[SPEAKER_05]: Consider this folks, you remember the movie ET?
[SPEAKER_05]: You remember the moment on a screen or when some candy was handed by the boy to the extra-dressual, what was that candy?
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you know that?
[SPEAKER_05]: There was about five seconds or less on that screen where that took place.
[SPEAKER_05]: The sale of racist pieces went through the roof.
[SPEAKER_05]: What you saw influenced behavior?
[SPEAKER_05]: Now if that occurs from five seconds on the screen, what effect does the Texas chain saw massacre have on young people who happened to be vulnerable to that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Baby, ain't nobody safe In the Bible, oh, in the Bible, oh, yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: happy Halloween everybody consider this a bit of a treat episode here.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a bonus outside the normal episodes I usually do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're new to the show I am a former fundamentalist who sheds light on the dark side of the church from the pulpits to the pews.
[SPEAKER_00]: Typically this is cases of abuse, a generally sexual abuse within a fundamentalist conservative Christian circles.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sometimes stems into financial mismanagement and abuse and other, you know, high control religious tactics that are incredibly harmful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then sometimes there's episodes like this one that are just totally unexpected.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it was like a week and a half ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: that this even came into my mind is an idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is a kind of last minute episode that I was like, this would be an interesting one to kind of point out as an odd curiosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the way that this all happened and I wrote it down so I can remember the timeline of events.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very weird the way this played out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm a huge horror fan, I love and to be very clear, not a big true crime fan, I'm a big fictional horror fan, so I love me a good slasher movie, I love, you know, I just love the horror genre and all that's different flavors.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're watching this right now,
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me know if you two are a horror fan and drop the name of your favorite horror movie in the comments.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I am a massive horror fan, and when I saw the trailer for Ryan Murphy's series monster, the Edging story, I was really intrigued.
[SPEAKER_00]: It looked really good, at least from the trailer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I started watching the series and I ended up bailing on it a few episodes and I pushed further than I really wanted to But I was hoping maybe it would go somewhere that was good, but I tapped out because it was thoroughly inaccurate and beyond just being inaccurate.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was inaccurate in a way that was
[SPEAKER_00]: Disrespectful to the subject material.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just completely inappropriate handling of the true story and Beyond just the way it handles a gain story the way it tied into things like the lives of filmmaker Toby Huber and Particularly the way it handled the life of Anthony Perkins.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought was beyond the pale just so disrespectful to the real people
[SPEAKER_00]: and made me feel disgusted in a way that I haven't really felt since the movie blonde came out recently about Marilyn Monroe and where it's just the worst possible example of taking a true story and just exploiting it in a really horrific way.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, it's like 830 I'm editing this right now and I need to be clear because I didn't say it when I was set up with the professional and go on to censoring this here.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't bother me that films like Blonde or the series like the Edguine story are going to show some things that are, you know, not particularly positive and they're going to show characters going through things that they really experienced.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: that assigns motivations to people that didn't exist, like the example of Anthony Perkins and the Eguine series and some of the storyline there, or in the case of blonde, where they attribute thoughts or actions or experiences to male and row that are just completely untrue, like they are just provably false, and that bothers me a lot.
[SPEAKER_00]: And these are two of the most egregious examples I've seen in pop culture history, especially in the last,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, decade or so.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like blonde, there's some things in it that are really incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of the effects are really incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: The cinematography is really neat.
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the performances are really good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like blonde, I think, on a day our moss did a great job playing relevant row.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was beautifully shot, it recreated some incredible details, but the script itself and some of the things that they really focused on, I felt was extremely, extremely bad taste.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I bounced out of monster, I was really bothered by that show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And after that, I went ahead and stumbled into the John Wayne Gacy series Devil in Disguise on Peacock, and I mean, by contrast, it, I mean, what monster was versus what devil in disguise was, I mean, they're a night and day different.
