[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lorehounds podcast, we're the Lorehounds, your guides to psychohistory.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm Marilyn, and this is our season three wrap up for foundation on AppleTV Plus.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to get in contact with us send an email to empire at the Lorehounds.com or head to our discord server from the link tree in the show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: and if you like what you've heard and you want to support us directly and get add free and bonus content check the same link tree for our patreon and supercast subscription options.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know we've got plenty of good bonus content and we're going to have a really great spooktober.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a, I know we're doing a fronken steam.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'll brook saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Walk to switch.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's actually not on the lower hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I said that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's on the wall, so it does speed.
[SPEAKER_00]: But we are doing, it looks like based on the poll results.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing the weapons trilogy, which is a series of movies with, I think it's the name Zach Crager.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's a bunch of hard movies.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to do them together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia has curated a nice list.
[SPEAKER_00]: So stick around the plenty of spooked,
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Alicia Sweep spot, so it really should be wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, she's a big fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: Big fan.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, always be a second breakfast and all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can get a bunch of alien bonus content if you're watching alien earth, which I would recommend you do because if you like foundation, I think you'll like alien earth unless you're Marilyn and don't like the violence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, but you can still be Marilyn and tuning for the Peter Pan episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't gotten a chance to listen to it yet because I didn't just the season to catch up for the season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to, that's what I'm, the ones I want to go back almost to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm looking forward to hearing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will look forward to hearing your thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see if any of the thoughts we have, we've got thoughts.
[SPEAKER_00]: We promised, we do a season wrap up and apologies for the delay, plenty of home stuff happening on both of our ends, mostly my end, I would say, that it's causing delays, but we're here to wrap up the foundation season and both of course be back for season four and for plenty of other shows in between.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, Marilyn, you have hopefully put together all your thoughts, and I kind of used your thoughts to structure the outline.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like this drags you very organized.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I did a very useful thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I put in all of the, as I promised, I put all the emails that we got within those sections, except, except if they were mean, if they were mean, I didn't put them in.
[SPEAKER_00]: But most of them were very nice, so I put all those in.
[SPEAKER_02]: and uh... yeah so i want to ask you your overall thoughts of a season marlin sure thing i started the third season with great enthusiasm and overall i feel that that was entirely justified
[SPEAKER_02]: It, for the first time, I felt a real comfort with the so-called letly-adapted method of moving a story from the book to the screen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And part of that may just be the simplicity, shall we say, of, as a mom's writing style.
[SPEAKER_02]: But whatever it was, I mean, to pick the points that they picked and to develop on the way they developed.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just really stunning the character arcs for each of the three Clions,
[SPEAKER_02]: which I always laughed when my dictation but said crayons and said the crayons.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those character are probably some of the best writing I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if we have to lose any of them in the next season, other than darkness, I will be very sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Though I expect I'm destined to be disappointed in that last bit, I'm sure we're gonna see more of darkness.
[SPEAKER_00]: I will also say the the lead pace Instagram account.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if Lee Pace himself runs it, but it posted, hey, we'll be back for season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know if he definitely will be, but I think he will, I think he will be back in some form.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what form, but I'm sure he will be back to do some kind of things he's in for.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well related to that, I don't know if this qualifies as a spoiler or not,
[SPEAKER_02]: people can say they have confirmed information that Lee Pace is voicing the mysterious robot that we saw at the very end of the last episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: The season.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe that's how he's returning.
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love morally Pace in whatever form they can give him to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would too, but gosh, I really like it when he's embodied.
[SPEAKER_02]: For all the things he's using, don't we all?
[SPEAKER_02]: The humanizing of Demorselle, which I think was brought about by her eating the so-called Poison Apple of the Prime Radiant, really transformed her from a Martinette who snaps the Nexifer Clions to a Confused Positron, and her former prime motive served Clions is what leads to herself destruction, in the end, and that
[SPEAKER_02]: and how can you have a tragic arc for it robot?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is what we had and it was just incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really do like that Harry triggered this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that this wasn't just something that was inevitably going to happen to Demosela and perhaps you could have actually held on a little bit longer with Empire.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe not because they had expected Empire to decay more quickly the foundation that expected them.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the fact that that
[SPEAKER_00]: Harry, Volt Harry, have the foresight to go, this is a robot, this is my biggest nemesis on this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to take her down in some way and have that foresight for 150 years to pass before the logic bomb goes off, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The paradox bomb?
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that that's a brilliant way to do that and I was super happy with how they did it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me too, me too, it really was.
[SPEAKER_02]: in such a way that we were saying, well, why would he give it to her?
[SPEAKER_02]: Doesn't that help her out?
[SPEAKER_02]: And so forth and it was in the end, it was just the opposite.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Harris, he says, I'm going to make an imperial palace that is so toxic.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't even know.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't want to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: The way they handled the meal story was clever in that it kept even book readers in the dark, or at least confused.
[SPEAKER_02]: though I think a few of us more than if it was probably figured out that they're main trick early on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a lot of interesting discussion about that throughout.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also think that a lot of us feel that this may not be the absolute last last word on who the meal actually is.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's another fake out completely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I could see them executing it well even if beta is
[SPEAKER_00]: but I too think that it's a double fake out.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope so for a reason's all going to in greater detail below.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love seeing how the treatment of the traders' guild and edling myths and so many of the names that are familiar to us from the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how they developed the second foundation in this adaptation of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I particularly love the character of Prem Palver, which is lovely because he was definitely a beloved character from the original trilogy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I can't wait to see more of him next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, such a different origin as far as we know of this preem, but I really love this character.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's very earnest and, and I don't know, I just trust him.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I, I, you know, need to.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I had to leave my laptop in a cafe, I'd ask him to watch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: There you go, there you go.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I particularly love about this,
[SPEAKER_02]: season and the series as a whole is if I've been told 50 years ago while reading the foundation series for the very first time what I would be doing today tonight.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would seem astonishing to me kind of like waking up every 150 years or so to a new world and news circumstances but it it really feels terrific.
[SPEAKER_02]: Except I know feel pretty much as I
[SPEAKER_02]: Only this time, I'm afraid it's even more for real.
[SPEAKER_02]: What will a post-Gloria Foundation be like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, it does sound like, and I think we're discusses later, does sound like they are still going to follow the main beats of what he had planned, but of course it's different to have a different showrunner and to have a different person in the writing room.
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll say, I mean, it could be really great.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could not be, but we were no until we say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it almost has to be different.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's one thing to follow plot points, but you know, you're producer, your director, your costume designer, your script writers, all of that completely changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in a sense, it was always going to change, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: This was the end of the main imperial era, at least, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There is one Clion left.
[SPEAKER_00]: He is an old and dying Clion.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the sunset of empire, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: This is this is end of an era.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't, I doubt that Dusk is going to last more than a couple episodes next season to be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I get some of what kind of vibes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're probably right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, for me, I really, really like the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought I think season two is still my favorite, but season three was really great and it tracked the books more closely than I expected.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was the biggest surprise for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just how closely it tracked the books at most points.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because before the show did not track the books almost at all like just no very broad strokes maths the books But here we had really direct adaptations of characters like beta and toron Like you said cream is pretty close in personality at least of inber of of basically all of these characters
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a few changes, like Han Pracher, pretty different.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, some other personality, but a different circumstances.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I forgot how to get a little bit all.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gell was not even in foundation after the first.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: So at the end of the day, you really can't expect all these characters to be exactly the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, overall, I was just so impressed on how well they both that in after diverging from the book so much because how do you bring it back to that grounding?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like it was almost that David Goyer said, hey, I have to get through two seasons of backstory and then I'm going to tell you the story that I wanted to tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is, as I have some comments down below much further, he does say in an interview that this, the meal novel act as he called it, was his favorite part of the entire trilogy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a great part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the mule is such an interesting character and it really, the whole idea of the Mule turns psychohistory on its head, which is what makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Goyer sets up this whole system.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, this is how it's going to go and you feel safe with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then all of a sudden, it's not safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's brilliant writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is brilliant.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because, as I'm of himself, had written this, this is more through written than pretty much all of the other series.
[SPEAKER_02]: It made it that much easier to, you know, be interpreted to lift up and adapt it as a whole.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot more like dialogue and and really like a lot less like begots I would say.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my thing to talk about.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have the begots section and begots is just a bunch of begots.
[SPEAKER_00]: just a bunch of bigots.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, I also, in this finale, I think I said on the, on the finale episode, I think it's been some time now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think I said on the finale episode, I really liked it better on second watch.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to read an email boarded here because Jordan hadn't had the same experience said, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but that was an awful penultimate episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess this was the second last episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am HO for what has been a great season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what it did in what did it in for me was a stupid gale talk over at the end, which is always annoyed me and just feels cheap.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yay to blowing up bureaucracies and religions at all, but found this episode fell flat onto your coverage, which will perhaps change my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jordan then goes back, like later that day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, it's back and said, ha ha, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: I spent many years in NYC and I'm on talk, totally have heard of Teresa Caputo and the Long Island psychic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mentioned that on that episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll only remember this commercials and the sham wow guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as I thought, now appreciate the episode more post-warhounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you heard it here, folks.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're out here improving people's experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: And also with you, and we had another listener response in this section too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, would you like to read it?
