read.
[SPEAKER_04]: As you know, the number one goal of the book, but it's still a fun book to read.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm gonna plug the book then for authors because I know like I think of all of the amazing webinars you do and all of the such beautiful powerful conversations you have on this podcast and it is about teaching people how to write about the interiority of someone to talk about emotions to to hit those core struggles.
[SPEAKER_03]: So in chapter four you learn what relationships cycles look like.
[SPEAKER_03]: You have to show a
[SPEAKER_03]: And then in chapter three, when I go through the inner children, those inner childs that are inside of us, that still need love, support, and whatever that need is you're going to learn what 10 are and then you can use that in your story and developing your characters and that I know from writing even the first one and from your teachings and pushing me along with that one with my first book loved it so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's important.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that that really matters
[SPEAKER_04]: And I will say, chapter eight is great for tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wait, for tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it's not just the inferiority and the emotionality, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the conflict.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, great, no, it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it has so many valuable nuggets of, oh my god, this creates tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yes, as an fiction author, you might be like trying to create tension versus trying to diffuse tension.
[SPEAKER_04]: But learning to diffuse is essential to also reflect resolution, which might happen in your novel.
[SPEAKER_04]: So something to think about, everyone listening.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hardest part of writing this book, An EASY is part.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh goodness, and I love Rose and Thorn.
[SPEAKER_03]: We do that at the dinner table with our kids all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: The hardest part, the hardest part of writing this one, CC, is actually the timeline.
[SPEAKER_03]: I gave a really tight timeline with the belief that I could do this, knowing how ready this book was to come.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I remember speaking to someone who is working with
[SPEAKER_03]: Huh, four months.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, most people write a book in 12.
[SPEAKER_03]: Most self-help experts, you know, you're an expert in your field, right, books in 12 months, a month a chapter.
[SPEAKER_03]: And you know, she was hesitant that we were gonna do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I said, we're going to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I am going to do this.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I did.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you did it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I did.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think I even submitted a week early, which is always like my jokes and jokes and jokes.
[SPEAKER_03]: Something in the early days, only.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that was hard because I sat down with my family.
[SPEAKER_03]: And again, this is the invisible stuff that people don't see as authors.
[SPEAKER_03]: When you see my book launch happening, when you see the posts on Instagram, the email letters, you don't see behind the scenes that I sat down with my kids and I said, hey, I've got this book deal.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm writing a second book and I'm going to really need you all to support me through the next four months.
[SPEAKER_03]: And they did.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the most beautiful thing is my daughter.
[SPEAKER_03]: She was seven when I shared this with her.
[SPEAKER_03]: She said, mom, we've done this before.
[SPEAKER_03]: We know how to do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: but it was just the support from family.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that would be the thorn.
[SPEAKER_03]: The rows of this really is the entire experience from torture and penguins.
[SPEAKER_03]: The whole team has just really championed the book, stood behind it, having you as part of this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean this journey,
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so meaningful because of how much I know people need this book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Just how much.
[SPEAKER_03]: And last yesterday on the coaching call, people saying, I feel not alone.
[SPEAKER_03]: I needed this.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel so seen.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm so glad it's not just me.
[SPEAKER_03]: And to know that this is meeting people where they're at, that is the most meaningful and powerful thing about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Man, I know that's not quite about the writing process, but
[SPEAKER_04]: No, but you know, it's all it's all creation.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I don't know if you had to fill in the blank of the following sentence.
[SPEAKER_04]: How would you fill in the blank?
[SPEAKER_04]: I am a blank writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh
[SPEAKER_03]: The first thing that comes to mind is I am a spicy writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you believe that or not.
[SPEAKER_03]: Am I a spicy writer?
[SPEAKER_03]: Why did I think spicy?
[SPEAKER_04]: Wait, but I don't have to find spicy.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: I want to bring forward conversations that people are not having.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, in that case.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I mean.
[SPEAKER_04]: See, we think spicy like sexy writing, like actual erotica.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're a brave writer.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're a brave man.
[SPEAKER_04]: I also think you're a chameleon, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's an adjective for that chameleonique.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's probably not a word.
[SPEAKER_04]: We can make it up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you're you're capable of of switching gears and writing in different styles and with different intentions in a very impressive in-depth way, which is really hard to do.
[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_04]: What message would you have for someone?
[SPEAKER_04]: who wants to write, whether it's a memoir, ask book, kind of like your first book, whether it's self-help, expert-driven.
[SPEAKER_04]: Someone who wants to write in the non-fiction is based creative, non-fiction.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like, what advice would you have for them?
[SPEAKER_03]: the belief that your story should be told that you need to first sink into whatever that is for you and to believe that your story needs to be told and shared and then to just keep sharing and talking about it and writing it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you get stuck, one of the things I really
[SPEAKER_03]: leaned into through writing is not sitting at a desk.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go for walks and then I voice note myself as if I'm writing and I talk about concepts and ideas and I tell stories just through hearing my voice.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so it's not this traditional, you see me sitting at a desk writing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm doing it in so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're always creating.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, to wrap this up, we're going to do a lightning round.