[SPEAKER_00]: devil in disguise is one of the greatest series that I've watched in a really long time and I told to make that the guy that plays a gentleman gasey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me look up his name really quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: Michael Chernis, I hope I'm exactly that plays gentleman gasey.
[SPEAKER_00]: I told somebody recently it's probably one of my top five performances in a biographical piece.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is absolutely incredible and I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: I've watched a lot about John Wayne Gacy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not a big true creme person, but that's one story that I was really fascinating by and I've watched a lot about and I have never seen someone portray a character where I'm, you know, people talk about like getting lost in the role or like, oh, it's like they actually went back and filmed it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he is incredible as John Wayne Gacy and beyond that, I felt like the show was incredibly respectful in the way it dealt with the true story.
[SPEAKER_00]: highly accurate from everything that I've read about it, you know, obviously there's some things you change around for television, but just absolutely phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so as I was watching that series, you know, one of the things that was interesting to me is like, I was going while he nailed John Wayne Gacy in the way that John Wayne Gacy talked and acted, and then there was a lot of clamour online about Charlie Hunnam's portrayal of Ed Geen and like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Why did he do his voice like that?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's really very few recordings of Ed Geen that the public can listen to.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're measuring it again, something that's, you know, it's hard to get a full grasp on how Ed Geen sounded.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, apparently Charlie Hunnam was able to go back and listen to recordings that aren't publicly available and bases voice on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know one way or another.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought Charlie Hunnam's voice was fine in monster and it worked for what the series was.
[SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't a low light for me as opposed to some of the things with the script, um, but yeah, I started seeing that and went, okay, how many serial killers or like people, you know, Ted Bundy, John McGasey, Edgain, you know, down the list of people, what serial killers do we have the most
[SPEAKER_00]: audio recordings of.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like who of the most interviews recorded, where there's like a lot of them, both like showing how they talk and communicate, but also just like discussing their crimes.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a really interesting, because the interesting rabbit trail I found myself on late at night.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I start going down the line.
[SPEAKER_00]: and one of the first names that popped up in the list of people who had the most recording.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then was Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I started going down that rabbit hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by pure chance, I clicked on the final interview with Ted Bundy or something like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some title like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: and it cut to the interviewer and my job dropped because I recognized the interviewer as James Thompson.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so for those of you that aren't familiar with who James Thompson is, I mean, I've covered him a little bit on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you listen to my conversation with Marissa Frank's Bert and Kelsey McGinnis, but which I actually have,
[SPEAKER_00]: Which actually happened to have their book right here.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were at a book called The Myth of Good Christian Parenting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had them on the show a couple of months ago, and we talked a lot about Dobson.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was a psychologist and, you know, evangelical leader.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the founder of Focus on the Family.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a pretty controversial figure.
[SPEAKER_00]: He advocated for the breaking of the will of children through corporate punishment.
[SPEAKER_00]: supported conversion therapy and preach to a lot of really sexist ideology and just I mean there's plenty you could dive into but yeah dobson is a figure that I've not covered in a positive light when he's come up on the show and I just thought if I didn't know
[SPEAKER_00]: this little tidbit about Ted Bundy that Dobson was the one who did the last ever interview with him just hours before he was put to death in the electric chair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe a lot of people my audience don't as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought I would just do a little bonus episode and talk about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is not a step by step analysis of that actual interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are experts I'm sure they could do.
[SPEAKER_00]: in-depth body movement analysis and pick apart every word.
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, this is truly just a curiosity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the way this kept snowballing was, I watched the entire interview with Dobson and Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched like an 40 minute or 30 minute presentation Dobson gave about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched him interviews on some news programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I ended up watching a couple of films about Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: tear, just going through a bunch of content about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the sum of the cross, I watched the Zek Efron take on Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I watched the, the one from the director, Freeway.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just called Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I watched the film No Man of God directed by Amber Seely, it incredibly directed by Amber Seely.