[SPEAKER_02]: I would, because it's from my friend on the Tolkienian side, Arthur H. Yes, I recognize the name, hello Arthur.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to let y'all know how much I am enjoying both the foundations, show and your discussion of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I first read the books many decades ago, and had a major impact on my reading habits.
[SPEAKER_02]: Similar to my having picked up a paperback in 1966 or so, with a flaming volcano I'd weird flying guys, and turned to the most interesting story in this collection entitled Mount Doom.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's another story entirely.
[SPEAKER_02]: In any case, I doubt this will give rise to the level of any impact or mention.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's a presentation I gave on the topic of Asim off at Mithmoot in 2018.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, I missed that when Jordan sounds interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I expect if people wanted to scroll through and they find out what Mithmoot is, MIT, HM-00T, Mithmoot does a lot of good sci-fi fantasy stuff too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Arthur did a attached attach the presentation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, thank you Arthur for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It looks like a lovely presentation here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, indeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: We also got one more piece of feedback that I put in this general thought section and then we'll get into more specific thoughts later.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is from Chris A. Love the show, but hate bad writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gail getting gut shot and then performing James Bond style action sequences is ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Especially since the scene later, you see Brother Day also get shot in the abdomen and collapse realistically.
[SPEAKER_00]: And wasn't that station in orbit?
[SPEAKER_00]: How was Gale falling out of a busted window down to into the atmosphere?
[SPEAKER_00]: And writing a shield or whatever through the air like a surfboard?
[SPEAKER_00]: This reminded me of George Clooney's Batman, and that's not a good reminder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let them be in poll any nonsense like this in season one or I may have quit it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I love the show and I'm thrilled that it's been renewed for season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Chris, this is this is funny because I too thought that that moment was kind of silly.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is the kind of show where I'm like, it's kind of kind of math magic and every now and then something silly is going to happen and I'm just going to go with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like Star Wars, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, every now and then there's going to be space whales and we're
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: Going with it is a good way to approach it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think part of the problem is that they do this so seldom and everything else is so carefully crafted and far more consistent and believable and so forth than this, that it sticks out like a sore thumb.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't disagree with anything that you said.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was particularly thinking about the whole gut shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: which I guess we're supposed to interpret as having been very superficial.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's sure she wasn't reading it like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a little embarrassed instance.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is going back to my complaint that I want that three to five minutes scene between when they finally disabled.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, beta meal.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she dashes out of the room.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, they, they needed something else there in my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think it's very excusable what they do with Kel, but at the same time, I'm willing to excuse it because I'm having fun with the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I made another section here, Marilyn, called early season takes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these are takes of us not read on air early in the season because we were recording a little bit of head, but they have to do with earlier episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's fun to look back on what people had to say early in the season, theory, crafting, all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't read more resources.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be happy to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, Maurice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rhys writes, Denver's elf followed the zero with law that a robot may not harm humanity or through an action allowed humanity to come to harm.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's not in the books, but in my opinion, she is following the plans of our Daniel Olivau.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whose goal is to save humanity?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not sure she's supposed to be our Daniel, but she believes in understand psychohistory.
[SPEAKER_02]: The vision of psychohistory was manipulated by Arginil, and given to Harry to carry out the plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Day understands an accepts psychohistory.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dusk doesn't wanna die.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Dawn, he gets it, but he too is a part of Daniel's plans and may be being manipulated by the mule.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lastly, Dawn's arc is a guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: He may or may not be manipulated.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think he believes the math.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I definitely think Don believes the math.
[SPEAKER_02]: They've all been believing the math ever since Stemmers all revealed it to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that amazing line from the cynical day before he has his rebirth experience of the pits of my kitchen.
[SPEAKER_02]: When he says this toy, listen to that toy.
[SPEAKER_00]: forgot about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Maurice, you were right.
[SPEAKER_00]: D'Neil is Demerzel, Demerzel is D'Neil, and I think you were right to read the three Clions like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: We only have two left, but we'll see what they do next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this Dawn has been through quite a lot, and this dusk is pretty unhinged.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, to both.
[SPEAKER_00]: On Ken happened in the early
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we had another email from Jordan.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Jordan shows up three times in this All right Jordan was good Jordan was given us takes throughout the season, but we weren't reading them out loud yet Bonjour, they lower hounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to do my bad kebba qua for Jordan.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a good tradition now Loving your coverage Marilyn and John covering and loving this season
[SPEAKER_00]: I truly find each episode better than the last, my initial minor pet peeve was a seemingly random insertion of the Galactic Council, but over the episodes, they've slowly built up the explanation, including in the last episode, 4 where Gell was giving off a checklist of foundation accomplishments and mentioned something to the effect of, we made the Galactic Council strong, so I have dropped my initial annoyance.
[SPEAKER_00]: To step in, David Corner a bit here, the cinematography has been excellent this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for stepping in for David, his David has abandoned us this season on Foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also feels like they are actively taking a cue from the other Azamov cinema hit Blade Runner as the cityscapes and civilian shots really give off a Blade Runner film vibe and it works super well considering the context.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love the new characters too, especially Beta and Torin who are clearly much more than their surface personas, apparently especially now, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: I... Seriously, I was hoping... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Beta more than Torin, I'm still not...
[SPEAKER_02]: really reading Toran as his own individual white yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll be interested to see if they develop him more next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I don't know how we could hide much of his personality with the holes on his shirts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, where does where's he going to put it all, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does he even have pockets?
[SPEAKER_00]: My God.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was having the hardest time placing the Toran actor and realized he was a random and super creepy, though, ridiculously sexy shape shifter in the Witcher Netflix series.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, the third part for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: He might have been random and random and creepy, but yeah, the sexy definitely carried over.
[SPEAKER_00]: The scene with them and the mule was cinematic brilliance.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really made corporeal the feeling of that hypnotic light show instrument that presumably will have a larger meeting in episodes to come and yeah, that's that's still on the early takes, but yes, it did have a big role.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the visual and auditory realization of that was phenomenal, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: I really, that was one of the key things from taking actual things from the book and giving them to us in this visual format.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely chef's kiss.
[SPEAKER_00]: Last but not least, I am really enjoying the demos I was taking more center stage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her struggle of self identity is fascinating to follow and makes her ironically one of the most human of the gang.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Jim makes use, but with respect and not to add you too much, but an episode for day clearly stated that the nannites were always destined for the markedly 2.0 that helped him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He basically confessed that no matter what, in order for him to escape, he was always going to have to kill him and inject the nannites in order to give himself more time to escape.
[SPEAKER_00]: Effective Lee.
[SPEAKER_00]: Effective Malt?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was Kebaquai.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was a typo.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_00]: Effective Malt.
[SPEAKER_00]: they were never going to be given to the clavinger.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this day is as compassionate as the rest.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is to say, utterly apathetic and thinking only of himself.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, Missia Vudu, great coverage as usual and love wiling away my time with all our hands in my ears.
[SPEAKER_00]: Off to second breakfast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cheers, Assantal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Send for my support.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it was sent from Jordan's iPod.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, order, you have an iPod?
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to hear about this iPod that you have.
[SPEAKER_00]: Femes were up to.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're out of the early section.
[SPEAKER_00]: Marilyn, you had a bunch of thoughts on themes and I wanted to give you some space for that before we have a little bit of feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, one of the themes I picked up on was the dangers of limitless spaces or thresholds.
[SPEAKER_02]: because we are at the threshold of the Klan's ascensions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And those are always sketchy times.
[SPEAKER_02]: And are usually surrounded with all kinds of protections to make sure that nothing slips and I would say that just about everything things slipped this time around.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love the more I thought about it, the more I saw these common theme of Empire,
[SPEAKER_02]: from across earth's own historical empires.
[SPEAKER_02]: Roman Egyptian Greek, Viking, Asian, Middle Eastern, and Christianity and Judaism.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the richness that resulted from that was seen in the settings and the costumes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just so many areas, I really, really appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the sense that
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, initially, as I'm just said, Roman down here, but we're looking at an examination of what impure behavior is, and it can be reflected in lots and lots and lots of earth civilizations.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I enjoyed that.
[SPEAKER_02]: They also beautifully used one of Asimov's themes of will individuals change the future,
[SPEAKER_02]: But I love that they gave it to Quant to summarize, so well, when Dusk says to Quant, we, meaning the Clions, are not supposed to be interchangeable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are supposed to be interchangeable?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not true anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: But Quant responds, I doubt it ever was.
[SPEAKER_02]: A person is a person.
[SPEAKER_01]: No matter how small.
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter how small.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was raised to believe individuals can't affect the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I know we affect each other, dawn mattered.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that leads me with the question, do Clions have souls?
[SPEAKER_02]: They are definitely individuals.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: We did have that whole thing where Clion, the day Clion could not see a vision at the end of the maiden's journey for the triple goddesses.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and that's two of an awful lot of human aspirants as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's not even to everybody just to receive a vision.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I, but I also think, you know, it doesn't it doesn't necessarily rule out having a soul, but it doesn't help.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't give me good evidence either.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I, well, it could, it could mean that, you know, the goddess proceeds at this being has so much soul that they don't need a confirmation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really like this idea of transitions, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You have these crises, or all transitions, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You have the traders rising up and the economy changing from this religious economy to a merchant prince economy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have the second foundation coming into fruition.