[SPEAKER_04]: I asked an on social media what advice or or comment did you grow up hearing about in laws in your family.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'll share my own something I heard as a kid a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's how I kicked it off.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, I'll share mine first.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something that my mom would hear a lot, which I overheard, because I was the child in a house, was never complained about your husband doting on his mom because a good husband is a good son first.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, we're going to go through all these examples, and you're going to tell me lightning round if you've heard this before in session from your clients or not.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a feeling you're going to hurt all of them, but maybe there's an original one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Number one, never marry a mama's boy.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it before.
[SPEAKER_04]: My mother would advise me cut the umbilical cord between her partner and his mother.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep, yep, umbilical cord.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a very powerful analogy for the enmeshment that occurs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my god, this one I've heard before too.
[SPEAKER_04]: A son is a son till he takes a wife, a daughter,
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I have heard of some other pieces around something like that, but no, I haven't heard that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: Same again, just I can hold on to it.
[SPEAKER_04]: A son is a son till he takes a wife.
[SPEAKER_04]: A daughter is a daughter, the rest of her life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow, I've never heard that before.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you know what?
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, but I wonder if it's a
[SPEAKER_03]: is exactly the struggle though.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is raised across cultures, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but but this is the daughter.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I haven't heard that rhyme before, but the daughter turns to her family, always.
[SPEAKER_03]: But then the son is more likely to leave his family and not seek out their support because she goes with life.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Another one.
[SPEAKER_04]: How they act around their family will influence how they
[SPEAKER_04]: Always meet them first before you marry, so you know what you're going to be stuck with.
[SPEAKER_04]: Stockers don't have a word.
[SPEAKER_03]: Never have that before of course.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, and in my book, I talk about do you choose your husband or do you choose your family?
[SPEAKER_04]: To be the bigger person and not argue with them.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is the advice this person heard.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh gosh, yeah, I've heard that and that I think I mean we don't need to use the word argue, but I think that feeds into this like why is it that we get so stuck here because this idea that daughters and law should be obedient and this generation is not following into that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's such nonsense, because I mean, I am a very deeply confrontational person, so take this with a grain of salt listeners, but be the bigger person and not argue.
[SPEAKER_04]: I agree that argues not the best for it, but how are you the bigger person by remaining silent?
[SPEAKER_04]: Not speaking your truth like how is that being the bigger person like I don't like this framing I understand the person's not advocating for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: She sharing things.
[SPEAKER_04]: She heard yes, but that's and that is the part that she was given Yeah, 100% oh my god look at this one be kind to your mother and law.
[SPEAKER_03]: She gave up her son I have actually heard mothers and law say you stole my son you stole my son for me
[SPEAKER_04]: This person said, doing the dishes is a perfectly legal escape from his or her family.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's not, there's a caveat in here.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's a nuance.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're allowed to say I don't like this behavior.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_03]: But be that negative care for, though, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And so my guidance to people, though, is do not attack your husband's mother because you instantly trigger defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_03]: In any child, you would trigger defensiveness.
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to talk about behavior that you don't like.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you want to validate, I mean, if assuming that validation is married it, but not, yeah, not until you handle your family and let him handle his.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I have heard that one many times, and that also is a nuanced piece of guidance.
[SPEAKER_04]: Watch how he treats his mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how he'll treat you.
[SPEAKER_03]: I've heard it before, and I, you didn't ask me what my opinion on it is, but I am going to to share that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, we should always.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think that really, like, that depends.
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's such a psychologist response to say, it depends.
[SPEAKER_03]: But because we see the broad human behavior and it's not what one person does everybody does because there are many situations where mom is on a pedestal and then he asks you to just obey and the treatment's not the same.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mom gets permission, but you are not given that same treatment.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like that's, I honestly feel, again, I am not the expert here, but like, again, as someone who's obsessed with human relationships, I feel like this sort of framing is actually feeding into the conflict because so much of the conflict comes from women feeling like it's an either or thing, like you can either be loyal to your mother or your wife,
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it's stealing your son when you marry someone.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you are, that means you were now the mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants to be a mother to your husband, like that is not to smellable.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I think this sort of framing feeds the, no one says, oh, watch is how he treats, I don't know, his coworker, or that's how he'll treat you.
[SPEAKER_04]: They specifically go to the mother.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like that just feeds into the whole, like you are replacing the mother when you marry.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is just, I mean, first of all, Ike.
[SPEAKER_04]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Nobody wants that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also weird.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: And also, just for listeners if they are in this sticky point, what I say to couples, I say this to men very clearly, we're not asking you to abandon your family.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now you are prioritizing your chosen family.
[SPEAKER_03]: Those emotions and needs in your home have to come first.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you, and that's where my vault method comes in.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're building this sturdy structure.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're married.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's supposed to be aligned and on the same team.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then you bring your mom in in a way that works for both of you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to quote my husband here.