[SPEAKER_00]: I should say, and starring Elijah Wood and Luke Kirby, which I thought was absolutely incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: and that film in particular stands out and I do recommend if you have not seen it it's streaming on to be for free so you can go over to to be and watch it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I also rented it for myself on video for like $1.99 or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Go watch that movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is absolutely incredible and one of the things that stands out in addition to Luke Kirby giving one of the best performances of Ted Bundy you'll ever see on film in Elijah Wood giving an all-timer as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: is there's extended scenes featuring James Dobson and the whole circus happening around that time when Dobson did that interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems like all of that is very accurate based on some conversations I've had and like the research that I've done.
[SPEAKER_09]: You are guilty of killing many women and girls, is that correct?
[SPEAKER_06]: Yes, that's true.
[SPEAKER_09]: Ted, how did it happen?
[SPEAKER_09]: Take me back, so much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain, there's so many people.
[SPEAKER_09]: Where did it start?
[SPEAKER_09]: How did this moment come about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Which leads me to the next part of this big old snowball that just kept happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: I started looking up Ted Bundy experts because I was like, I want to talk about this on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate talking about topics where I am not an expert, which is almost all of them that I cover on the show.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I reached out or I started Googling who are the most respected Ted Bundy experts.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the name that kept coming up over and over again was Kevin and Sullivan, and Kevin is a really fascinating person.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or actually I've got a list about my show notes from when I interviewed him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kevin is a American true crime author, journalist and speaker, best known for his extensive work on the life in crimes of Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Born in 1961, Sullivan has written several prominent books about Bundy, including the Bundy murders, the trail of Ted Bundy, and Ted Bundy's murderous mysteries.
[SPEAKER_00]: His research is considered by many to be among the most thorough, and he has been consulted as an expert about Bundy's psychology.
[SPEAKER_00]: biography and case history on numerous media platforms, including Real's Ted Bundy serial monster and TV miniseries, Ted Bundy survivors.
[SPEAKER_00]: His background encompasses roles as a pastor, private investigator, and crime historian.
[SPEAKER_00]: He offers it insights into the workings of serial killers, often drawn on interviews,
[SPEAKER_00]: police records and survivor accounts, and as Bookster cited his foundational text for Bundy researchers and fans of True Crime Literature, he's also known for participating in various documentaries and podcasts contributing through commentary on both the criminal mind and the cultural impacts of infamous cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kevin's name came up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I reached out to him the next day.
[SPEAKER_00]: He got a response.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was open to doing a conversation with me and we scheduled it and we recorded on I want to say Tuesday of this week.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Thursday, October 30th as I'm recording this intro right now and you're listening to this on the 31st.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's been a whirlwind.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kevin was so gracious.
[SPEAKER_00]: I sat down with him for about an hour and 45 minutes, probably closer to two hours all together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And just asked him every burning question that I had left over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I forgot to mention also part of the snowball.
[SPEAKER_00]: I downloaded Kevin's first book as an audiobook and listened to the entire thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like I just threw myself into this in a really.
[SPEAKER_00]: wild way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as so much of burning questions, I will release the full hour and 45 minute conversation with a Kevin on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can go to patreon.com slash preacher voice to hear the entire thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're like, I don't want to spend money on Patreon.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't blame you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to release the full hour and 45 minute interview publicly on feeds in a couple of weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just if you want early access.
[SPEAKER_00]: consider it a fast pass to that content.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel always kind of weird like completely paywalling stuff like that so it won't be long-term but if you want early access to that and tons of other content, patreon.com slash preacher boys.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway in this particular episode listening right now I'm going to specifically share some snippets from our conversation about Dobson himself and then obviously there's a bunch more that we talked about that you can hear about later.