[SPEAKER_00]: you have the mule being bored and taking power.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have all these transitions happening and and those are where somebody can strike.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we also see Harry dying.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Transitioning from one world to another and we don't really know what that world that he transitioned into is.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess we don't actually know if we saw him dying.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I guess was there a body behind or not?
[SPEAKER_02]: We didn't really see that.
[SPEAKER_02]: That question's never answered.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think there was a body.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he went right to the moon.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my question.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's as good a guess as we're going to get yeah, until next season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad they gave us the tease in the moon at the end, because otherwise I would have been very frustrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just disappearing in episode two, I think it was.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then just never showing up again.
[SPEAKER_00]: I could have used more Jared Harris the season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I mean they've definitely made judicious and excellent use of him, but I think this season really was mostly focused on the mule.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the development of that whole novel that in which of course Harry Selden doesn't really play any part at all because in the books he's been dead for out-rooming hundreds of years by that point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, just that the whole theme of water, the meal refused to refer us to Gailas as the girl from the water planet and how many how many images and actual scenes of drowning do we get?
[SPEAKER_02]: Throughout and going all the way back to the first season, you know, season's one two and three, you know, she starts off on a planet that's drowning.
[SPEAKER_00]: right and and I think it also goes back to the can you escape the roots of your life right can you change your own trajectory at least even if you can't change the psycho historical plan and has she been designated all along to be the sleeper because con actually calls her the sleeper at one point during this season she does like to sleep she does well quite a long time she needs to sleep i don't know if she likes it
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, I didn't seem too bothered by it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Christina J wrote in, and I put this in the theme section.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this was an interesting dissection of songbird.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Christina J, do you want to read it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey guys, love listening to your varying opinions.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think song is only being viewed to the lens of manipulator.
[SPEAKER_02]: or as entirely disgusted, defining anything genuine to love about day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I certainly understand, as seen through the optics of what precipitated this business arrangement, this concept coupled with what I think it's fair to say she has shown their relationships emotions through days eyes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would be remiss if I didn't also consider her lack of comprehending on how she could love day, consider it considering his ancestor's factions,
[SPEAKER_02]: Her declaration I could never have loved you is an instinctively abhorrent response, however.
[SPEAKER_02]: Until her memories are restored, she is missing all context.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I hear what she's saying at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: it really we've only seen okay I'll continue reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: As you pointed out she didn't have her memories erased of her previous life yet she was content to bring him her home.
[SPEAKER_02]: She even warned he wouldn't like her family.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it has a romantic conclusion but it's worth exploring day's own change from empire to person.
[SPEAKER_02]: He is who he is but he imagined he would be better.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rue had her memories restored this is from the previous season right and still made stick with the older version proofing empire can be loved Yeah, I I think I actually was pretty like I think there's some true love from songbird.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it was holy manipulation I don't think that she lacked a personal connection with empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was something genuine there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think the manipulation was the
[SPEAKER_00]: the loss of a memories, which doesn't happen until after she leaves the course, but well, saying, but Christina said we're viewing songbird as through the lens of an epilator.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure, I think that maybe getting to Empire may have been a manipulative thing, not just from her, but from her family, from her society,
[SPEAKER_00]: I we don't know how much he was forced into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: How much agency.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do think that once she was with day, there was a genuine connection.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she's forgotten about that by the time that that we get back to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: But even after forgetting him.
[SPEAKER_00]: They she still finds the need to save him right through there's still a connection there.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's she he charms her again.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can just remember him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the turning point is when he tells her that you saw a robot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she does soften after that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he didn't have to tell her that, but he did.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in part, perhaps because he realized that would be the most important thing for her to know, but all the stuff that happened, but she can no longer remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as she sees him struggling,
[SPEAKER_02]: to explain and then to say, look, you can get this robot now and to see what Sun Master does and so on and so on as we know by the end of it, she's saving his life and even tells him you're doing something good for humanity.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think she saw more of his potential, but only after he had brought it forth.
[SPEAKER_02]: Frankly, there's just not really a lot to love in the day of the earlier episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of mushrooms.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think she would have been as strong-affected by it all the mushrooms as he would.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brother Dude really knew how to lay back.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just think the first reaction, almost the first reaction, well, her first reaction to seeing Empire and her living was terror.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: because as she says to ocean glass, it wasn't supposed to be this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not supposed to have an empire in our living room.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, what's going on here?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is this happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: So clearly, they haven't read the constitution.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't kick quarters.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't have four people to quarter soldiers here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or empires.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think this is a fair takeristina.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think there's more to song than we gave her credit for, perhaps.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: The right name with us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it would have been nice if we could have seen that as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we did, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we did by the way she saved him and the way she... Definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the character arc was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the whole question of seeing her through the eyes of the manipulator.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's a good issue to raise.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, well let's take a break and when we get back, we'll get into some detailed reflections.
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, we're back and Marilyn, you've got a bunch of detailed reflections that you wanted to make here.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then this is where I put a lot of feedback because I think, you know, we have a lot of really thoughtful listeners who write in with these long and detailed emails.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to cut anything out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's where you get that chance.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So something I found rather amusing in episode one when we had been trying to understand how the whole essential system works.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we said, rather than I get six months to cuddle the baby, and then goes off into this sunset.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, yeah, not what happened this time was it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there was not, maybe a little snuggle, but not a loving one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed Gale's arc very much, even though it wasn't just featured just some of the other parts in this season.
[SPEAKER_02]: From the intelligent naive wave to someone with strong and electing commitment to the
[SPEAKER_02]: And I particularly appreciated the ways that they pulled in those bits and pieces from as far back as season one, as I mentioned earlier, the sleeper image, and they're using that to a very good effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: So John, do you still think that Don was not empathetic?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did I say you wasn't empathetic?
[SPEAKER_02]: You sure did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why aren't you not?
[SPEAKER_02]: You even brought up the instance of me being pro-wetsus name and in the
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Started with a series of the other, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Jude Law.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, uh, no, I think he is empathetic.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, my, but he is empathetic, uh, and I see you asking here why his legs don't heal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know because he's supposedly still as nanite, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, no, Reselle did say they went offline, but I thought that just when she couldn't track him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, my theory is, well, no, he said to himself,
[SPEAKER_02]: his nanites stopped working because the suit turned them off in order to preserve as much energy as possible to support, you know, the basic bottom line life systems, which included being able to, you know, chew on his legs as it were in order to help him survive.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was my understanding of the explanation for why his nanites stopped working.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I truly, I truly do think that Demors All Thought that don't was dead because then now night's it's stop working.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this space suit ring called just never occurred to her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, I, I buy it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, for laying that out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you also deserve Kudos Internet Points and Glory because you called darkness as destruction of all the embryonic Cleans and episode four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, I'm good.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are good, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: You deserve
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that episode 3, which was dawn in the library and then dawn in the cafe and learning about second donation in Gale, that's my favorite episode this series.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then episode 5 is a close second, seeing dawn in Gale and action together in the failed enclosure of Calgon and particularly dawn's fair one message to dusk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So those were all very much the top of my list.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, those are good scenes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I have such a hard time separating the episodes into what happened in each one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, believe me, I had to go back and review after I said it was the best one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I said it right after I watched it and then I went on to the rest of this and it went to the wife episode five.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've enjoyed following Torin and Beta the most.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was the most complicated pair.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also really enjoyed watching the Han of it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: I enjoyed watching kind of the fall of fall from grace of the mayors, the Ruhan's eyes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the weakest part of the season was what a lot of people call from the beginning of this meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: this meal was a little weak.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that what I look I knew from the beginning and this was this allowed me to forgive a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: I knew from the beginning probably not the real deal based on the books.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I still think they could have done better on making him less of a cartoon as a villain.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really was something of a minor tone, wasn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I got a little after a while.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's unfortunate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have to worry about him anymore.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, let's hope not.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was interesting, re-listening, or re-watching, excuse me, all of bed is scenes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It became very painful to me after this supposed to reveal that she wasn't fact that you know, because why would she married toward in the first place?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why did she tell the backing meal to back off Dawn when he was torturing him?
[SPEAKER_02]: It just makes it seem as though all of her kindness and her generosity, which I really loved, was just false manipulation to satisfy her obsession to have the whole galaxy left her.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, I just don't buy this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do not buy that data is Samuel.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is another puppet.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I'm glad we are united on that point, Sean, because it, yeah, I would be really unhappy if they continued with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I speculated it is really as episode 7 that dusk was going to go full nihilistic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought that that's what you've done in episode 9 when you blew up 3 planets and however many billions of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just didn't imagine the bloodbath that happened in the file episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was the good or dem wrong moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: But darkness survived it, which isn't supposed to happen, you know, good or dem wrong means twilight of the gods.
[SPEAKER_02]: but this empire survived.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I don't think he's going to survive much past episodes one, two or three of the next season.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also, I was confused as to where the murder of the baby Clion was happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think now that he put the baby Clion in the exact place where he himself would have stood right before he got dusted.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think you're probably right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking, do they just have laser stations at every place in case a servant's really pissing you off?