[SPEAKER_04]: My husband definition of love.
[SPEAKER_04]: We once had a discussion like what is love?
[SPEAKER_04]: And he said love is priority and initially I was like I don't know that I and then later I was like, oh, yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah, it's priority.
[SPEAKER_03]: Love is priority.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, you need to know what the priority is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, Dr. Tracy.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you for joining.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to hold up the book one more time as a very proud agent.
[SPEAKER_04]: Isn't it beautiful, everyone?
[SPEAKER_04]: So please go check out you, your husband and his mother, whether you're reading this because you really need this book because you're stuck in a dynamic that you want to feel unstuck and empowered, whether you're reading this for help with writing your own fiction, because it's filled with interesting relationship dynamics or whether you're just reading this for entertainment because it's also super entertaining.
[SPEAKER_04]: Please go check it out.
[SPEAKER_04]: It comes out on November 4th, and we're also excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Welcome all listeners to a very, very, very special episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm like the happiest person over here right now because today we have an author who's book is going to change the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I'm not kidding.
[SPEAKER_04]: I am not overselling it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So Dr. Jonathan Lasseter is a polymath whose mission is to help others heal and thrive.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's a licensed clinical psychologist, author, speaker, and educator.
[SPEAKER_04]: Dr. Lassiter has been featured on NBC, PBS, Cyrus XM, Forbes, and more.
[SPEAKER_04]: His psychotherapy practice is based in New York City, and this is not in his bio, but he's also my adored client, his book, How I Know White People Are Crazy, and other stories notes from a frustrated black psychologist, you know, all my books are special, but
[SPEAKER_04]: I just I'm hugging this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm hugging this one.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want you guys to know that I'm hugging this one, who is a very special welcome doctor Jonathan Lassiter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having me CC.
[SPEAKER_01]: So excited to be talking with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so excited to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: talking on this podcast, in particular, this shit no one tells you about writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have no back-and-goers.
[SPEAKER_01]: I may be like, believe it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Totally do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: Totally do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's in the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, it's on the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I, because I've listened to, you know, I listened to the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm super excited to be on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm super excited to talk to you because as I've told you, countless times offline, like I just trust you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you are like,
[SPEAKER_01]: foundation for me in this whole process.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm excited to share with the listeners this journey that we've taken together.
[SPEAKER_04]: and it's been quite a journey.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's go all the way back to gosh 2021.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: 2021, I think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you sent out a query letter to PS literary, my former agency, but plot twist, the query letter wasn't for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell us about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Put us in that headspace of like, I'm sending out a query letter.
[SPEAKER_04]: How are you feeling?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I'm going to go a few steps back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've always known that I'm on it to write a trade press book.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really know what's called trade press book, but I knew I wanted to write a book for the larger audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I grew up reading like these back-and-selectuals like Cornell, like Bell Hooks, and I was like, I've won a write a book like that once.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was at the point of my career.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had already written an academic book and I was like I'm ready to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: on the big scale, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is a trade press.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I literally went to Google.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, first, I was like, I want to write a book, but I wanted to be on New York Times for sellers, which that sort of changed now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I love we could get there later, but that was the initial thought, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only I wanted to write a book, but one of my biggest big book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I went to Google and I was like, how do you get a book on New York Times?
[SPEAKER_01]: That sellers list, and then it was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's a particular process and you need a book agent, and I was like, well, how do you get an agent?
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the next Google search?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so there was like, you have to thank you Google.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's like you have to do a query and I was like,
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the truth?
[SPEAKER_01]: So literally Google told me how to do this and I'm really good at following directions most of the time and so I just looked up some examples and I sent out a ton of query emails and I think I originally sent
[SPEAKER_01]: The letter I sent to PS literary, it was, I think, was for Carly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Carly, what was, yeah?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it was like three months later, I hadn't heard anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was getting ready to go out on another round of queries because I hadn't heard anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got the email from Carla saying, hey, this isn't really for me, but I have this other person, she's see who I think might be really interested in this project.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was at Maratia, her special mutual vision at the first site, who's been with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, yeah, we've been on this journal ever since.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so grateful to Carly because she thought of me for the second she shared the pitch with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was like, now give it to me name.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to read all of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was so excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then, of course, you and I hopped on the phone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, you know, it's all about the match.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I knew, I knew our styles would mesh really well, right away.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because we just clicked, it was like, this is the best.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really want you to sign with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember being really nervous that you wouldn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this just goes to show you that, you know, sometimes the stars align and it's not necessarily the person, you know, who the letters directed to, but the right person.
[SPEAKER_04]: I firmly believe as long as you put in the work and you keep the faith, the stars will align and what's meant to be will will be.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we matched, we became agent client.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you set out to work on a revised proposal.
[SPEAKER_04]: How was that process?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that was,
[SPEAKER_01]: learning process, but I was excited about it because again, I was like, I have to do your cutie age.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, let's go.
