[SPEAKER_00]: Hello and welcome to another edition of Turned Out of Punk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm your host, Damian Abraham, and today on the show, someone I've been a huge fan of for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone I never thought, I get a chance to talk to on this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: You may know him from the band low.
[SPEAKER_00]: You may know him from his two most recent amazing solo records.
[SPEAKER_00]: You may even know him from Zen Identity way back when Alan Sparhock is on the show today.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I say, I'm a fan of Allen for a very long time, a fan of low for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: A low is a band that won the great American bands, like one of the great American indie rock bands.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the great American punk rock bands, I think we can say after the show today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alan tragically lost his bandmate and his wife, Mimi Parker a few years ago, and after she passed away.
[SPEAKER_00]: He took some time and then has come back and done two unbelievable solar records, the latest of which is with trampled by turtles, a collaboration with fellow Duluth band trampled by turtles and they are going to be playing a show on December 11th in Minnesota.
[SPEAKER_00]: a couple shows in the new year, but if you have not heard this record with trample by turtles, check it out now, it is a very powerful piece of music as everything Allen has been involved with tends to be.
[SPEAKER_00]: Links for the record in the shows are found in the description below.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, there's not too much for me to ramble on about here like there.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a fantastic little conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got to have with Alan so I'm not going to ruin it by making some prolonged intro for it just other than to say Thank you to Tristan for organizing this huge thing you to sub pop and sit back relax and enjoy Alan Sparhock unturned out a Punk
[SPEAKER_00]: Alan thank you so much for coming on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's an honor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great to see you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's great to see you too and the honor is
[SPEAKER_00]: very much extended this way to you as well because I'm a huge fan of your music and it seems like something that's been in my life for a very long time and you're someone that I weirdly just never thought I'd get a chance to talk to for this podcast so now that the opportunity is presented itself I feel like there's a very long time coming this conversation for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, podcast sir.
[SPEAKER_02]: a great way for everybody to finally meet each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been, it's still, yeah, I enjoy it and it's great to meet you, finally.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's hard to make adult friends, you know, yeah, it's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: We, we have a subconscious control on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, maybe podcasts and things like this and going on to and running into people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's, it's a nice safe way to have friends and keep the distance, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, like once my eldest kid started playing baseball and I got exposed to a lot more quote unquote normal parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: I realized like I'm going to have to find a way to make other friends because it's not going to be through.
[SPEAKER_00]: You will love the game of baseball.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that's great.
[SPEAKER_02]: How old are your kids?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I've got a 16 year old, a 13 year old, and then just about to turn 10 year old.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man, you're here in the thick of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're getting the full spectrum.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's pretty great.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely I'm trying to take it all in and every day is like, you know, it's like a new challenge every day with kids, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, just just make it make every every crisis chill.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they'll they'll come back to you later in life when when they need someone to to talk to.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's that's my advice for
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm definitely taking that on because, yeah, I feel like, you know, the fact that you're making music with your kids, like, I feel like, if I can achieve that at some point where they're like coming back to me going, Dad, let's just make music together.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my dreams.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, it was, that's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the key is to not try too hard and give them the space to find of themselves and then they'll come find you and have you show, show you how to place, have you show them how to play something and that'll be, that'll be it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as you're about to find out Alan trying to do art is my problem, but this is about me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about you, and I've got to start off the way they all start off with, which is Alan, how'd you get in a punk during the first time you ever came across it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, she's well, probably kind of definitely dating myself here, but my father was a musician we lived in,
[SPEAKER_02]: rural northern Minnesota very far away from from any exposure to to the city or the outside world and and I think the first thing I saw my my father had this this book called Making Music and I think George what was his name the guy that produced all the Beatles records George
[SPEAKER_02]: late 70s, early 80s, the ups and downs of music, making music, everything from four track recording, home, stuff to the music business a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think my dad was just a dabble or played in some country bands and wrote songs and wanted to learn.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was a picture in there of a couple different bands, one of them was David Bowie.
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... playing with the spider's a remarks in japan and he was stripped down to just bikini briefs and the band looked really nasty and and and and and gnarly and then also in that book there was a picture of uh... the sex pistols and he talked about the sex pistols and i was like wow what what is this and i think around the same time uh... i think i was over at my aunt's place and there was a there was a one-page article in
[SPEAKER_02]: people magazine that was a feature, they're not a feature but it's like a one-page little article about punk music and about specifically New York and it showed a couple pictures of people with spiky hair and kind of got him crazy makeup and it talked about slam dancing and sort of this this intense subculture maybe around that I think so interestingly enough like visually
[SPEAKER_02]: The the the optics of punk was probably the first thing that I saw and and then sort of right around then also is The song should our stay or should I go by the class had kind of broke a little bit on the radio And I remember hearing you know, I you know up until then I was you know, I think it was into pink Floyd and whatever weird 70s were you know the doors and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: My stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: My parents had in the record collection and
[SPEAKER_02]: What what's going on here and then when someone When I sort of put the two and two together.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is punk music.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I am okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what I Hope this would be And so I think I pretty quickly went out and bought a few things I had I bought I never mind the Bullocks But the sex pistols I bought I think by then the Susan the band cheese the singles collection You know, this was maybe
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't mind, it's 79, 881, I don't know, I'm not sure when those bands, she's things, maybe that was a little later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's probably around then, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, they have those early singles.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, maybe, how maybe that was 881 or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, again, like the first sort of visually through little scraps of information that had come across and then should I say or should I go in and
[SPEAKER_02]: At the time, I think I'd picked up the guitar and kind of was dabbling a little bit and sort of it was pretty quickly intimidated by the music that I was listening to.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think when I realized that should I stay or should I go, was just three chords.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was also sort of a big,
[SPEAKER_02]: explosion in my mind and it just kind of reiterated that punk was was where my family was and where my tendencies were and so so yeah I guess you know I think meanwhile my cousins had gotten satellite TV
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, there were little bits of the very beginnings of MTV.
[SPEAKER_02]: Divo was on there, and I remember, you know, among all the other things that were sort of on there at the beginning that that resonated with me right away, and so yeah, I guess it's kind of a.