[SPEAKER_00]: But for this episode, we're focused on Dobson.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, this is not a play by play of everything set in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a couple of curious pieces of this puzzle that make for really fascinating story and part of Evangelical History, but also serial killer history and just an interesting wrinkle in this true crime story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's a couple of things that are relevant to this story.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the first question, obviously, when you see dops and sitting down with the first really official serial killer that we label a serial killer, Ted Bundy, your immediate question is,
[SPEAKER_00]: how do these two end up in a room together?
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, this is a piece that I've heard a lot of different layers to and it's the first question that I asked Kevin and Sullivan about.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't cover this in your first book in in great detail, but I'm curious, you know, what that
[SPEAKER_00]: how that came about, who floated that conversation happening in the first part.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard that Bundy specifically asked for Dobson.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard that Dobson reached out and pushed his way in for the media.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard that John Tanner arranged this, like who coordinated this conversation?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, it could have been Tanner because he was working with Tanner.
[SPEAKER_01]: who was a minister, and Tanner's wife was there too, and she's, so they worked, you know, bunny work with him, but it had one thing, the only thing I was able to discover about that, it was Bundy's final decision that he wanted to do it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So one of the names I mentioned in the question asked him was John Tanner.
[SPEAKER_00]: John Tanner was a prosecutor who defended Ted Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: in his final trial, and Tanner had previously served as Bundy's like prayer partner in the prison ministry for a few years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was actually part of the Mormon Church.
[SPEAKER_00]: For those you don't know, Bundy was baptized into the Mormon Church later on in his life when he was in Utah involved in some of the killings there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then once he was in prison, he made his conversion to a more evangelical, like generic version of Christianity, or at least his
[SPEAKER_00]: But, yeah, John Tanner was likely one of the people who, you know, kind of got dops in on Bundy's mind, and then Bundy started corresponding with dops in according to dops, and for quite a while with letters, and then decided to write him specifically to have an interview with him.
[SPEAKER_06]: Many of the, uh,
[SPEAKER_06]: But members of the press have said that they felt he was doing a con job to the end.
[SPEAKER_06]: Did you ever have any suspicion that he was calling you, that he was lying to you, that he was using you in some way, that wasn't clearly expressed in your previous communication?
[SPEAKER_05]: I didn't think that then and I don't believe that now.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have correspondence, direct correspondence between the two of us that goes back to August of last year.
[SPEAKER_05]: He sent me in the 11 page letter in August.
[SPEAKER_05]: The theme of that letter was his concern about violent pornography.
[SPEAKER_05]: He had read the reports, he knew the scientific studies.
[SPEAKER_05]: He was very informed on that subject because he felt that it had destroyed his life.
[SPEAKER_05]: are contributed to the destruction of his life, but also resulted in the death of many innocent people.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there was a consistent pattern, every letter that he sent me focused on that issue.
[SPEAKER_05]: So there wasn't anything strange that happened in that last interview a few hours before he's dead.
[SPEAKER_06]: So you feel it was, in fact, the last on the statements of a condemned man.
[SPEAKER_05]: Brian, the best answer to that question, will come from watching the video.
[SPEAKER_05]: Listen to the man's voice.
[SPEAKER_05]: Look into his eyes and draw your own conclusions.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's obvious.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, Kevin is somebody that's been studying Bundy for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's written 1500 plus pages of material on Bundy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Spend a lot of time talking about him researching him getting to dive into his psychology.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I had to ask him,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we know how this conversation happened sort of.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know what the reason was kind of supposed to be But I asked him a little bit about why he thinks Bundy did this as a young minister another writer back then the first thing that I thought Because I've been reading about true crime since I was 10 years old was oh, Bundy's snowing dobs and he's he's a boy and smoke
[SPEAKER_01]: this isn't real.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, all bun these friends who heard some of the things that buddy said, Oh, that's a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, when he talked about hard pornography, changing him and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_08]: As a young boy, and I mean the boy of 12, 13, certainly.