[SPEAKER_01]: real thing it was this thing that I've been dreaming about and I was like okay I'm actually doing this and I didn't know any of this book proposal I just thought you wrote the book and you sent it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that you did a proposal first for non-fiction, right and so you walked me through that and that was it was a great process and you really were invaluable and like
[SPEAKER_01]: help me even frame the blue because again I've coming from from the academic point of view because I was professor, you know, and so I was like really research heavy and you were like Center around your stories think about stories and what are the lessons you learned from them and how does this relate to your central thesis and that was such a powerful reframe and definitely
[SPEAKER_01]: I think have made for a better book than the one I imagined that I would write when I initially started the process.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's really surprising to me because actually the thing that most stood out in your work.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I should say the two things, it's two pieces.
[SPEAKER_04]: One is your perspective, you have a very unique perspective.
[SPEAKER_04]: Only you could write this book, only you could tell the story.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I know you come from an academic background.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I know that this is your first foray into trade publishing, but your voice is a storyteller.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's always been so strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, even in your query letter, you're a very voicey writer.
[SPEAKER_04]: We live in a day and age where
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like so many things are level headed and there's no perspective.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think because people have, I don't know, almost polish themselves too much.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if that's the word, but you have such a sharp perspective, such a sharp point of view.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like that's something that's increasingly rare.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're an entertainer, I think.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like you're a showman.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have that charisma, you have that ability, you've always had it, always in everything.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like I've watched your videos online, I've watched your interviews.
[SPEAKER_04]: And like that's storyteller voice.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love hearing that I that I encourage you to tap into it further, but it's it was always there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like always there was there always there in your proposal.
[SPEAKER_04]: So okay, proposals ready.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then we we actually had a call, you me, and probably in.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't even, you mean Brian have it a lot of calls.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, what does it want you to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I meant for us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Very first one.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you wanted to make the, because the proposal is usually a word document, but you wanted me to really want to make it pretty.
[SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember?
[SPEAKER_04]: And you were like, can you hop on a call and tell our listeners who Brian is?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you go on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so Brian is the love of my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always get mushy when I talk about him because like, I just really love him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Brian's my husband and he has a background.
[SPEAKER_01]: in design.
[SPEAKER_01]: He worked on Wall Street doing design brands for kind of years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I was doing the proposal, he was like, we should design something, make it more like an actual book with the cover and stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he had all these ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, Brian is also
[SPEAKER_01]: in love with you too, because he's always like, well, what does C C thing?
[SPEAKER_01]: What does C C?
[SPEAKER_01]: Text C C. So he wanted to talk to you about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had nine ideas.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, this, I feel like this is an interesting anecdote for our listeners because, you know, when you write a book, definitely there's one name on the cover and that is Dr. Jonathan Lazar.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you know what?
[SPEAKER_04]: You need a team behind you, a team of supporters, or team of cheerleaders, a team of people who challenge you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you're lucky enough to have family, in this case your husband, who can bring, you know, an ear, if you need an ear, if you can bring, I don't know, his talent, if you need his talent, it's really helpful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I encourage everyone out there who's listening to this and you're working on your book.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you are lucky enough to have people, whether it's family or not, it doesn't matter at the end of the day, but people behind you, it doesn't have to be lonely, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like that makes a difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really true and I don't think I've done this on any other platform because no one really asked me so thank you for asking you But you know I acknowledge him in the book, but I will say that he really, you know
[SPEAKER_01]: behind the scenes when we talk about the look, I'm like, this is our book, because he was reading every single chapter draft, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, no, too many statistics in this one, it's too researchy, you know, go back, real ranged is into spurs, the story with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he really helped me,
[SPEAKER_01]: shape that voice that you're talking about because it is there but I fear that I have a tendency to try to be too polished because that's the world I grew up in like as an elder millennial right it's always beyond your age and the vulnerability piece too so he definitely also helped me with the structure and tone and gave me tons of feedback so yeah so he's definitely a
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, that's really exciting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I just feel like there's always a village to support and there should be anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, so we have the super beautiful proposal, we send it out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then, of course, I remember texting you one day, they were like, hey, can we go up on the phone?
[SPEAKER_04]: And we got on the phone, and I'm like, do you have enough of her?
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, okay, how did you feel?
[SPEAKER_04]: So, this book's story is unique.
[SPEAKER_04]: The editor, the acquiring editor of this book, ended up
[SPEAKER_04]: not being the editor that worked on you with this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's a complicated story, people.
[SPEAKER_04]: So tell us about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Tell us about the first experience of receiving the offer and let it initial call.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so before that, to that very first offer, one, I was like super excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Real quick, I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have other friends who are trying to publish books and they're like, you know this was super fast, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, no, I was like, I was, I was, I was over the dressing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the editor was like, I really want this book, but I have to take it back to yeah, you know the hits and that one never came through because I think she couldn't get the big folks to sign off on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then maybe
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but then yeah, it was it was one prior I just remember then who came in, but we didn't like the offer.