[SPEAKER_02]: collection of things, and that's what kind of got me going, and you know, little experiences after that, of course, reiterated that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, for a farm kid, it was fragmented, but powerful to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because I think I had heard you describe one time about how you had to pitch your punk rock.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was much more a visual thing for you in the beginning where it was ever a sonic thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, seeing it in this book and seeing it in people magazine, whatever, you know, it's the article that expose about this weird underground cult thing going on.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, yeah, I've
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, yeah, yeah, the visual part grabbed me right away in my curious and then like I said, when I then heard the music and it was everything that I had hoped for Having always seen it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really sunk deep.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's in that same documentary that the 2008 documentary described your parents as traveling hippies No, no, my parents, they were
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's this self-sufficiency and prepping for the end of the world kind of thing going on and I think my parents at a certain point when we were young kind of took that to heart and moved us from Utah out into rural Minnesota to be on a farm and to essentially work toward being self-sustaining, you know, like growing our own food, farming animals, farming,
[SPEAKER_02]: We had a bunch of raw wheat, you know, started a basement to live on, and so yeah, not necessarily hippies, hippies, but definitely, yeah, I was said, I was call it back to the land, back to the land movement was sort of a post hippy thing that put the Mormon version was, you know, less, less long hair and weed, but in more.
[SPEAKER_02]: more kind of borderline, you know, borderline permit, kind of detaching from from from from normal culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: But a little culty.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was was the music like how do your parents react to kind of getting into this stuff with the punk stuff?
[SPEAKER_02]: As I started kind of dressing a little bit to reflect that for sure, may.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think my mom was sort of okay with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she was excited that I wanted to sort her hair because up until then I would fight her on the haircuts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, yeah, she was what I became interested in having spiky hair.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she kind of didn't see what was going on and just saw that I was finally coming around to short hair.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I don't know, maybe not until I was maybe,
[SPEAKER_02]: 14 or 15, I think there was a little bit of rubbing, rubbing the my father the wrong way a little bit with the way I was dressing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think he, you know, there was there was a little bit of you know, you know, God bless him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, he was a pretty open person and you know, and towards later in the life we became pretty good friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, some of the trappings of that, uh, the hints that make up in jewelry and kind of bandana's hanging off of your, you know, kind of, kind of, I don't know, there was a little phase there where like adamant, the look, the adamant look was sort of sort of pouring at me and, and
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think my father was a little bit shocked and gave me some kind of side comments that I remember grit and I teeth about and you're like, oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fuck you, Dad.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you look at it as being like a rejection of your parents' worldview or is like sort of the end of the world apocalyptic kind of lyrical content of the band like the sex business was kind of in line with that to you at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it probably was more in line.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, my parents weren't necessarily, they weren't hippies, so the whole punk against hippy thing didn't necessarily become a factor.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I think fascination with,
[SPEAKER_02]: with sort of subculture and more kind of stuff that was going on in more like cities and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they were necessarily like worried that I was pulling away from sort of this more back to the land vibe as much as that, I don't know, came from Utah, which was pretty sheltered and we're up on a farm and trying to incorporate
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, trying to blend into the, you know, the more conservative culture up there too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and so I think I think the, you know, the different looking clothing and stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, understandably, it was a little bit of a shock to them, maybe, and a little bit uncomfortable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a stressful time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, my parents kind of had some troubles and divorced when I was, early in my bat, they separated when I was like 14, 15 and there was a lot of, I was the oldest son, so it was sort of naturally, there was friction between my father and I and kind of me being old enough to know that that he'd fucked up.
[SPEAKER_02]: But young enough to not realize that if you throw that in his face and agitate him, it's just going to make shit worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, the grinding against the norm and grinding against maybe one of my parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's understandable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in most a lot of kids kind of around that time you're you want to establish your own vibe and some of that means sort of identifying with something that's a little bit contrary to your parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, he was cut out of the house by the time I was 16, 17 and I was sort of free to be who I wanted to be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And my then
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, by then I'd gained a few friends who sort of were opening that resonance, you know, despite it being a pretty small community.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were a couple of us, you know, Mim, Mim, and you know, I had known Mim since we'd moved there when I was nine, and we were in the same class, and we'd by the time we were 16, 15, 16, we were pretty tied.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was into the author of music, and she had a cousin who had lived in the opposite center some records because she knew she was into different music and, you know, stuff like violent fums and who's could do.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, by that age, I had a friend or two that felt like we had a little tribe, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really hear like the Bob mold influence, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really at least I'm perceiving as a Bob mold influence on a retribution gospel choir stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, Bob definitely who's going to do is a huge influence on me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, different, different phases of my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: There were certain records that were just very present.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, I don't know, I did, I think there was something about it being punk, but also.
[SPEAKER_02]: pop, really kind of catchy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also the way the way they distorted things, you know, Bob's guitar was sort of this larger perverse distortion that the resonated to me and also I think ultimately once I started getting into guitar in by the time I was 19 kind of messing with
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll turn it, I'll turn it to Tunings and sort of, I don't know, I play an open G and there's a lot of drone possibilities and different voicings on that and I think when I stumbled on that, I think I subconsciously sort of all the, everything that I had absorbed from who's could do started to sort of come out and you know, because there's, yeah, I don't know if Bob necessarily uses
[SPEAKER_02]: the way he plays and sort of voicings and the way he puts chords together that was like, oh,
[SPEAKER_02]: recognize this this different voicing vibe and and so yeah I've definitely recognized that yeah who's could do is it plus who's could do is for Minneapolis and sort of that idea that just you know just three or four hours away was this thing and you know by then by then Prince you know Prince was a big thing too so there's a little bit of identity connected with Minneapolis and the punk scene there and
[SPEAKER_02]: I think one point, maybe when I was, I might have been 16 or something, I think my mom had gotten this job, and she had to go down to Minneapolis for some training, and she brought me with her, and I was pretty excited for some, I've been to Minneapolis, and I was really.
[SPEAKER_02]: My head was full of images that I was like, oh, man, I hope I see, I hope I see some punk stuff, and sure enough, we drove by for some reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: We drove by first Avenue, and I remember seeing it, recognizing it just from purple rain, and then some neighborhood we were in, I remember seeing someone at a trench coat at a mohawk, and I'm like, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was really pretty exciting to me and still, still very sheltered, you know, just being far away and not really having, you know, television or even other than like being at a friend's house or being at my cousin's place who had MTV.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where were you buying the records like when you were picking up like that sex business record?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, interestingly enough, there was a record store in the Meiji, which is in northern northwest Minnesota, you know, like, half an hour away from where we grew up.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I, I don't know, I think, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I, you know, a bot.