[SPEAKER_00]: You just go, call me, call me, call me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's more poetic that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think somebody mentioned that that was where it happened, but don't ask me who or when.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you've got none of the
[SPEAKER_00]: Should go without saying, but loving and very appreciative of your foundation coverage really Hope the show gets a season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Jordan, and I hope that you get a season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I know we had a season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been renewed now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Straight into theory corner, but I'm starting to think the mule is a slate of hand and not the one actually Running the show or that it's a two person act.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am not an expert in human psyche, but I would have assumed the parents would have chosen the older child over the baby, so I wonder if the baby was giving off some kind of psychic energy and made the parent lean towards choosing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then when confronted with the killing of his brother of the brother,
[SPEAKER_00]: the baby, maybe channeled through the brother at that moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: I tried to, I tried looking to see what was there with the meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: The only obvious person is Magnifico, which would be a really messed up twist.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how much of a range as powers would have to have, though, and I could be overlooking someone else obvious.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also explains why Bated is alive and not drowned,
[SPEAKER_00]: the like because Magnifico clearly has an affinity for her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, my theory for the very beginning was that the baby was going to turn into what we see as Magnifico.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who is the actual real?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Partly because, you know, baby, if babies got insufficient nutrients in the very early phases of their lives, it tends to have an impact on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jordan continues, John, you're cracking me up with the son-lord voice commentary as I feel exact to the same, yeah, I remember the actor Blake Ritzon from the short-lived show, Cryptonbury plays a similar role in fact, and then via Alicia, I saw him again in the gilded age, a great podcast on this great podcast called The Lore Hounds, by the way, and uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: He has that same discapability voice.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's an amazing feeder actor, but man, the voice can throw you off a bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure can.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure can.
[SPEAKER_00]: In question corner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so the emperor that we were looking for was the Queen City name, say, since anatus.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think somebody else wrote it in last week, so I didn't add that one because it'd be a... There were like three people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think who wrote in for since anatus.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, I gotta get ready for my academic class.
[SPEAKER_00]: Morn Phanamete!
[SPEAKER_00]: Jimick use Merlin!
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going back to America now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nah, I mean...
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, as you'll know, rest assured, I am absolutely telling you the truth to say that at that point in my life I had never heard it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have now subsequently watched of YouTube.
[SPEAKER_02]: of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, my little village square and so now I have heard it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you don't know if I will ever recognize it again if I hear it again.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Alicia sent you a live performance of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a cover performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need you, Marilyn, to go after this, watch the entire music video.
[SPEAKER_00]: of the original song by Queen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it's, it's just a vibe.
[SPEAKER_00]: You just have to get the original vibe, not, not any, not filtered through anybody's cover or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got to get the original vibe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, then send me the link down below.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, I will.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do my best to listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, grommet, see ya, voodoo, force us death.
[SPEAKER_00]: Throw and just play in food and coverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Laura Hound corner copy I never ceases to amaze me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Jordan.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always fun to get in the mail for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we've got more emails here Christina J writes in.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to read that one sure thing to break after all that kebba quiet I mean rest your voice for the ones once the French get hold of me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't control myself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah Christina J writes too little on like WTF y'all cut my boy screen time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just as he was reaching peak performance
[SPEAKER_02]: don't play my sexy plea on the worthy this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: He better get some robotic legs to become this galaxy's FDR inside an insurrection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anything other than being bad is upon next season.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tend to agree with you on that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought they may be my spoiler setting him up to play a somewhat channis role in it all, but me thinks not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what a channis role is?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's from a different a different book.
[SPEAKER_02]: That is my impression.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, sorry, Kristina, if you want to write in an educators, that would be great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's in the second foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Chattas was the guy sent by the Mule to find the second foundation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Looks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: The guy who rides with you know who I don't want to say who.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: She continues episode five remains my favorite the season.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is your favorite episode in moment?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we covered that above, so now you know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish we got an indication of how the galaxy is feeling after the black ol' bomb just killed five trillion people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that is kind of an oversight that we haven't heard anything about this yet, but I suspect, as I'll say below in my section on predictions, that will be something of the composition for season four.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think there's going to be some.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no chance there's not a consequence for this, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that Cleon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: Indeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Christina continues.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was an overamundance of stock footage from previous seasons, particularly in every gale scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: For every scene gale was in.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not an easy act.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm easy act.
[SPEAKER_02]: Jeez.
[SPEAKER_02]: Shorten the time and keep the dead minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh boy Christina I've been watching a lot of one piece anime lately and you would hate I don't know if you're an anime fan, but you would hate the amount of flashbacks in anime because they will I swear the first five minutes of every episode is theme song and flashbacks So why don't I want to take the next few bits since this is a very long email and then I'll bring that back to you That cool looking robot with Kelly at the end is not discard how how disappointing
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know so these are these are now very books.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know Han wasn't killed off, so I wouldn't have to suffer through the inevitable angst
[SPEAKER_00]: I am both sorry and not sorry, his romance with Gail is such a manufactured plot point that it actually irritates me when objectively it should work, but his Gail herself, for example, multiple times, she's had a legacy of emotional trauma, not to mention a grandchild in the win to personally motivate her actions, Han himself is fine, I mean them cheeks, but the romantic ankle, in my opinion, diminished his characterization.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I didn't love that romance.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am very glad that they did not do a love triangle with Dawn.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh no.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, that wasn't gonna happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, how can Gale possibly engage in any kind of long-term commitment when her existence within time is so different?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, from pretty much everybody else around
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, ask every Vampire story that has a vampire fall in love with a mortal.
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, thanks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they're everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: They love them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give you with the vampires and masterpiece.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't care what we'll say.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can remember the days before Twilight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, either view with the vampires like 30 years older than Twilight.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Give it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's give it the credit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's from the 70s.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, how dare they kill my cracked ship of Demerzell and Kale before it was an open water?
[SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha ha.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and it rationale has settled.
[SPEAKER_00]: The ship is only docked, Demerzell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe dead, but the needle lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: We shall see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we'll see.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demerzell losing dawn of whom she saw so much potential.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then dies losing dawn all over again is something someone owes me therapy sessions for.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do, yeah, the whole thing with a baby, I already said you'd not need to hear again, but that was really very, very troubling.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to wrap up the semel?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just realized whether dude looking like an incarnation of Jesus all season was in fact the claim that died for the sins of his lineage.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, his sacrifice is what may reignite and did reignite an entire religion.
[SPEAKER_02]: that definitely has much more of an investment to mention political power within trend toward itself.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm really interested to see what my Virginians are gonna do next season.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope they don't drop that like a hot potato because there's so much potential there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I've seen where you the one who first brought up John the Baptist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you were.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm totally with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think John the Baptist.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the forerunner of Jesus, the one who baptizes Jesus and confirms who Jesus says, I think Brother Dude was John the Baptist and then Demorselle was Jesus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting, very interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: He names her, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: He sure does.
[SPEAKER_02]: She sure does, and now I'm thinking of a very old musical pre-pair.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you know, the way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the orchestra.
[SPEAKER_02]: That Lord, you were what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in the pit orchestra for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I played the guitar for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I find it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I played that like maybe 20 times.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I know that musical very well.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been in a few musical pits my time I'm that sounds horrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been in a few putters for musicals in my time as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you have fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: You sure do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're very sick of the music, but you have fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you'll learn it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope, by note.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: What else we got?
[SPEAKER_02]: going to shoot my horn a bit because episode five and six, I definitely put dusk being the one that ends the bloodline on my bingo card.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he was hungry.
[SPEAKER_02]: He sure was.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's all kinds of metaphors of being hungry and being eaten and Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was another one of those overarching themes that didn't actually put my figure on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Christina continues, over all, I understand the criticisms and disappointment, but for me, the finale mostly delivered in what was a satisfying journey that just didn't quite ascend, but remains consequential.
[SPEAKER_02]: Lord burn, goddess, lee pace, charismatic devil, and tarant's man Satan himself, so that I demand consideration for your nominations, please and thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is so forgotten by the time of Grammys of S. and Grammys season, though, because it's made a may, so you're not going to get the nomination, so like Jude.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, it's a tough calendar, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she ends and enjoyed this thing to your discussions all season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very much, Kristi.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm so glad that you enjoyed them, and thank you for telling us that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she has a PS!
[SPEAKER_02]: Completely biased opinion, but the F-bomb is one of the most versatile and beautiful inventions of the English language that would and should transcend generations centuries into the future, thus it is also at home in sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's fair.