[SPEAKER_04]: There was one person who did not come in and then there was the per anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember now all of these have been to many years.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been exactly a journey.
[SPEAKER_01]: So but when we did get the offer to actually came through.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very exciting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, oh my gosh, you know, and I'll share with your listeners because I know that these are people who are in writing who are in this journey, a lot of them at the beginning stages.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, you know anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you were like, this is a good offer.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I thank you for that because I was like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_04]: the publishing house for personal reasons, and then I got the industry, the industry period, it wasn't a thing to do with another house, like she left publishing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I got the book was picked up by our signed, I don't actually know what happened on the back end.
[SPEAKER_01]: to another editor who did a couple of drafts with, what's very helpful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think that imprint, the guy that I'm grateful to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: That imprint folded.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we had to navigate quite a few things.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it folded.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that editor was, I don't know what the situation was, because they don't want to miss speak, but no longer in that role.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so imprint gone, editor gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Johnson is all of a sudden as his third editor, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: All of a sudden in my third editor, and again, I'm not a book person.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm a book person, I read books, but I'm not an industry person, you know, so I don't, again, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know much more now, but at the time I didn't know the incident, so like, which imprint it's witch and which editors editor, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And resources and things like that, which is something else you taught me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every imprint doesn't have the same resources, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I remember when we got
[SPEAKER_01]: to the third editor and I was like, oh, I'm a sighted because she's a black woman, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was exciting for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, but I don't know really anything besides it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you were like, no, this is, this is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_04]: For everyone who's listening for Sean Trotman, that's Jonathan's editor.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is known in the industry as the Beyoncé of Books.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, she is a powerhouse.
[SPEAKER_04]: She is someone who,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't, like, just Google Christian trauma.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to do the work for you guys for your listeners because you just have to Google this woman and get to know her and follow her on Instagram.
[SPEAKER_04]: She's a wonderful Instagram presence who totally demystifies the publishing process.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when Christian reached out to me because Christian reached out to me first, I was like, already in my head going, I'm so excited that Jonathan's going to get to work with Christian.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, it's...
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I was really excited.
[SPEAKER_04]: But of course, it's still stressful.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so stressful, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: To be like, wait, I'm on my third editor.
[SPEAKER_04]: My book isn't even out yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was, it was very stressful.
[SPEAKER_01]: The book pushed back because we thought we were going to have a earlier pub date.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, but we shot came in and the crush I was very handsome on and I'm thankful for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: or someone's like, actually, again, I want to fine tune this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to make this to be shorter, so we cut out my five chapters from the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, this needs to be sort of,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the through line she really had a lot of great ideas and helped mold the book even more, but that pushed the public back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like really concerned about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then eventually I was just like, let's not get it except this right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is as part of the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, that was again, a big development that I was again, everything was such a learning process.
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing about publishing is, if you want to succeed in the traditional publishing space, anyone listening, you need three things.
[SPEAKER_04]: You need a talent for storytelling, a talent for writing.
[SPEAKER_04]: These are two completely different things.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the third thing you need is a winning mindset.
[SPEAKER_04]: And part of the winning mindset, which by the way is the hardest of all three to achieve.
[SPEAKER_04]: Part of the winning mindset is being able to pivot and adapt.
[SPEAKER_04]: like life will throw you curveballs.
[SPEAKER_04]: Publishing will throw you curve boulders.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, and so these boulders are going to be the way you have to like you have to find a way to not only get out of the way of the boulder but dance while doing it and look good and so you do that I know it was hard I know you're saying it was hard job and but the thing the thing that makes you such a dream client to work with in addition to your talent.
[SPEAKER_04]: is the fact that you know, like you just understand how the world works.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's so many people out there who like, I want to have this, what you have, a name on a book cover, you know, a book in bookstores and the major bookstores and with a major press.
[SPEAKER_04]: But they don't understand that in order to get this, you would, yes, it's very prestigious and amazing and, oh my gosh, amazing to be able to hold your own book.
[SPEAKER_04]: You actually have to, you have to play chess.
[SPEAKER_04]: with boulders coming here.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was Anneville's coming your way, you know?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's really hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really hard and you have that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so my question to you is, throughout all this learning process that you've mentioned, what's something that you, if you could go back?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like you could go back to younger Jonathan, you know, Jonathan, when he decided to first write a book for the White audience, it's like, what message would you convey?
[SPEAKER_04]: If any, maybe you would want to not mess with a, you know, space time continuum, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I would want to know,
[SPEAKER_01]: how long the process could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you said, how many pivot stare would be?