[SPEAKER_02]: while like the clash single somewhere at some radio shop nearby.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it was just because it was, it was, you know, for, for, repair that tune was actually on top 40 radio.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was available, but then, and yeah, and the midgey, there was someone.
[SPEAKER_02]: some dude who was probably hiding from somebody who opened a shop in the midgey and had a record store and he was pretty tapped in and I remember through my teen years kind of going there.
[SPEAKER_02]: bought a couple things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think as soon as I had gone there and bought, you know, like a sex pistol's tape or this or that, the guy like, oh, oh, oh, you're into punk music.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and he would, he would pitch me stuff from time to time, and I, I think that's where I first heard of the velvet on a ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, I don't know, just a handful of things.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a
[SPEAKER_02]: It's Minneapolis band, I don't know, the guy would carry indie stuff and I think he was sort of tapped into what was going on in Minneapolis and some of the, some of the early 80s kind of punk things that were going on there and any would.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, carry the stuff in his store and then, and then, you know, tip kids like me off.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, oh, you're going to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Check this out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was pretty, that was pretty formative too, but they, again, I mean, and if you, if you knew that community, you, you, and sort of got to feel for it, you realize like, yeah, this was an, it's pretty extraordinary thing that this weirdo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Somehow I had to go live in the midge.
[SPEAKER_02]: And while he's up there, he's like, well, I'm open up a record store and see what happens.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, side one records, side one records, something was called damn sounds like a lucky lucky for you that this guy had problems.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah lucky he was hiding.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think in hindsight he was probably trying to clean up
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a, you know, sometimes that's the best way to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Get the hell away from all your connections.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was TVBC on Twinto?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shoot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I don't know, I'd have to look up and we'll see when that record came out.
[SPEAKER_02]: It might, you know, I might not have picked it up until maybe I was 17, 18 or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And pretty close to going off to college or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, yeah, that, I remember, you two, let's see, war, I remember getting that kind of early on, the cure, the cure was a big one as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hear that, I hear actually the YouTube and the cure influence on the Zen identity guitar playing stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I was very into the edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: The echo and sort of counter-funk rhythm going on there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's an identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: You found that, huh?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a great video of a whole set and the photos are not my thing, but your guitar playing is really cool because then it's also very sparse at different times and the mix on this video, it's all guitar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you really know that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think of everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that was a metal bar or it's a period we opened for someone that probably someone that I don't know how we got in the bill because we were sort of the the weird
[SPEAKER_02]: You, you two are, um, crossover band and sort of, sort of, uh, yeah, almost, almost, yeah, that was a fun band when Jane's addiction hit that, that, I don't know, that's sort of push that band into some cool territory there towards the end, but yeah, that footage that's out there that's, that's very much
[SPEAKER_02]: influenced by you too in RIM and, you know, a little bit of, you know, Susan the van, she's, you know, in hindsight was was pretty, pretty early.
[SPEAKER_02]: Subconscious influence on my approach for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's like a real post punk kind of attitude of playing that you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that the show opening for Quiet Riot?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they must have been on a tough downward spiral circuit at that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just funny, because I think a few years later they were on, they were on some kind of revival monsters of
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, some sort of tour where they were playing with a few other 80s bands.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the 90s, when I still worked, you know, after we started the low, I was still working this arena in town and they would call me up to do production running and sometimes I'd end up driving the bands around and there was a very zen moment at one point in the
[SPEAKER_02]: That's driving them to their hotel, they're all like, they're all like looking at their laptops, you know, they're really early, early email days.
[SPEAKER_00]: Metal has second acts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's not in Duluth, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when did you move to Duluth, was it for college?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I moved to the Louvre in 87.
[SPEAKER_02]: I went, let's see, 86.
[SPEAKER_02]: I graduated at high school in 86, and I went to BYU for one school year, freshman year of college, mostly my mom was really,
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was just culturally a thing that you did, and my mom was really, really wanted me to go there and, you know, get away from my girlfriend at the time, which was, who was named, and, uh,
[SPEAKER_02]: So I went there for one year and then it came back and it was like now I'm going where my I'm going where my girlfriend is and went to Duluth in 87 and so yeah we're lived here we just got into college got the job at the arena.
[SPEAKER_02]: at some point while I was still in Zen identity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Zen identity was the band that I got into, ever that I played with for a few years, when I moved to Duluth.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I guess, probably 80's, 88 to 93 kind of left that band and started low.
[SPEAKER_00]: He why you is isn't Utah, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm a punk, yeah, it's the, yeah, be why you use the Mormon University out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Stefan from the descendants and all, when he's been on the podcast, he grew up in Utah and Salt Lake Sidney, and he said there was like a real adversarial relationship with some of the locals in punk.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: counterculture in Utah was very severe.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know, it's kind of the only way I can describe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, there was no middle ground.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was no like, we just like the hangout and drink beers.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you were not in, or if you were at all interested in something alternative or kind of counterculture and not kind of the normal cookie cutter, this is up until the late 80s.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I think things kind of blurred a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of over the last few decades for sure, but at the time when I was out there, if you were interested in anything alternative.
[SPEAKER_02]: by the time you found that culture, you'd be deeply in a counter thing and in some ways like it was sort of baked in that you had to be almost anti-morm in all anti-establishment anti-your parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just it wasn't there was no there was nothing casual about counter culture in Utah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was if you were in that scene you were
[SPEAKER_02]: you were deeply in it, which had its pluses and minuses, there's some pretty cool people, and some really extreme people that I met, that really were influential.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a really great radio station there, that KRCL, that would...