[SPEAKER_00]: I accept that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand the argument.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just hits me differently.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rocky Zim, Laura Master, what would you like to, won't you read that one?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Rocky Zim, Laura Master, which I'll keep reminding people because we missed him for like a month after his, uh, side up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, Rocky.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, hello there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really enjoyed the season and I love the show, I watch each episode twice and probably need a few more watches to catch everything that happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I liked how arcs that were started earlier on were paid off the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Demerzel arc and how Demerzel was working with Harry on Psycho History, the galactic empire and how it was destroyed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dusk went full dark lord in this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love Terrence Man's performance with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brother Day was great and I enjoyed his change in his feelings towards Demorsel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also how Day and Dusk switched positions were Dusk was trying to serve the Empire while Day didn't care and then by the end, Day was trying to serve Empire Slash humanity and Dusk just wanted to kill everyone and didn't care.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good nicely observed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: For Dawn, I have a few ideas of what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beta could have messed with his mind to make him think his legs were damaged and kept him trapped up in the Med Bay for another purpose.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dawn and Gal may be working together to fool Beta.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demorazelle may have deactivated the Nanites to keep Dawn off the radar to preserve Empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot is going on and from what Goyer said on bald move, Dawn may have more of a purpose.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I have some some comments on things that Goyer had said in an interview for their on-down stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep that in mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Put a pin in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beta being the meal threw me off and at first I didn't really like it, but it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe Maggie could still be the mule and his messing with beta.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe Maggie could end up being the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: So much going on and so many thoughts still in my head.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am reading Foundations Edge right now and want to finish the book to see what happens.
[SPEAKER_00]: The ending of the finale was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was cool to see Kale and Ultron at the end of talking about a robot clasping.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I said before, I listened to Goers interview on bald-moving spoke about the ending and Kale and how they were on the moon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have not read the robot books, both from when I heard the robots may still be on the
[SPEAKER_00]: Kelly said something like we're being pulled into a conflict we don't want to be involved with and wondering if the head from the inheritance was a robot from the wars that is in hiding because of Demorselle.
[SPEAKER_00]: Demorselle could track the robot head if it reaches out in class.
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe once Demorselle is, quote unquote, dead, it reaches out to Kelly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or Demorselle somehow took over the robot head and is now able to class with Kelly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, I loved the season and I have so much more I could say, but I will head back to my vault and wheat for the next crisis.
[SPEAKER_00]: Steve, Rocky Zam, thanks, Rocky Zam.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was a nice thoughtful, level email, and yeah, I'm most curious about the collay dimmer's all stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really want to happen there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wish that wasn't on such a cliffhanger.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, for sure, for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: In fact, my first unfinished thread says,
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are she in a stereo and the ones referred to when she says that there were some who wanted Harry to have skin in the game as opposed to electrons?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is flesh Harry truly gone?
[SPEAKER_02]: Are there still two Harrys in the galaxy?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did the portally walk through lead to the moon?
[SPEAKER_02]: I begin to think that the we is the small network of a handful of surviving robots scattered across the galaxy, but still able to class and so to share information.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking that Demosal was one of these robots until Clion, but first, blocked it with that darn chip, overriding her conforming to the four laws and replacing it with the one that only lock.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I, I, I,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that she was a spy, honestly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think she, like she said, I think I've just done the truth she was a general, she was captured, and she was put into a vault, into a prison, and restricted from everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no, I do too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that was her role with the network of robots that were still surviving.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK, let's see what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: And why did we have Scarlet, you want to know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was I didn't know she just I think it was just horror of having a kid be willing to kill herself and I Think it was just a horror thing honestly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I I think it was a good it was I think she was intended to boost Viking Meals hole Act persona the monster factor right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did yeah, yeah, good.
[SPEAKER_02]: We had
[SPEAKER_02]: Still wondering what will happen to Don, his, I expect we are all are, he was left in the hospital with his bleeding legs, and I'm sorry, the foundation has much better medical treatment than that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why, why was he never treated?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, really fuel could have just been withholding it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He could have been like, oh, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, better off to have him unable to move.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess, how did that work out for you, fuel, biking, fuel?
[SPEAKER_02]: I really want to know how the cloning process works and how does this succession from one form of them prior to the next occur, you know, I wanted to see the actual ascension and they never show it to us.
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don's ascension happens, but offstage and Dase says, oh no, I missed your ascension, so it's happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: We saw plenty of times how what happens with dusk, the turns of the darkness, and then goes by by.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that whole transition from data does too.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think because it will feel underwhelming no matter what they do at this point, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so hyped up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that's a good, I thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think it's off screen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, it's like how in jaws, the horror comes from not seeing jaws, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Very hitchclacky and, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And maybe it was just one of those each of your serial things and they never will explain it to us because they're being away from Empire now anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is next for Mechagin?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's so much potential there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just like this amazing, soup full of nutrients, waiting to be cooked up for something really wonderful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they were very organized and secretive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think they will now go up to the main level and start demanding answers about them or so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would like that very much.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, and overthrow the religious hierarchical rule and the spreading of the good news that there is still a robot on their very own planet.
[SPEAKER_02]: might not be out of line.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, what will they do when they find the puddle of a golden goo that used to be tempers now?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't think they're going to be very happy about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would say Institute of Stray can refuse to supply all of Trench or with any more food.
[SPEAKER_00]: And does he's going to go, well, I still have some lamb left, so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I'll subsist up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And brains.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he'll also subsist on the brains.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I also began to wonder, are all micro-genyens in the inheritance?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, those who are, it's got to be right to keep secret.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess, I guess.
[SPEAKER_02]: But those who are seem to be dedicated to a holding onto a dream of the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the philosophy of the candy seller in the market was quite different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very much about not clinging.
[SPEAKER_02]: when you deliberately create a type of candy, which no two candies will ever taste the same.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that even the most perfect one is a flavor you will only taste once.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems to me that impermanence is a strong value of that culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: And just given, it was such a ritualization that they've created a society, and I really hope they will continue to work that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just think she probably tried off
[SPEAKER_00]: She didn't get in, she didn't have the stuff for it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I guess, could be.
[SPEAKER_02]: I also wonder if I would be kind of a set one not really upset, but I would pause and go, if we never see an uprising of illuminists.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's a good question, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because they're, but the central body has been taken out, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: I guess we have one pre-stest lift from the central body.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least, but you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like somebody high up enough to get assigned to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, if, you know, having for fans, as you instance, they took out the Vatican in the Pope and the clerics and all the people in Vatican City,
[SPEAKER_02]: There's still all kind of archbishop's around the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Pope's from Chicago.
[SPEAKER_00]: He takes the new key tosses to back atcha.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I would like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And would it be interesting if a luminous is to join up with a mega-genius?
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very religious mindsets here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's put a pin in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when we come back next season, we're going to see if that plays out.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will see again in what three years time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two years time, I guess it's two years time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still want to know why he was called Harrington Selden by Viking Mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that is his full name.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it is his full name.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never seen her in before, but I'm not sure at least.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not saying it, it couldn't be.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the only time that I remember hearing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, his Wikipedia article says, Harrington, quote, Harry Selden.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, I guess that's what I think that is his full name.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you just link up on the Harrington, but I don't think it was too big of a call.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was just Wikipedia for the win.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it was just one of those little micro details that I really wanted to understand.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I liked the way they showed Gale as having a ability to recognize that a mind
[SPEAKER_02]: had been tampered with subsequently.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's that is an important theme from the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I wonder if that's another one of the threads from the the next the final book in the trilogy that they're going to pick up on in season four.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they've never felt such love.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, they're doing fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: We shall see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't you tell us what Cincinnati Joe wrote to us?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cincinnati Joe had a lot to say.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, all a couple of questions on this season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Were you surprised that Gail didn't seem to show any remorse regret or even sorrow for four-second situation that killed billions?
[SPEAKER_00]: The goal of her plan did not seem clear cut unlike say blowing up the Death Star.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yet even when it turns out to not have mattered for stopping the mule, she seems unfazed by all the death.
[SPEAKER_02]: conflict.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's why she can't commit to Han.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's why she keeps a distance because she's using people like chess pieces, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is... She has to enact Harriet Selden.
[SPEAKER_02]: In effect, as we have experienced him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it wasn't her idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she's taken an honest her idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she has to think in terms of the greater good.
[SPEAKER_02]: with all the subsequent burdens of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think she did suffer for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really do.
[SPEAKER_02]: But she couldn't afford to let that rule her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had to do what she and Harry together had figured out and she subsequently worked on.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had to do what was going to ensure that the plan could carry forth.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think if you ask Gail, she'd say, look, I'm killing billions to save trillions, and I just have to live with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think maybe it helps that nobody she knows is a live anymore, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: It might help her a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to find any saving grace.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do think the yellow season one would have felt terrible about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just, I get, I, this is absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yellow season three seems so like you say, just obsessed with the plan.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's part of her arc, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and is it a good change?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and again, the weighing the balance between 30,000 years of barbaric terrors close to 1,000 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see, but it is certainly a mathematicians approach and probably not a theologians, or even somebody who works for a moral principle of some kind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, something that I don't think enough people really say about them.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, people are like, oh, well, he's shortened the period.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but like, it's only based on him, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the problem with these authoritarian regimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that you might have a benevolent dictator for a while?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: eventually either the dictators going to change their path or there's going to be an air or there's not going to be an air and there's going to be a succession more and these things never last because they are fundamentally weak and unstable regimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole point of the journey of the foundation is that Harry Selder is not saying you're the empire right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying you need to go through all these hoops to become the kind of
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or who can run a huge, literally, a galactic-sized association of worlds, which does not have to be run along empirical principles.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, no.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's calling in an empire because of the expansiveness of it, but I don't think it needs to be an authoritarian empire, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very difficult for us humans, given our history, to separate the two, however.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think we found plenty of examples of democratic empires.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, the British Empire for a large part of it was absolutely democratic, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was at least partly democratic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think you could make the case that the first foundation as presented in this season was doing its best to become, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So called democratic empire, but of course it did last the democratic piece.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can make the case right now that the U.S.