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, right size, my expectations, because I, again, I came into this, like, I want to be in New York Times, but so interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be great if it's still happening, however everyone, right, but I was pretty so much pressure on myself and it took away from being able to enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think I would tell that younger version of myself to enjoy the process more because you're right, like I'm about any means necessary person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I'm like,
[SPEAKER_01]: So the game is chess.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and I play chess, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm like nothing's more important than a Confishing the goal, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: My emotions.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll handle them on the back end, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll cry to my husband, but you know I'm gonna do what's required, but part of that was like I didn't enjoy it, and I had friends who were like
[SPEAKER_00]: You're out of major book deal with a top five publishing, like you're miserable.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why aren't you enjoying it?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I wish I would have told myself to not focus on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, being, again, or a Cornell West race matters and how that blew up, I mean, I know that was in the 90s, but that was sort of like the very first vision of what I had in mind, but that took away my ability to really be in each of those moments and enjoy them to the max, not to say that there was no joy in the process.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of joy in the process, but I would tell my younger self that,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's really wise.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like every author goes into this being like near-time specialder.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's just something about that list, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: We spend a lot of time on the podcast attempting to, I hope we succeed, but attempting to educate people and say, look, this is the percentage of books that make it to do your time special or list.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't remember the number now, but it's something like 0.001%.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a curated list.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not just based on numbers.
[SPEAKER_04]: If it were based on numbers, we would all be able to predict the list by looking at sales and we can't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I use analogies.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say things like, if you decide to be an actor, you don't want to win an Oscar in your first audition.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, I try so hard, but it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_04]: No matter what I say, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_04]: everyone has this goal.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I feel like, you know, if you're able to do what you seem to be doing, which I so admire, which is like, yeah, yes, it's still something I want.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not going to say I don't want it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I'm not going to let it take away from the parts I can control and the joy of the process.
[SPEAKER_04]: Then I think it's a really awesome goal to have.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just feel like it can't be, I say this to authors all the time, don't allow the rigidity of your goals to take away from the joy of your accomplishments.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because there's so many accomplishments, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: Look, it's so amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And each of those steps that we talk about, we talked about in that journey is an accomplishment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me and I've done this in other areas of my life too, it's like all the chief things and check onto the next thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I found myself doing that with this project as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: yeah it's definitely okay so we you matched with kishan you edited the book how is the publicity piece of it because I know you have again big goals and you're very charismatic and you're one of those authors who's very willing to put you from out the book
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's talk about the publicity piece.
[SPEAKER_04]: What did you do?
[SPEAKER_04]: Like, what decisions did you make to promote your book?
[SPEAKER_04]: How can you've been finding that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Your book isn't out yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: We are recording this on Halloween, guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the book is not out yet, but, you know, hopefully by the time you guys are listening to this interview, you'll be like, I'm not using.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, hopefully you have the book and you love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of publicity, I went big.
[SPEAKER_01]: At least I think it's big.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she said, I have big goals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I, in addition to working with the in-house publicity at Legacy Lit, I am publicity and marketing team, who are great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also hired my own outside PR firm and they're doing amazing work.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I did not know, and I'll be honest because again,
[SPEAKER_01]: I want people to learn from for my journey, it's so expensive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not expect it to be that expensive, but I also at the time felt like if I have any chance, I had to get outside because again, I'm coming from the academic where I'm coming from.
[SPEAKER_01]: a therapist where I'm being the psychologist doing therapy with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, I'm not huge on social.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have a huge name.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how am I going to get this book in front of anyone if I don't have this team, this part of the village that can amplify the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went that route and I don't regret it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an investment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like again, Brian and I
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're doing it, but it is, it's no small thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, but they are doing, I'm pleased with what's happening, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing, you know, to keep in mind for our listeners, this is an educational resources, publicity is very expensive, and it's not something that has guaranteed results.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when a publicist says that to you, they're not, they're not being about publicist.
[SPEAKER_04]: In fact, just the opposite.
[SPEAKER_04]: publicity doesn't come with any guarantees.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you pay for, I don't know, an ad in magazine X, then you are guaranteed that ad.
[SPEAKER_04]: What that ad will do is a different story, but that's not how publicity works.
[SPEAKER_04]: publicity is the efforts that a team will put into your book in terms of free media space.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess it's the best way to describe it that I can come up with right now.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there's no guarantee of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's no guarantee, but I'll also say in addition to that,
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that I learned, you have to be able to put the city in there is how much I am responsible for, again, I'm an older millennial born in the 80s, grew up in the 90s, so I was thinking, oh, you get a book deal with a major publisher and they have this huge machine and they do have a huge machine, but they're going to do all this work and they're just going to be like, they're going to blow you up like Stephen King, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, oh no, who are your contacts?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, isn't that why I'm talking to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a logical, it's a logical, it's a logical process.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wrote the book.