[SPEAKER_02]: like late nights play some of the most hard, you know, first time I heard like fetus and coil and birthday party and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're on this station and because they would just go deep and there were dance clubs there, you know, even though it was the 80s it was sort of like DJ disco stuff and there was
[SPEAKER_02]: it was heavy into, you know, like early, you know, pre, you know, pre-rave, you know, kind of dance music and different things like that and, you know, and also drugs, like like if you weren't just, you know, just, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, you weren't just having a few beers or smoking a little weed, it was just like immediately hard stuff, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was really kind of a shock to go there and be just like, I just want to hear some, I just want to hang out.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is a pumpkin music and just immediately being in touch with these really intense, like hard people and kind of, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, just contrary and, you know, almost like satanic, even, you know, like really cult, like satanic culty shit, it's like level up, all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, yeah, the punk, yeah, the scene, I don't know, just if you were in there, it was just, it was, I mean, you wouldn't think it, you know, as someone way on the outside, but yeah, I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: The underground scene in Utah was hard and some really fucking intense people and some pretty fringy outshit going on, you know, that you get little blips of everyone so while, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was my experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Made a lot of
[SPEAKER_02]: really extreme friends and kind of exposed to, you know, for a farm kid, you know, it only, who don't we, you know, gathered, you know, a dozen records and and magazine articles.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a really immersive and and cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was something I mean, there was an alternative theater.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was just like late 80s.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was an alternative theater there where you
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll bloom out the air where you could go see all kinds of borderline, fucked up movies and stuff, and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely scared me a little bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was definitely like trouble that I could have easily fallen into.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I'd stuck around a little longer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, as we are going back there, you know, what later on when it started low,
[SPEAKER_02]: and would go through there on tour, at least through the 90s.
[SPEAKER_02]: The scene where he was very small, but very intense, very underground.
[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of squat shows, squat shows.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just again, you just would run into some of the harshest, most devoted countercultural people you'd ever meet in Utah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's funny to say that because everyone I've talked to who's part of that scene, especially like energy say a change into the 90s, but like that like 80s scene is talks about the drugs, talks about how quickly it was to fall into hard drugs from like you're saying just weed, it eventually got real, real nuts real quick.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, again, it was coming, you know, I was coming from, you know, pretty straight-laced farm kid who would never even drink before, you know, so it was, it was, you know, it was both a shock that that way, but then, you know, again, coming back, going back there later on, it was a reiterated that for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I often, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: think that reflects the music that came out of there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like you think like mask her guys or maim for life or local desquad LDS or the stench.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it's all like real in your face.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like the romones or you know it's it's like a very confrontational like you're saying like I guess if the
[SPEAKER_00]: If there's something to rebel against you might as well rebel twice as hard if you're going to get Yeah, ostracized anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and and
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, for better or worse, the culture of Mormonism is pretty, can be viewed as pretty restrictive and, you know, if you're someone who's, who's a little bit different, you know, you're, you're, by the time you're, by the time you're a teenager, you've really, but it heads with that, you know, whether it's your parents or, or church or just just being surrounded by this, this kind of, lot more obviously homogenized than also, you know, sort of,
[SPEAKER_02]: sort of anxiety inducing stringency to it and so yeah yeah there's there's something about that like like I said when you if you're rebelling against that you're really got a lot more of a stack of things to to to screen about you know than than just you know my dad's jerk you know is it's
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I don't like Fleetwood Mac, you know, it's like, no, I'll do it here, you're out for blood if you know it because it's because there's so much a stake if you if you step out of that and decide like I am not part of this it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a it's a huge full soul, full body detachment and then rebellion, you know, and and
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a lot of pent-up frustration over over being held down or looked at weirdly, you know, we're marginalized because, you know, you had some, you know, it started, probably started out as just a hint of something like you were into this or, you know, you were gay or something like that and just just the culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, it just makes that contrast a little harsher, so there's, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not, you know, I'm not here to sit necessarily just the church or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just an inevitably, it's just the inevitability or it's just what happens when something is that sort of concentrated in sort of a whole community used based on, you know, a particular religion sort of being.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you got to realize like Mormonism was started as a very counter-cultural thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean, these people were kicked out of America, you know, you know, they had to go, they had to stop like multiple places and try to build a civilization and then get kicked out again by
[SPEAKER_02]: people who didn't like them so by the time, you know, by the time the Mormons got out to Utah in the 1800s and they're like, oh, I, well, this is, this is our thing, man.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's, let's, you know, let's do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's just, it's unique, you know, to America.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, there's just, there's no other place where just, there's this whole region where,
[SPEAKER_02]: most of the culture comes out of this very separate culture that kind of had to go there to survive eventually.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe as a reaction to that, the culture then becomes its own restrictive kind of oppressive thing that is, you know, unfortunately,
[SPEAKER_02]: a little more, you know, a little more intolerant, unfortunately, of something that maybe you initially would have just been, you know, I don't know, I mean anything counter I suppose at one point would have felt like a threat so the culture sort of clamps down even harder, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started doing TikToks for this show to promote the episodes and so I fell into looking at TikTok.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what brought me into this in my, the algorithm, but also I was brought into sort of Mormon, BYU, TikToks about just people around interviewing each other about different subjects.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was, it was, it was eye-opening to me that like you're saying, it is culturally so different than necessarily a lot of places around it because of the, the religion tied to the state.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, and it's, and BYU is in its, is its own interesting twist because you're, you're pulling, from, you're pulling in Mormons from all over the world essentially and there's, there's a little bit of like being drawn to there because they want to be part of that culture and they, they're, they're drawn to, to this, you know, finally I'm in a place where,
[SPEAKER_02]: everybody has the same beliefs and it's just in some for better words, you know, you end up in a sort of amplifies its own homogenized culture, because everybody's sort of a little bit excited to be there and kind of everybody be on the same page, you know, and, you know, so yeah, it's a
[SPEAKER_02]: because of that then like weird weird phenomena happen and you know kind of their own thing that that only gets you know gets they just kind of amplify each other in this and this weird.
[SPEAKER_00]: To me it's interesting because on this like I was shocked how many of these kids college level kids hadn't seen a rated our movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: and that like and it very proudly say that and here you are me and me often are talking about skinny puppies so clearly you're engaged with the type of this culture that it's is like when you just mind blowing for a lot of these kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah very very countered about and you know and I'm not I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know most most people are okay with
[SPEAKER_02]: normal shit, you know, and that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, again, you know, for me for some reason, I just, I got there and I could, I could see it, you know, even though I came from, from that.