[SPEAKER_00]: has been higher in many cases, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think Empire has come many forms.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily all dictatorships.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fair point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cincinnati, Joe continues, was Demosil actually compelled to save the baby.
[SPEAKER_00]: Seems clear she was just condemning them both to death.
[SPEAKER_00]: If her overriding directive was to save the baby, then she should have knocked it out of the area instead of clamoring on top of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But logically, it appears it would be much better for the Empire if she's there to restart the cloning using Clion 1, etc.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, day is the ruler.
[SPEAKER_00]: Without Demerzill, Empire is lost, and a baby is useless today, even if they would have both lived.
[SPEAKER_00]: Logically, she should have just killed Dusk and move on.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so I can I make an excuse here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had the same feeling of like, this is a stupid move.
[SPEAKER_00]: She should have pushed him out of the way or not done anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I also think that Demerzell, and maybe you made this point to me, but Demerzell is so in her maze now that she's not making the right decisions anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: She is sloppy now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's in fact, she's almost being ruled more by emotion than my logic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: because baby laser save it yeah right exactly very very much very reactive instead of thoughtful but yes i really do think that this is part of the outcome of harry having poisoned her with the prime radiant and shown her you're influencing me marlin i'm just regurgitating your opinions now well if they taste good to john then let me keep them you don't have to throw them up well thank you i appreciate it
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's what we're expected to interpret it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And since it had a joke continues, the show introduces clairvoyance, but then it wouldn't gale's visions of the future show the real meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: The meal wasn't even born when Gale started having these visions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Confidentation.
[SPEAKER_00]: The confrontation Gale has with the fake meal doesn't match her visions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the confrontation she saw is still to come, but then it will be the wrong person.
[SPEAKER_00]: If the writers wanted to pull this fake out with beta, then the Mules facelys form should have been obscured in her visions, or better yet leave out clairvoyance completely.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's enough magic slash tech in the show already.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a serial moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is just grab your fruit loops or grab whatever you want.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can make a little more go on, background all this because when she's describing her experience back from season one, when she's traveling with the spacers, but she doesn't fall asleep, and she describes how she could see history as a point and then align and then it spreads out
[SPEAKER_02]: and effect.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, every change presuits is another change.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily an equal opposite reaction, but as she has changed things, she's doing so as part of her ability to mold time, if you will, to alter the future.
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't put it in quite some stark terms, but I think that's one way you could interpret it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, and the other major point from, I think this was from season one, or maybe it was too, anyway, I think it's one when Seller Halbin is killed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two, yeah, as season two.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was two, okay, five.
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, no, this is my, I don't think she says this is my gift to you, but maybe she does.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you know that the future can be changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because someone was posted dilator.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, and so yes, Gail can see her future.
[SPEAKER_02]: She can wrap it around herself.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's her future.
[SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't necessarily include all futures of everybody else.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because futures are available.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So again, to observe a thing is not to change it necessarily.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think quantum physics and that it is to change it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But and this may be more quantum physics than any.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was thinking actually of a different kind of analogy there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, to observe a thing is to change it so that is another possible basis for why the meal could keep changing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although she does say in this series that every time she tries to see past that point, she does bump right back into it and it's always the same face.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe the future doesn't water to see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe the future is still plowed in and uncertain and even she with her ability to see
[SPEAKER_02]: And interesting when Demoselle rides a long gale when she sees her future after all that to a particular nonsense, she tells Gale that she's still not convinced that it could just be a hallucination, but she later tells somebody else, I lied, I actually do believe that this is the future that Gale sees.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, I kind of think, well, if it is, we haven't gotten there yet, because Gale is not revolving around the edge of a black hole at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, whatever, so I suppose you could call it clairvoyance, but I'm not sure that word is the same feeling for me and in what I see in this so I think it's almost
[SPEAKER_00]: she's approaching.
[SPEAKER_00]: I almost want to compare it to Dune, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The Paula Trady's being able to see a future, but also come at it from the other direction with Mintat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Mintat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because we're going we're going between foundation and Dune.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have to get the words right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: He has the Mintat trading so he can come at it from
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the forward direction, but he can also combat it backwards with his Christians and I feel like this is almost the same thing and you'll recall that even in doing Paul is able to avoid certain futures.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Not all of them, but he is at least able to avoid to avoid some of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or we could drop out and get another property and say, yeah, it's tiny, why me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we might have to do that at some point.
[SPEAKER_00]: A final complaint from Joe, Cincinnati Joe, we never got an explanation for why Don's Nanite stopped working.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why Demorsel just assumed Don was dead, and why she didn't even try to recover the body of a clean on, which the raiders then easily did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which we addressed earlier in this episode, so I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, Intra.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reset.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it intro to go backwards?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll take your word for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're the library and you should know that not necessarily See the indexes which was what the library would say I don't like this one fact with that you have here you do or you know I do not like it I don't I don't want I don't like that word you don't like the word guy noid guy Why and oh I look like we're going for an appointment
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, it's the whole, you know, and it's the guy that are the male female equivalents.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we, everybody was talking about Android when the whole concept of robots was first coming around.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so as I'm off, use it himself and I robot an Android and all the rest of it exclusively of male masculine, but in 79 after, you know, the second wave of feminism was up and truly rolling.
[SPEAKER_02]: he coined the term Guy Noid.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when you look up at Wikipedia in some places, there is reference to Deborah Zell as a Guy Noid and I thought, what in the world is that?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's why I came up with it.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just messing around with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know your ways, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm mischievous.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Marilyn, let's take another break before we head into one of
[SPEAKER_00]: We're back, Marilyn, take us to your favorite section.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why don't I go to my favorite section, but it's a fun section.
[SPEAKER_02]: I call it the Goyer Corner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you make the a liar?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is, this is, sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is your warning listeners.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is your spoiler warning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, spoilers for what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we doing all the books?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we doing, I think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Future.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the interview with Baldmou was wide-ranging and Goer talked a lot about his intentions for upcoming materials.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you don't want to hear this, goodbye.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for joining us.
[SPEAKER_02]: And here you get in two years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And check out the rest of the network too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Show notes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out all our shows on the lower hands.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out all of the affiliates.
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... and i'll do a more full some uh... at the end but everything we talk about from here is going to include books boilers yes so according to the bigger cloud dominion is not entirely destroyed it consists of lots of little planet lets which i believe i mentioned in the early episode
[SPEAKER_02]: But Goyer said having the dawn descend into back in season four is probably too soon.
[SPEAKER_02]: So season five is more likely.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's pretty big.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, seriously.
[SPEAKER_02]: If he was, he was talking pretty free here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I don't think he was talking smack.
[SPEAKER_02]: All of Goyer's production designers, writers, directors, and showrunners are leaving with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've already mentioned this.
[SPEAKER_02]: He left behind a two-page document for all eight seasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: but that's all.
[SPEAKER_02]: He had been doing five page documents for each upcoming season in the past, but this is the thing that early has become so iron, but you know, we'll just touch away and see.
[SPEAKER_02]: He also confirmed that...
[SPEAKER_02]: We're, we're, we're, we're done.
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll survive into the next season.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there we are folks.
[SPEAKER_02]: There it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had no doubts.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had no doubts.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't see how they could possibly get rid of him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So was it Christina?
[SPEAKER_02]: We read earlier who said that she was going to go on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some kind of passive daunting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think Christina has to go on a rampage just yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: A rampage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: The rampage can be postponed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He said that the name of Colle's companion on the moon is a steering, and it is confirmed that this role will be voiced or was voiced by none other than Lee Pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: So as again mentioned above, perhaps that is the way in which Lee Pace will be returning in season 4.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope we see his useful form as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gwear confirmed that it is the Cliaan ship, which prevents Deversel from clasping.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he also said that season three tracks the books more than any other prior seasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mentioned this, sorry, already, because the meal novelette is a more cohesive narrative.
[SPEAKER_02]: Regarding the meal, Gwear said that when he was in high school reading the books, he very much enjoyed the meal section, and was not surprised that Maggie was the meal at his very first reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: thus he felt he needed to build up the warlord character and put him on the screen.
[SPEAKER_02]: On the whole, you know, I agree with that choice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think again, visual medium, it made a lot more sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Book readers would know, and non-book readers could suspect.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Goya thought it would be more surprising to swerve to beta.
[SPEAKER_02]: Those were his exact words, so I may find a crummer to have hoped for those of us who believe that we have not seen the real mil even now.
[SPEAKER_02]: and he was particularly interested in doing this because she's a woman and she knew as a woman that she needed a cliche warrior to draw the heat away from her.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yet he still agrees where it does that we're not done with the mule.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, fingers crossed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they asked if
[SPEAKER_02]: so that leaves lots of room per speculation.
[SPEAKER_02]: He did say that in his outline almost all of season six would occur on the earth and the moon because the robots went there for safety.