[SPEAKER_04]: You bring the contacts right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: The new slash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Death to Howard's buddy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was, again, a big learning moment for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I found that actually do know more people than I thought, and I learned to move past my fear of people being like, oh, why are you contacting me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Get out of here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the fear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, if I send this email, they'll be like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, they don't know who I am, they'll think I'm silly or whatever lame and they're not going to want to promote the book or even be interested in reading the books to think about promoting the book, but actually people have been
[SPEAKER_01]: So excited about the book and they've been so generous people have been posting on their social medias.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been in contact with book clubs and they are very excited about reading it and particularly sharing and people have been emailing me even like first chapter in they haven't even finished a book but first chapter in they're like
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, this is so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've had one guy who's a head of a book club, what's like, this book has changed my life in the past few days.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh my god, someone else posted on there Instagram, how I know white people are crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And other sources of B3, I'm reading it on the beach right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just, oh my god,
[SPEAKER_01]: This thing that worked so hard on and they're getting it like the voice that you talk about people are like, oh my god, your voice is so clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so accessible.
[SPEAKER_01]: and your intelligence shines through as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, that's not a boast, it's a relief because I know how intentional I was, how many drafts it was, and how much of killing my darlings it was, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, I'm a bi-enemies, necessary person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you Brian, you know, my editors,
[SPEAKER_01]: I would be in love with something and every night now this don't work with this to academic this to anybody but whatever and I would be like
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, get rid of it, however, it's still hurt, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: There was an initial sting, and I was very, I'm a very disciplined person, so I was very disciplined and to get that depth of emotion and voice, I had to really put myself back in those moments, and a lot of it was painful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for people to be reading it and say to me, oh my gosh,
[SPEAKER_01]: this is so powerful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel the emotion.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is so clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: The insights are there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, thank God, because I was so focused on that meticulous work that that would be what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact that it is happening, I'm just so relieved.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something that our listeners always ask us about particularly when they're writing memoir or any memoir adjacent book and there is a lot of your story in this book, you know, this book.
[SPEAKER_04]: This book has so much vulnerability and intimate moments that you are sharing, hard moments to share, inspiring moments to share, growth moments that you're sharing.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to read book and my life's going to be out there and there are people in my life who, you know, they, they are in this book too from your perspective, like how, how do you handle that how emotionally, psychologically and just practically how did you handle that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, smiling audience.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a emotional roller coaster, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So many emotions came into playing when thinking about putting my life in there and the vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it can't see, see, you're so great, you were like, no one likes a perfect person.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were like, people like messy people.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, oh, okay, it was scary, but I'm a by any means necessary person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, yes, I'm putting it out here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, in doing that though, again, it taken a motion to, I remember I have Circus El Nimeo, which I write about in the book, which is a, you know, congenital chronic illness.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember writing about a pain crisis I had.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a paragraph or two.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after writing that, I was done for the rest of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't writing anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: Luckily, I didn't have to teach that day.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, literally on the couch for the rest of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that was what was required to give that vulnerability.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's a part of that journey of putting my life on display.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other part was that some of the people who I feel like perpetuated a lot of the microaggressions that illustrate the whiteness mindset that I write about in the book, I kind of wanted to put them on blast.
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of me was like, I want to say their name, but legal purposes, you can't, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of that was I took this in silence, but now I'm using my boys to highlight these injustices.
[SPEAKER_01]: So part of it was that as well, until in my personal story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if it's not scary, you're doing it wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like it's supposed to be scary.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's supposed to be,
[SPEAKER_04]: emotionally draining.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's not fair that it is because you already went through so much, but that's the storyteller's burden to bear, I suppose.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you had to pet your buck.
[SPEAKER_04]: like you're an elevator, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: And you're with, I don't know, a major producer.
[SPEAKER_04]: You guys are an elevator right together.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's like, oh, so what's your book about?
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: Would you be able to do it?
[SPEAKER_04]: I test out every author just so you know, I'm like, could you do it?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because sometimes published authors are like, I don't even know what my book's genre.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, could you pitch your book if you had to?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I would, I hope I would be able to, but I don't know if you could.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's here, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, here's the page.
[SPEAKER_01]: a black male psychologist pulls back the curtain on the narrowness of mental health and psychology field.
[SPEAKER_01]: He tells stories from personal life about discrimination but also triumph of how he went from a young boy and Georgia with the chronic illness to this acclaimed and respected psychologist.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, you did it, that was amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, so another question I have is about the title.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know it was for a moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: We almost didn't have, so I have obsessed with this title, okay?
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know from our listeners and I want honesty.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want honesty.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do not want you guys to say what you think I want to hear.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you feel about the title?
[SPEAKER_04]: How I know white people are crazy and other stories.
[SPEAKER_04]: Notes from a frustrated black psychologist.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to know how you feel about this title.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have no doubt in my mind that this is a title that can spark controversy because Jonathan was actually asked to change this title by two different editors and The title is still here.
[SPEAKER_04]: The title did not change.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I suppose in the original version, there was no notes from a frustrated black psychologist, but that also was not the controversial piece.
[SPEAKER_04]: The controversial piece was how I know why people are crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: How do you feel about that request?
[SPEAKER_04]: And we just held the story of how this title came to be kept.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So...