[SPEAKER_02]: thing, you know, that kind of upbringing and sort of recognize that, okay, I'm going to this place where I'm going to finally be surrounded with people that are the same as me instead of being the only Mormon kid in my class, you know, I'll be like, always worry, I don't know, I just, I think, yeah, I kind of, I showed up already,
[SPEAKER_02]: feeling a little bit of an outsider because I felt like I was being a little bit push to go there and I wasn't into it but also by then I was already into, you know, I was already into alternative music and friendship and, you know, for me I was more excited to be like, wow, college, I'm going to be, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to find the other people who are into this, you know, there's got to be some people who are into it and, and, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: much like everywhere else in the in the culture in the 80s, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was underground and I'm very much a minority.
[SPEAKER_02]: And once you, you know, he just said to go walk around campus and look like I've, who's got the weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got the weird here, but I'm going to be friends with him, you know, who, who in the dorm.
[SPEAKER_02]: is blasting some punk music, okay, I'm going to become friends with them, and because of that, that culture bonds together really quickly, you know, they too were probably excited to meet someone who was into something different, and we're probably feeling a little weird amongst the homogenized vibe there, so people really flock to each other, and it was exciting,
[SPEAKER_02]: I was able to be in a, I was in a band there made made friends that I still have, uh, yeah, actually, yeah, good handful of people that I met there and played music with or still, still friends a month.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was that band called?
[SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it was in a band called 3D Cycle Paisley.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you guys record?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think there's any.
[SPEAKER_02]: evidence of it anywhere, you know, video or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But, uh, yeah, I don't know, we played, we played a party and there was a, there was a club in town that would do music a few nights a week.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think we, as weird as we were, we, we, we had a plan there a couple times, but, um, yeah, um, one of, one of the guys in the
[SPEAKER_02]: who was a singer and, I don't know, we were into the Smiths and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, DePeshMode was kind of this also part of the alternative vibe there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, there was a while there in the late 80s where DePeshMode would come on tour in the United States and they play New York, San Francisco, Chicago, and Salt Lake.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because there was this big,
[SPEAKER_02]: big, kind of, new wave, kind of post-posteromantic.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there was a strain of that in the punk culture, in the 80s, in Utah for some reason, that the sort of preppy, like I said, the Smiths and Depesh mode, kind of this kind of post-new-avvy, preppy kind of vibe, and yeah, Riley,
[SPEAKER_02]: Riley headed up in the 90s, running a space in Salt Lake, called the Moroccan, and that was a place, I think a lot of, that was like before, that was the place to play before, whether it could be court now in Salt Lake is this place called Kill Be Quart that's been,
[SPEAKER_02]: been around for quite a while.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were basically just an alley garage squat.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, by squat, I mean, just a space that was sort of not, it was not really registered as a establishment or a bar or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just a space where they'd kind of have.
[SPEAKER_02]: shows and this is kind of just small enough that the city didn't crack down too much but then it won't solve all the things that get big enough that city would crack down.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you guys don't have license to do this and you know, so yeah, it was a place called Morocco, the Moroccan that was sort of, yeah, late 80s, early 90s was kind of well 90s before Kilbe Court, that was the place to do stuff and now now he lives in LA and
[SPEAKER_02]: filmed a lot of like Billy Eilish's, he does a lot of film and live video production for first stuff like Bonnaroo and he did the Billy Eilish movie, I don't know, I do do those in a band with who just kind of kept going very creative person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I feel like that's the thing about this, you know, punk being the umbrella term for it is like it just brings a lot of people in to a culture where you can kind of just make your own rules and do your own thing and you can kind of see, you know, where all these different people wound up like directors producers, writers, photographers, not necessarily making this kind of music, but at the same time, like they came out of this thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, creative people, you know, it's it's it's on the one hand being creative and an original, but then also like someone who gets shit done and you know punk punk and sort of the underground has these opportunities, you know, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: do here's how you put something together here's how you do this thing and you know it's it's inevitable that that it expands and if you know the person's good at it they're gonna they're gonna end up being people who make all the movies and and make music that eventually you know becomes it comes more widespread you know different things like that or you know or run magazines or media companies
[SPEAKER_00]: So then you go move back to Duluth after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Duluth is also an interesting place for music stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like as you say, it's pretty close to Minneapolis.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of like, I guess a replacement first out of town gig was in Duluth.
[SPEAKER_00]: And who's her dude played and babes in Toiland would play.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it feels like there was a little bit of that kind of cross-pollination.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there was.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, even being, like I said, being even, you know, four, five hours away up in the north, you know, it was, it was sort of a community pride about it, you know, I think, well, my senior year in high school, I went, I would go to the midgey to take a few classes and one of them was, was, uh, radio broadcasting and I got to be on the,
[SPEAKER_02]: I got to DJ once every two weeks on the on the on the college station there and that was where you know that was another exposure to stuff and that was where I first heard the replacements kind of right around them that Tim came out I think him.
[SPEAKER_02]: saw them on Saturday night live, stuff like that, that was exciting, and prints again.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was sort of a Minneapolis pride, so to speak, you know, being from Minnesota.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it was still off the beaten path, you know, and North, you know, there's a little bit of an underdog vibe here, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: seems like to kind of feel like what you're doing is legitimate and there's definitely like a of feeling like, well, okay, if you're really going to do something, you need to go down to many apples and do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's a lot of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know, it was a good place to, you know, like I said, when I moved back, I was in this band's identity for a few years, and that was fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'd
[SPEAKER_02]: We would go and play Minneapolis every once in a while and try to gain some fans there and try to break into this really thriving scene and, you know, meet people and kind of a bit of networking going on there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, by the time we started low, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, Minneapolis was still kind of a
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of the the bigger scene but I don't know with low with low because we kind of we kind of skipped that and you know when we first started I set out some demos and we
[SPEAKER_02]: We went to New York and recorded our first record and because the sky creamer with someone that I said demos to and invited us out and that was kind of how a low started.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in some ways we kind of bypassed the, all right, gotta go down on Minneapolis and try to get some attention there, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: But because of that, I think I think it ended up, I don't know, we ended up kind of having a lot more,
[SPEAKER_02]: longevity with the local scene, you know, we were already kind of touring out of state before we necessarily played in Minneapolis and so by the time we started to play Minneapolis there was a little bit more legitimacy there.