[SPEAKER_02]: There would be two robot factions, anti-human and pro-human.
[SPEAKER_02]: He pointed out that the existence of Earth has been redacted from all galaxy records that Earth is radioactive, but there are still humans living there in what Goyer calls a medieval state.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, can I just put it aside and here is a medievalist?
[SPEAKER_02]: Stop using that as a negative adjective.
[SPEAKER_02]: A medieval period produced some of the finest art, some of the finest theology, some of the finest music,
[SPEAKER_02]: There weren't awful lot of really good systems going and there were also some really dreadful ones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Debubonic plague kind of mess it all up, but let's just drop that as a negative people because if you think so then you really don't know enough of that, you'll hear it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, the Earth that we saw in the final scene of season three was the Earth that it already even lasted.
[SPEAKER_02]: where also if you used to say anything about dimmer's else possible returning, though he did say some of those characters are for real dead.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now we can start running the books on which is who are the actual real dead ones or not if you want.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: and he expressed his gratitude that the show has found an audience which has gone down some rabbit holes, both real and not real.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Mark Lee is a M-lives and he pointed out that season one was a harder lift because it had so much more information upload and very few plotlines.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he warned the execs about this at the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: when he was given the green light for season two, he also received more creative control and some easier characters to adapt from the story line.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that helped.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by that time, he also knew his actors and that also helped him in the writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he said season three had a very adaptable focus with a still greater understanding of characters on the part of the actors and cells, and so it allowed for more payoff of seasons one and two and was more satisfactory.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we brought that up already how season three was often reaching all the back to season one and everything's forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I thought they did it really masterfully.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really wove in the book.
[SPEAKER_00]: the book heavy plots with the more I don't want to say fan fiction, but the more show created plot lines.
[SPEAKER_00]: They really blow those together well and I give Goyer all credit for leading that effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: It really is top of the tree right now and leads the way for any other series and it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really wondering how I'm going to feel about watching rings of power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, new season, New season, it rings a power after this complete tour to force and just wonderful, wonderful example of the possible ways of doing this granted, you know, the Tolkien universe has a much larger and much more
[SPEAKER_02]: is much larger in the Tolkien universe than it is in the As a Muffin universe.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and as a Muffin, I was pumping out books, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this was a guy who was just constantly like, I got an idea, let's go, let's go.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Tolkien was like, I will wait 30 years to publish anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I will wait another 30 years, and I'll make my son do all the work of finishing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or something.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not precisely how it happened, but I, you know, I hear what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Christopher, for doing all that hard work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, bless you, bless you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think very insightful interview, and I would encourage people to go listen to it, you know, that definitely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for compiling that, but it sounds like a great interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go listen to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then after I listened to the wrap-up episode, I wanted to hear, um, they have another one I would say talked with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it Peter Peppers?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the name is Peter Pepper.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another podcaster who talks about things like Asimov.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I don't know nothing about him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, listeners, please don't add me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have limited brain span limited life span and limited time span.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really got a drill down and focus.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, we're going long for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Ruma, I'll just summarize him out quickly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ruma wrote in earlier in the season to let it, saying, let's listen to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, discussed foundation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Ruma.
[SPEAKER_00]: And wanted to let us know that that square was going to do this interview with the Balbo people.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, very cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that Goyer heard said that they were following his outline.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you for writing in Ruma and Marilyn did already listen in and thank you for the summary, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_02]: You, I must welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do a quick tour through spoiler corner and this is going to, uh, I want to say a couple things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had really just a couple things.
[SPEAKER_00]: I still think Magnificos of the Mule and I want to make my case here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Magnifico supposedly was taken in by the Mule, right, converted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And why would someone who's converted by the Mule be willing to obviously hurt the Mule with his business owner?
[SPEAKER_00]: He would have stopped immediately, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just don't, I don't buy that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't seem like from what we saw already that Gell was able to de-convert people.
[SPEAKER_00]: the one time she tried to that person died.
[SPEAKER_02]: And why, you know, there was Maggie right there in the vault with all of the, you know, dirty dozen minus seven, he could have just started playing at that point and converted them all there.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, a lot of time and energy and lives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, I don't, I don't think Bayt is the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe, maybe she is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's what Gordon was trying to say, but I kind of feel like he's doubling down.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and if you're this far, you know we're doing book spoilers.
[SPEAKER_00]: Magnificent with the mule in the box.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, I think that they can still do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, I won't be furious if they don't make Magnificent with the mule.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's their own show.
[SPEAKER_00]: They could change things.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of things have already been changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that if they stick with beta, it's done well, and it makes sense in the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes a little bit of sense now, but not enough for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I really think that everything was pointing towards Magnifico.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's the sort of thing where they worked it in as it were.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't flow naturally for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as I said, I loved her character so much, particularly her sympathy and her empathy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't see the mule being an empathetic.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, not at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: On the contrary.
[SPEAKER_00]: The mule is incredibly selfish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and incredibly self-centered, it's not, it's not, it's not data.
[SPEAKER_00]: It does, it does not track with that character so far.
[SPEAKER_00]: Unless this character is an incredible actor, and I'm not talking about the actor, but with the character, the character, the character.
[SPEAKER_00]: Incredible actor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't believe that that would have happened with no slips all season.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the way they love giving us tales for other things.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think if they really wanted to double down on Baytis, the meal, they should have given us some tells.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just like a few little slips of the empathy mask, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Of the empathy mask, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Whereas it just is it's full force and display all the while that Baytis is in sick bay with Dawn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So well, I've I've said my spoiler repeats.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't want to say much, but do you have any spoiler things you want to bring up that we haven't talked about already?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think so, John.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think we've mostly covered it in the goirs.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's mostly, it's mostly all about the meal at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because again, we're getting further and further away from original characters in the book.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's more and more latitude for them to to carry on with their
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... i guess just there's less material in the book to be more closely attached to i mean in the final books in the final book of the first trilogy uh... we have uh... another character who i did like very much was just the grand daughter of beta and torrent right okay to be a good meal though i think i think it's possible if i were to guess i would say that this season
[SPEAKER_00]: This next season is going to cover just the first half of the next book along with all of the things that they've set up with Empire, which is not at all in the books at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: So cover cover, they're going to cover the mule search for the second foundation, and I think it's going to lead him to Trent or just like it does in the books.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to cover whatever's happening with the robots, and it's going to cover whatever's happening with Empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think those three things are enough to fill up a season.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Lord, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I- And now I'm wondering if even going further down the line, you know, post-mule destruction, however they manage it, we, at some point, would get the destruction of trying to, itself, as a city world.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, the restoration of- So I wonder if they're going to go that route at all, be interesting to see if that's what they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Christina J wrote in one more time.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's our last piece of feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to start it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, enjoying your coverage, you two have balanced each other's perspectives, well, thank you, Christine, that I really appreciate that feedback because that's I think that's important in any podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm glad to know that we hit that balance.
[SPEAKER_02]: She continues, I have a cali question that I'm going to couch delicately, and so you've read more Miranda.
[SPEAKER_02]: It has more of an overarching result if it's true where the show could be heading.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Lordy, that's that's a really interesting out of correctness.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's assume it's as a mob.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's that ceiling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Lighting personality if it's not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she goes on.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you didn't read Pralod to Foundation, which I certainly have, I think you have too.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not.
[SPEAKER_02]: John?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you want to plug your ear?
[SPEAKER_02]: So do you care?
[SPEAKER_02]: Fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you didn't read Pralod to Foundation, just burn the C-mail.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, none of my iPad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But is it possible they could be utilizing Calay the way Cheddar home and played their role in Harry's plot?
[SPEAKER_02]: And if so, how would you feel about that concerning that the Demousel of it all?
[SPEAKER_02]: To stop there, I think they've already showed that to us in a sense, because of Harry sharing the primate with our Demousel, the serious Demousel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying, like, I know, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't read this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cheddar Hummin was the advisor to Harry, who was the advisor to Empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't think we're going to have that much more empire.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's he's in for?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they'll do some flashbacks, but I doubt it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as far as the dimmer's all with all goes, I think they're moving in the direction of our genial.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: If they still retain her and gosh, I hope they do.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I do not think you like this done.
[SPEAKER_02]: I really hope that she doesn't go away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also in episode nine of season two, did you catch when Demerzall said, I am a woman as that is what I am seen as now, or something that affects that I'm paraphrasing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think she's referring to, I think it was a scene between her and day, whether the young day of the old day, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: saying that because I am in a female form physically, I am a woman, which is an interesting side-track to take concerning, you know, that the...
[SPEAKER_02]: what is the origin of gender and a female feminine and, you know, was it the body, is it the person?
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and as well, imagine these characters, I mean, they were still, he couldn't stretch past people smoking cigarettes on spaceships, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you know, like, he's like ever, he's going to be smoking on spaceships.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, this really is, I think, more refined thinking about gender than some of ever reached.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no shade on him.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, you know, the entire time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all evolved.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We hadn't gone to intersectionality yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, let's just put it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just want to say shade on him for some gender stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he did have quite a lot of sexism going on, and rats have women, so there's some option to be no hero.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's some tires and stuff in the sequels I just mean in my life, too, as he was- Oh, absolutely, when he's real life, no, no, he's real life, but again, it keeps showing up.