[SPEAKER_01]: I think from the very beginning, from the very first editor, there was talk about, oh, would you be open to changing the title, if it came to that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I'm about any means necessary person.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, sure, right, Long's the book is out.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, I loved the title.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was appropriate.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if I could help it, I didn't want to change it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, I wanted to project
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, there was a concern about whether or not the title could sell, you know, the controversy of it and how I think mainstream organizations, companies, schools would fill about it, would they want to bring and author to their organization or campus with a book
[SPEAKER_01]: But I felt very passionate.
[SPEAKER_01]: I still feel very passionate about it's something that I stand behind because I think it's so appropriate.
[SPEAKER_01]: How I know white people are crazy and other stories is exactly that.
[SPEAKER_01]: In it, I describe this whiteness mindset and how it makes us all crazy and
[SPEAKER_01]: how white people are the ones that benefit from it, the most.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how I know white people are crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: That particular story was about me feeling a diversity project as the only person of color from marginalized background.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it was just so appropriate because in that particular case, those white people were crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it really was a lesson in courage and believing in my vision.
[SPEAKER_01]: sticking to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it helped that you were so supportive of the title and you and you love the title so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, also the election, the election too, because I was open to changing it, but then the election happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I saw those post voting polls, you know, those statistics.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, oh, no, this, this is the white people
[SPEAKER_01]: So we need to call it what it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, this title is the act of courage.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's an attempt to call a thing, a thing, and to not shy away from the truth, or at least my truth.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, I don't want to be ridiculous and get emotional, but it might be my most proud moment as an agent in terms of observing what my client has done.
[SPEAKER_04]: I remember vividly, the title had changed to where all crazy,
[SPEAKER_04]: which is not a bad title, but it is not the best title ever, which in my opinion is how I know why people are crazy is the best title ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the election happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this was already done.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like done, like we had updated emails about it, our internal files.
[SPEAKER_04]: At my former agency, we're updated.
[SPEAKER_04]: I updated my team.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was very sad about it, but I, like you, accepted that.
[SPEAKER_04]: The book doesn't belong to Jonathan only.
[SPEAKER_04]: UCC are not the only member of the team, like this is a part of a larger good fight.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wasn't happy about it, but fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we were honest about not loving the title change, but honest also about the strategy behind it and how everyone wants the book to succeed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the election happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember the email you wrote, which was the most brilliant, kind, inspiring email.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't have it in front of me, but it essentially said, it had other things, but one of the things you said was, I think in the aftermath of the election, it has become clear to everyone that we are not all crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not all of us who are crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we think can make sense to keep the title.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you guys think?
[SPEAKER_04]: How could anyone argue with that?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what, there's look at the brilliant chess playing situation that happened, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: You were like, I suspect it is not all of us.
[UNKNOWN]: You know, no.
[SPEAKER_04]: and I was just like round of applause can I please get a standing ovation for my client here who's such a brilliant man anyway and of course everyone agreed because everyone was like you know what excellent point and you could tell that everyone would had a moment of it wasn't that you did checkmate on them because that could have been the case because it was so brilliant but no everyone had a legitimate epiphany what they were like
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're not all crazy.
[SPEAKER_04]: And again, Christian is a black woman.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mahito, who works under her, also a black, like, we have a team of people of color, and people were like, yeah, yes, we do see what you mean, you know, and so yeah, and the title became the title.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so proud of the title, of all of your work, of everything you did for this project.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could not be a frouder of this amazing book.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the brilliant stories in here, I want everyone to read this and tell me their favorite story.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's probably gonna be the diverse.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know, I don't know which one's gonna be, but there are some stories here that make you go, oh wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: So,
[SPEAKER_04]: As a last question, I always just ask this of every single person on the podcast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Please recommend us a book, either a book you read and you love or that you want to read and you're excited for or anything else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm going to go fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read a lot of nonfiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go fiction.
[SPEAKER_01]: I read it out of M. M. romance.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to recommend one of those, but what is the fiction with it?
[SPEAKER_04]: I can't recommend one of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm not going to recommend one of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I texted you about the book, and I'm right there, and all that is is new to me, but yellow face was yes, it was so good, oh my god, it's so good, it was so messed up, it's so messed up like so messed up, so I was like I, I texted you about it, I was like, how do you read it, like this is amazing, yeah, so yeah, if you just want like a really good, it's almost like a thriller and I love for others.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you want something that's like, you can really immerse yourself in and it has a really good message about cultural appropriation and race relations with all things that are important to me and one of the great parts about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry you're getting really excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the great things about it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: the insight into the publishing industry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, that was so I was like, Gary is scary, but so spot on and I was like, oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yellow face is one of the best things I've read in the past year.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, agreed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to everyone listening, we are recording this on Halloween.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it is a spooky recommendation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not in the way people expect, but it is because it will make you afraid to break into publishing, but also make you want to break into publishing.
[SPEAKER_04]: So anyway, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you so much for joining us.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been it's been wonderful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I hope we get to do this again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just, I'm so grateful for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so grateful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's it for today's episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the meantime, keep at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Remember, it just takes one yes.