[SPEAKER_02]: We weren't necessarily trying to convince people there as much as just
[SPEAKER_00]: people who had heard about us would start showing up, you know, because I guess you get John Nichols to join like, like Zen identity, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, tour in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the end the band was kind of fragmenting and, you know, we were trying to move to Minneapolis and sort of trying to try to take that next step and, yeah, John was in the band for brief period played a couple of
[SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, he and I were getting to be pretty good friends and talking about music and talking about things that we're into and sort of also in a point, kind of realizing that Zenn identity was sort of was sort of falling apart and that we weren't going to be able to really work with these guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, he and I started talking about things that we liked, a lot of common ground with minimalism,
[SPEAKER_02]: the cure, Brian Eno, Lamont Young, Glen Broncos, you know, just, just, yeah, you know, even like sonic youth, kind of a little bit more of an out, you know, I think by then I'd heard Yola Tango, Galaxy 500,
[SPEAKER_02]: certainly was an influence and you know that's why why I said our debt first demos to to Cramer but yeah yeah John and I resonated on some stuff and and I had kind of had this idea brewing
[SPEAKER_02]: And meanwhile, actually there was a, you know, 91, 92, there was kind of a really great scene that started happening in Duluth, kind of not unlike any kind of more medium or small city, like by then like, you know, Nirvana, Bro, I'll turn to music was sort of like a lot more kind of coming into the mainstream and like, you know, younger people were.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, kids at that point were kind of a lot looking for more of an eclectic thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was actually pretty great scene in Duluth.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we were like, hey, let's put this together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I can convince Nim to play the drums.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we wrote like four songs and gone on a bill, opening for some friends at this all-ages, space and town that was doing stuff on the weekends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was sort of a built-in crowd there already because, like I said, people were, you know, there's just, yeah, there was sort of a cultural explosion of young people going like, I want to go to a show, you know, I'm going to go see a band, I want to be in a band.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, 50, 60 people and, you know, we tend to have a pay attention, but, uh, but I don't know, we, we knew, we knew we were onto something and, and just because we liked, we liked what we were doing and, and, and it, it felt like it was pushing an edge with people, you know, even, even though people were into, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: alternate music was sort of exploding like the whole idea of playing so slow and so quiet still felt pretty contrary and and challenging so that I don't know there was something about that that was appealing you know so yeah that was that was kind of how that started and yeah John and I
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of we're just, I don't know, long nights driving back from Minneapolis band rehearsals, sort of a concept of low camp together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because the band sounds so unique.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was listening to, I think it's called Lorenzo's Traktor today, like I saw earlier, these John's Band, and then this Miracles tape, which I found on Discogs that John played on, which is like really,
[SPEAKER_00]: already stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's interesting, like listening to your guitar playing in Zen identity and hearing the stuff he was doing around them and how it kind of comes together and low, low's kind of ultimately what kind of comes out of the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, we were, yeah, John was definitely coming from kind of golf and more ethereal music,
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my bloody valentine and some of the similarly, you know, what would become, you know, known as shoogays and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there was sort of a resonance there.
[SPEAKER_02]: John was, you know, John was bringing in the briny, you know, you know, which I knew about, but I hadn't had really been immersed in and sort of sort of seeing that further outside.
[SPEAKER_02]: element of minimalism, you know, especially, um, so yeah, yeah, there was definitely a Alaranzo's tractor was something him and his high school buddy had been doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, more, you know, a little bit of electronic kind of beads and definitely
[SPEAKER_02]: kind of, uh, sound weak, you know, early, early, four track, post-goth kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I've, you mentioned kind of briefly just sending tapes to New York, is that like that live tape that you guys kind of had like the unofficial demo, just as low on the cover, maybe probably multiple covers I imagine, but yeah, yeah, that one, there's a demo, I think,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think on that box set that we put out, I think we included maybe two of the demos.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we did just, yeah, four track, the other guy from Lorenzo's track here.
[SPEAKER_02]: record you know we did our first show and we're like wow we should we should demo this was cool let's demo these songs and you know I might send I'll send them out send out some recordings to some people see if there's some interest you know and so yeah we did they cut and lullaby and maybe one other song that we had and and
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those are the demos.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was just basically like, you know, set up and play the song with the mics up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really didn't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really didn't know much about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're doing good.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it works, you know, Kramer, Kramer put it all, you know, according to Kramer, put the tape on and listen for, listen for 10 seconds.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was like, all right, cool sent us sent us a letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: So is that how the Vernon yard recordings thing came about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's like a Sony sublabel, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were a Warner Brothers.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if they were a part of Sony at that point, but yeah, they were no version.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were a sub, they were a sub of version.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, this A&R guy,
[SPEAKER_02]: This British ADR guy who would work for Virgin, I think it's some point, you know, because of what was going on in underground, where it was like, okay, you.
[SPEAKER_02]: you're going to have a little botic label, they've called botic labels back then, it was like someone who worked for the company would have their own little branch and they would go around and try to find small bands and you know, with a little budget, and yeah, we originally, when Kramer reached out to us on the demo, I think originally he had thought, like, okay, maybe all, you know, these kids can come out.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'll make that, I'll charge them for studio time, you know, how much money do you have?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's the risk, like, but like, I don't know how to, like, how much money, and I'm like, I've got 400 dollars, like, okay, come on out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: It worked out perfectly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just enough to work for a day, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we went out and yeah, when we got there, I think the original thought was we were being enticed there because Kramer had shimmy disk and he kind of said like, I don't come on to record, maybe we can do a single or something and so we went out there and in one day essentially
[SPEAKER_02]: recorded four or five songs and you know by the time you know by the time we started doing vocal overdubbs he became very interested and and and clearly it was kind of excited about us and and and thought okay well this is cool I've got some people I know who might be interested in this what why don't you guys go home and rest more songs and come back in a in a month and let's finish a record
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we left, you know, so we went home.