[SPEAKER_00]: even in the things that he wrote in the in the 70s and the 80s and I'm working through the two sequel lines now and every so often I just go oh stop being as a mob let's let's go on with the story here i mean it's always amazing to me how far we've gotten in the last like 20 years even yeah because i i'm currently reading a manga that is 20 years old and man oh yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there some stuff that I'm going you wrote this yeah, I wrote this gender stuff in here, oh bad bad guys Do you think with that right exactly you write letters to your mother with that hand?
[SPEAKER_02]: nicely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you love your sister with that, Mike?
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, that's enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Going on, dusk doesn't intend to use that weapon, which means he absolutely will.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, I'm not sure I get the notion that he doesn't intend to use it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't remember.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he didn't
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that he didn't need to use it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, this was earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I think Christina said this earlier in the season.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it, but got it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it was so spoiler-y I saved it for the end part.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: Day, egging him further into analysis and made backfires.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's already threatened to get rid of his GF twice.
[SPEAKER_02]: His girlfriend, IE saw.
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone like that with a death bomb, this dangerous.
[SPEAKER_02]: No argument here.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see.
[SPEAKER_02]: As we have seen, that was a prophetic statement.
[SPEAKER_02]: Selden said he had secrets that Gail now knows and has known for four years and that alone is fascinating.
[SPEAKER_02]: Psycho histories always been about predictive species behavior, not individuals at all, and yet Harris last words are about recalling the people he lost and loved, and putting the last of those people at the epicenter of his new mass.
[SPEAKER_02]: And again, this is the whole tension of MoTree brought up throughout this series, right, individual versus group.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yes, the mathematics of it all has to work with large numbers.
[SPEAKER_02]: The eventual unfolding of it all relies upon individuals, which is remarkably similar in some ways to some theology, which I won't get into now because you guys have been listening to us
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, she goes on, Harry, after Yana felt far more justified for lack of a better word right now, in his work in Psycho History, but it struck me despite being the same man with the same flaws the skin in the game changed him.
[SPEAKER_02]: from emotionally distant from the outcome to protecting the outcome, I.E.Gale, if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it totally makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: I, yes, absolutely, makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: The mathematician struggling with the human as it were.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the series kind of bifurcated these two by giving us
[SPEAKER_02]: a electron hairy in the vault who remained and who interacted and it wasn't a series of recordings that Harry seldom made before he died hundreds of years earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that really shifts the dynamic.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yet recognizing, okay, we can keep having Harry in that context, but we still need a human being central to this whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's going to be gale and we're going to use cryopods and all that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I am glad they left us POV characters, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I just mentioned on the alien earth wrap up that we just posted.
[SPEAKER_00]: how cool would it be if we use some of these characters from Alien Earth and I won't spoil why they can do this, these characters from Alien Earth and then you watch a future series alien movie and one pops up and you go, wow, they've been all this time, and we can do that with some of these characters, the kinds of characters, so I think it's going to be very interesting to see and I think this is going to be, I think foundation can be started to trend with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she continues day over here looking like Jesus of Nazareth could that indicate a savior despite all desire to the contrary, or an image of the last portrait of a man before the slaughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as you said, this was written earlier.
[SPEAKER_02]: We now know that, yeah, that's a very good reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it tracks with everything that we've seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Both of them do both save your hand, you know, man before the slaughter.
[SPEAKER_02]: he manages to survive one version of the slaughter only to be killed by his brother.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yay, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I noticed the comments in the sky just as the second foundation fully comes into play.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not remembering that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when Harry died, quote unquote, and Gail started to walk alone, whereas for the rest of the world it would be an element of impending doom.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, let me give a little excursive
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's day.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to do the talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, we're going into old and middle English.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But in the day, we're going to talk with all this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry to interrupt.
[SPEAKER_02]: The word doom initially simply meant this is what's going to happen to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you're fortunate, if you will.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's come to have a very negative meaning.
[SPEAKER_02]: You are doomed to destruction, not you are doomed to be a brilliant mathematician.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, an o-wind of change in a comment I would definitely agree with.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was often interpreted in a negative way, but I don't know that in this context, I think it could be a sign of, you know, there's been a great change.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've lost Harry, the one who basically saved us and constructed this world
[SPEAKER_02]: And now that whole burden is passing on to his successor.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's a moment just change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it is an impending fate, if you will.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an impending next chapter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not necessarily, you know, end of the world as you know it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Although in some sense, as I suppose, you could argue it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, university getting reset really in power structures, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah, it's a huge doom that empire falls, but it's the doom of the galaxy as a whole and for many people that will be seen as a doom to celebrate and rejoice.
[SPEAKER_02]: A change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she ends, keep up the great work.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you very, very much.
[SPEAKER_02]: And sorry for any misspellings I didn't have time to reread.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boy, you're playing my song here, friend.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the number of times, I pushed sand on my emails and other texts that I've had to dictate before I give it a final proof over.
[SPEAKER_02]: If I had a dollar for every time that happened, wow, I'd be a lot wealthier than I already have.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, you know, not Jeff Bezos level, but anyway,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank you all for being with us for a lovely season of foundation, Maryland.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being my co-hosts for it all after David abandoned me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's such a delight, John.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for asking us.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always fun to record with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to do more.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to hear more Maryland, we are going to be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: some really in stories and yes I don't know Marilyn if you've had a chance to hear the alien earth rep of the just came out today but we discussed doing it earth sea so we're going to do it what a day still my heart we still my heart we're gonna finish up the earth sea series at least with the other wind and then and then Alicia is begging us to do some of the short stories at least too so that would be lovely but we'll see what we can do
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, at least the other one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's let's commit to that before we.
[SPEAKER_00]: I said what I'll let's court stories with you once the other wins out.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not but some with anything else until I really see other went from.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you could check out Marilyn on there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can also check our Marilyn on rings and rituals where you can catch up with season one of rings of power coverage with Marilyn and Dr. Sarah Brown examining the rituals through rings of power.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and then you'll be doing rings of power season two once season three
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, even before that, I mean, we got to start recording sometime early in next year, and you know, just kind of accumulate from there, planning to start dropping them in time to work right up to, oh, and tomorrow night is episode one.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very good of the new season.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got more affiliates going on.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got never mind the music.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just hit their one year anniversary.
[SPEAKER_00]: They finished their first season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can check out on this feed and interview the David deal with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really lovely interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was listening to it earlier.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, about their podcasting journey, what they learned from season one, what they plan to do in season two.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, really great conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out their feed.
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these are in the
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... radioactive rambling i just saw they posted something earlier today but i didn't see what it was yet but i'm gonna go on the podcast app right now and find out that it was the boys gen v season two episodes one through four so half i think of the season of gen v which is the boys spent off so go check out that review and i know they're gonna be back in December with all out uh... so if you're on the boys if you're on gen v go and listen to that you can also listen to
[SPEAKER_00]: wolf shift dust and the store works can't tell my podcast for more Alicia like i mentioned earlier i'm going to be on that feed on the wolf shift us feed talking about frankenstein yeah with elisha and john we're bringing back the nose for auto crew to talk about another monster and it's going to be it's going to be great time we're new geomro del Toro's frankenstein which is just coming out soon uh and then of course check out everything else on the lower house feed we just wrapped up alien earth
[SPEAKER_00]: Alicia, John, and Aaron from Radioactive Remlins are all doing, um, what are they doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: Peace maker.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't, it's too late, Marilyn.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't remember everything that's I couldn't agree more.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't even mention properly Howard, which I have to mention who who did showed up on a couple alien earth episodes and Steven Anthony.
[SPEAKER_00]: They also on their feed did a feedback.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of alien earth and, yeah, fun.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, that's all I have bandwidth to talk about tonight.
[SPEAKER_00]: very clearly let's just do our thank you's which are our discord server boosters Aaron Kay to live a thriller do 71 Athena a listoo nancy m goes to partition radioactive ram radioactive ritchard can't talk anymore what's going on
[SPEAKER_00]: Adrienne, and our lore masters, Samarshan Michael G. Michelle E. Brian P. S. C. Peter O'H.
[SPEAKER_00]: Adam S. Nancy M. Duv 71.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brian 863.
[SPEAKER_00]: Frederick H. Sarah L. Garth C. Matthew M. Sarah M. Andre B. Quang New
[SPEAKER_00]: Kathy W. Lestu, Jeffrey B. Eliseo, Neil F. Benby, Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Collie S. Ilmariel, forward slash to him, Paul K. Bobby C. Rockizim, Jessica H. Redzibby, the TCS and Mixie, last but not least, Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_02]: What a mighty chorus, my goodness.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So much, everybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what helps us do these late night podcasts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you do these full seasons with wrap ups and everything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank you very much for being here with us on another season.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we hope you'll join us for the next, the next battle shows.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, indeed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, folks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good night.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Lower Hound's podcast is produced in public by the Lower Hound's.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can send questions and feedback and voicemails at the Lower Hound's.com slash contact.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Any opinions stated are ours personally and do not reflect the opinion of or belong to any employers or other entities.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.