[SPEAKER_02]: wrote a few more songs and meanwhile he pitched what it recorded to someone he knew at Vernon Yard and they were interested in us and so yeah by the time we went back to do the rest of the record there was already these people from Vernon Yard who were interested in us and once it was done then they approached us about a contract and it was very
[SPEAKER_02]: very small who's just enough money to pay creamer and more conveniently.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: for basically two days where the work he got our whole, I think that's, which wasn't very much to me who's, but nonetheless, yeah, worked out.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, very quickly, I mean, we started the band in like a March, March, April, played our first show in May,
[SPEAKER_02]: recorded, you know, I think we finished, you know, we recorded our record with Kramer in August and September, and then it came out January or top of February the next, the very next year.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, started the band and had a record out within nine months, I think it's so interesting when a band does that, like goes from demo to, I guess, like, obviously a boutique, but
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, they got us exposure, got us reviewed in magazines, and distribution, which at the time was half the battle.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you could get into stores, people would at least see it and take it seriously.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, probably be a couple of record store clerks who would play it over the PA.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's, you know, there were a lot of stories of that where, you know, the clerk would catch wind of it and play it over the thing and someone would come up like who's this, you know, and that's, that's how we'd sold a lot of our first few records and and yeah, getting getting in magazines, you know, the label had pull enough to where if they sent a record out, you know, the writers would at least take a listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, my brother and I got into, or probably first heard you on the CMJ CD.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a, that was a big break, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, those were a big deal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: When CDs were like $22 a pop to get a compilation and be able to sample.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, much stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, immense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I had a couple of those early ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: there are cassettes originally.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I guess it would have actually been for college music programmers.
[SPEAKER_00]: I imagine at one point legitimately you've got just 13-year-old and 12-year-old kids in Toronto, Canada.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you have any issues personally about signing with a major label, kind of, or did you feel that sort of same sort of baggage that a lot of people and coming out of punk out with that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, kind of around, you know, 93 the argument of indie major wasn't quite happening yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that was the time where bands got signed and then within a year and a half or but it was like holy shit, that was a huge mistake and, you know, like, oh, and then you know, people started telling each other like, oh, don't say how the major you're going to get whatever of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, and then, you know, very quickly by ninety five, ninety six, everybody was, you know, it was, it was, it was very much a tribal thing about, like, where were you indie or you're on a major, you know, so, so we kind of, you know, partially out of ignorance, and then partially just timing, you know, we, that, that element wasn't quite there.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember, like,
[SPEAKER_02]: there were a few people that we met early on who kind of gave us a little bit of warning like are you sure, you know, you can, you know, like we met Azalea Snail at the first time we played New York.
[SPEAKER_02]: We played an editing factory when we went out to do that first initial recording with Kramer.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we met, you know, there were 10 people in the audience and a couple of people came up to us and talked to us and became friends and stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And one of them was Azalea Snail and she's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: be careful, you know, that's that's really a major and like, oh, what's going to happen, you know, it's you know, and also, I mean, not to say that the, I don't know, the contract was still, you know, 20 locations or whatever, but the amount of money they were giving us, it really did feel it felt like an indie, you know, and, you know, not, not to like, not to like,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, Kramer is a good friend and he really helped us out and really really we owe so much to him, but he he was pretty encouraging of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, oh, and all this is going to be great.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're going to take care of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the and our people that worked there were we're pretty savvy is this this person Liz Brooks who who is they in our person there.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was very you know, she was very much part of the underground and very very kind of.
[SPEAKER_02]: part of that and, you know, the other band, there were other bands already on Fernand Yard that were small and indeed, we thought, oh, maybe this is, maybe this is a safe place and, and, you know, of course, you know, to this day we're still fighting to get our master's back from, from, from us, you know, whoever owns all that now, I think it's Warner Brothers
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and that's been definitely a regrettable thing, like those first three or so records that we did with them are kind of in their control and we don't really don't have much say about who comes along and license the license is them we don't make any money as they think literally no residuals off of it even though they're still in circulation from time to time and.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I mean, it was kind of as pretty too late by the time we were in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I said, it didn't feel like we were signing to a major, you know, at that point, still the, you know, the language around that was still still just beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people weren't really talking about that, like I said, until probably the mid-90s.
[SPEAKER_02]: And after a few people have been really, you know, classically screwed over.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it just felt like the right thing and they're gonna pay for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna be able to, you know, they're gonna put the records out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this seems cool and, but yeah, I mean pretty quickly
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we could feel there were definitely some hindrances.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we would get some pushbacks sometimes on stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they'd complain about the mastering about something.
[SPEAKER_02]: They would, you know, we would want to do an EP.
[SPEAKER_02]: There'd be, you know, there'd be some resistance there and different things.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that we're kind of, you know, definitely definitely the kind of thing that we didn't run into ever again, you know, and then, yeah, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: when once we met Cranky and sort of, you know, like I said by the mid 90s, it was pretty clear that like, okay, this labels problematic, you know, they give us money, but we're obviously getting, you know, we're having to pay this back with the fraction of the price of what people are paying for records.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was,
[SPEAKER_02]: pretty hard not to become pretty well versed in how shitty the business was by by that time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we were looking we were definitely looking to get out and when when the opportunity came to to move on and work with Cranky came along we we definitely pushed for that and and got out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know we met we worked with some great people it's kind of David
[SPEAKER_02]: Eventually, you know, after Liz left, was our in our guy and he did a great job and did the best he could to take care of us at some point we started
[SPEAKER_02]: We, you know, through the version thing and kind of adjacent to we sort of started working with rough trade a little bit and this kind of Jeff Travis over there who was cool and and you know, still under the window or still under the umbrella of a larger company.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And despite all that, the records came out and fans found us and we got, you know, weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: taken seriously just enough to kind of at least get our foot in the door and get people to listen to some things that maybe otherwise it wouldn't know if we're struggling is a you know starting out on something smaller so it was cool and again you know the the royalties are nothing you know the percentages on those contracts are pretty criminal also so
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's, that's, you know, that's the trade off, so to speak, luckily we didn't get completely screwed over.
[SPEAKER_02]: We were able to do the records we wanted to do and, you know, luckily we were able to move on to indie labels from that on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously you're on this major label, but then it's almost like the career starts when to get off into a second act in a way or like there's like a sort of a whole other dimension that even even during the major label period, like you're doing records on independent labels at the same time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, they allowed us to do beyond compilations and do little things here and there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we were able to still participate and sort of the scene that we wanted that had embraced us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, it worked out cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: hanging out long enough, you know, relief, it was, it's probably the key to everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything was very gradual.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every record there was a little, it seemed to do a little better and a little bit more, you know, a few more people would come to shows and, and, and we toured a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we were really, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, records were cool and we would get, you know, it was nice to be able to put them out, but the meeting potatoes of what we did and sort of the way we connected it in and the money that we made, you know, most of it was, most of those playing shows.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and you worked with Subpop, I guess, for the first time in 1997.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: How, how, really?
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the first final record I had by you guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, wow, it seems, I don't know, it felt like we were with Cranky longer for longer than that, you know, maybe it's because that we still get, we had, we still get checks from Cranky.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we still get really pretty decent checks and it's because they're a great level, they're very frugal and, and, uh, Joel is really good about,
[SPEAKER_02]: keeping the records out there without, without, you know, spending too much money, and so we, and he gives us a really amazing percentage.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we, we still get checks from cranky there, sometimes, sometimes bigger than the worst thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's up up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some pop obviously was sort of on the radar ever since we were even before the band.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember hearing those records and being into that scene and then sort of all along what having some favorite bands on some pop red red meat, you know, different things like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know, we met John Pahneman,
[SPEAKER_02]: at some point in the 90s and he was really nice to us and complimentary and, yeah, I mean, for better words, you know, again, we love cranky and we're still really, really good friends with those guys and stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by all means, we probably would have been fine continuing on that level label, but I don't know, some pop scenes seem like a good thing and as much as they're
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they are under the umbrella of Warner Bros.
[SPEAKER_02]: I believe, still it's a pretty unique, it's pretty unique and independent situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, they obviously can do whatever they want.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've always let us do whatever we want.
[SPEAKER_02]: They hate for everything that needs to be paid for.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think as best as they can, they give us as respectable of a percentage as you could hope for on a label that's, again, under the umbrella of something bigger.
[SPEAKER_02]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: no disrespect to them as a band or anything because I love them, but you might be the only person I've ever heard say I love a lot of bands on subpop and then followed up with red red meat as the first band on your list.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love them though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a test of how to love them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those.
[SPEAKER_02]: We met those guys early in Chicago.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we met those guys early on when we first started playing in Chicago and they kind of they kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like a gang.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like a Chicago fuckin' serious, like get in fist fights gang and they somehow, for some reason, took us under their wing and kind of would take care of us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we love the records.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I don't know how many times but money gets paid.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's probably one of the top five records that we've probably listened to over and over and over and over again throughout my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Another band I associate you with because of the split and also I think because I saw you guys here at least Palis one time is Ida.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and when did the relationship with Ida first start that was pretty early on The gut one of the women in tsunami When they what was their label symbol machine no is double machines.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we met them and we played with them at a festival in DC, kind of early on, a record store put on and those guys came up to us and handed me a CD and said here, I think you would, I think you would get along with these folks and I think sometimes shortly after that we did meet them and and did a lot of touring with with I know and yeah, they're they're good friends of ours and we had a lot of really.
[SPEAKER_02]: pretty precious times with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's more than just a band that we played with.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're family, you know, we all started having kids around the same time and would take care of each of those kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the other one was on stage, stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I did some recording with them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I know we're very fast friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, I mean, it wasn't
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we also happen to be, you know, sort of all playing, sort of more delicate music and, you know, harmonies and whatnot.
[SPEAKER_02]: But definitely, definitely some of our dearest friends and people we spent a lot of time on the road with.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to ask you was playing soft and and slow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that a conscious reaction at all to hardcore?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, somewhat, I mean, you know, like I said, kind of back in 92, 93, there was sort of this explosion of alternative music and a lot of it was really based around grunge and, you know, and kind of post their vana and this sort of louder, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: little bit still kind of, I don't want to say macho, but just sort of a little bit like, you know, you know, kind of fueled by, yeah, fueled by a little bit of the physicality and the volume of hardcore.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: We weren't necessarily like, fuck that shit.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to do something else or, you know, it wasn't so much that we didn't like that and we wanted to be countered
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, I mean, kind of been talking about this minimal music and sort of the tension of, you know, I think by then I had seen a show, like beat happening, which is really skeletal and kind of disturbing and how minimal it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was something about that that kind of was informing like, wow, okay, I know there's this music going on and everybody's really into it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there's something kind of a next level kind of contrary, a little bit and almost kind of borderline uncomfortable about someone who's doing something minimal and then the idea of playing soft kind of even was like, well, man, people are going to be this would be so uncomfortable for people who came to the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: wanted to get their brains blown out, you know, and so yeah, it was, it was there kind of at the formation of the band, but then as we would do shows and sort of realize that wait a minute, this is kind of our contrary superpower here, because we would get
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what people would react to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the minimalism, the sort of ethereal, the harmonities and, you know, whatever was it was just us kind of doing our us, but the quietness and the slowness and sort of really quickly realizing how that would divide people, like some people would just, you know, we would get.
[SPEAKER_02]: really adverse reactions from some people, you know, and something about that was, was a peeling and kind of fueled us a little bit and gave us this sense of like, oh no, we're, we're out here making something that's challenging and, and, and, and, and, and.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in many, yeah, those first few years with Lowes, the quietness was sort of the blade that we would wield.
[SPEAKER_02]: And would get, like I said, we would get sometimes just to really hostile reactions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to me, I don't know, for some reason, there was something about that that really appealed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was kind of codifying,
[SPEAKER_02]: and strengthening to the unit in some ways because like here we are okay let's get up to let's see let's see what kind of let's let's see who we can you know part of part of doing the show what's like okay let's let's see what let's see what kind of adverse reaction we can get you know and you know it it almost be
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I mean, I'm proud of the fact that we've had cups, you know, we've had a shower of plastic cups, you know, thrown at us and I'm proud of the fact that there've been people on the edge of the stage, fucking burating us, you know, and I'm proud of being called, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, call them, you know, it's called names, you know, while I'm playing music, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's something about that that just to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, kind of early on the band, you know, the way the way we were doing it, I don't know there was something that unified us about that and and sort of was more of, I don't know to me it was sort of a testament that we were on to something if it, if it was bothering a few people, you know, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that, where it's like, it's almost like an aggressive softness or an aggressive.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we, you know, we can kind of evolve and move getting out of that over the years, but yeah, it was first few years, first few records and especially the shows that was really foundational for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, Jessica, I have to fly to Montreal today.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, well, you know, you're going to be right next door to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I won't keep you any more.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anytime you want to come back on and talk about the aggressive softness or or anything, you're always welcome here, Alan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, thank you.