[SPEAKER_08]: that I encountered outside the home again now in the local grocery store, the local drug store, the soft corponography, what people call soft corp, but as I think I explained you last night Dr. Dobson in an anecdote that as young boys do we explore the the back roads and sideways
[SPEAKER_08]: the garbage and whatever they're cleaning out of the house.
[SPEAKER_08]: And from time to time, we come across a photographic books of a harder nature than more of a graphic.
[SPEAKER_08]: You might say it more explicit nature than we would encounter.
[SPEAKER_08]: Let's say in your local grocery store, my experience with a saponography, generally, but with pornography that deals on a violent level with the sexuality, is it
[SPEAKER_08]: Once you become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of addiction.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like other kinds of addiction, of addiction you keep, I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic science of material.
[SPEAKER_08]: like an addiction, you keep craving something which is harder, harder, something which which gives you a greater sense of excitement.
[SPEAKER_08]: Until you reach the point where the panography only goes so far.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any kind of pornography will take a young man who views it and he wants to have sex with females.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just, yeah, I mean, they said go, then that's great, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't lead people.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it just doesn't have the power to transfer.
[SPEAKER_01]: That kind of stuff to make money, what he was, was Bundy's internalization of violence from the time he was young.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he himself told Ron Holmes, the late Ron Holmes criminologist here in Louisville, known all over the United States.
[SPEAKER_01]: I started finding these when I was 14, these detective magazines.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember the detective magazines.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were all over, there were five or six of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had been started in the 1940s.
[SPEAKER_01]: They continued for many, many, many years after funding, and then they're all gone today, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you'd go in a store, I'd see it with my friends, big, breast of good looking women, a drawing of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: She but she's got a rope around their neck or a knife as pointed at her.
[SPEAKER_01]: were a gun and I would think, wow, the lady looks great, but what's up with this violent stuff with her?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so anyways, I got over, I had a case in the reader couple of these, they had some really interesting articles, but I never subscribed to them or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Bundy said, those made a real impression on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And later, he told Bill Haguemeyer, he would work out some of the fantasies that he's seen in these magazines with the victims.
[SPEAKER_01]: And more than hard pornography, it was, he was really turned on with things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when they found the stolen VW that he had been in, during his escape to Florida before he was arrested, it had a, did it have a Hustle magazine?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it had a cheerleader magazine of like 12, 13, 14-year-old girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why,
[SPEAKER_01]: But he killed more than 30.
[SPEAKER_01]: We know he did.
[SPEAKER_01]: He himself alluded to it in a tape confession long before the end of life confessions right at the end before he was executed, which I must say during those, he was trying to be extremely honest during the end of life confession.
[SPEAKER_01]: End of life, like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Manhouse week of people coming this afternoon out and like I say on top of that Mike Richard came back to see him just by himself and he he gave Mike And it all appeared in my book brand new information about what he had done the Karen Campbell.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you have thought about it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Things like that and and Too bad he was able to destroy these because we uh, but he had taken Polaroys of his victims
[SPEAKER_01]: prior to their death, acting out some of these scenes that he had seen in like detective magazines and then after death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he had those in Utah in the utility room like downstairs in the utility room on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a second floor apartment.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was the utility room was a section that was on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, but the bottom line is, when the assertive's apartment, they took everything they thought was important.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he got out on bail, he told Haymeyer, he said, I took those and I've destroyed them.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what would be important to have them is you might find some pictures of women on there that are not known.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you know, even if you could know who they are, but they never talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He admitted to Bob Campbell for Washington State.
[SPEAKER_01]: I killed 11, but he only gave the names of eight.
[SPEAKER_01]: He admitted to Dennis Couch, Jerry, by that time, Jerry Tom, so I think was retired or not retired, but we assigned to something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he told the, you called Detective Dennis Couch, he had killed eight in Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't give more than the names of five.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we know he took some things to his grave.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what that might be?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what he admitted to on one of these tapes, not at the end of life, but like when he was talking to Steve Michelle or somebody else, because there was other people than interviewed him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said,
[SPEAKER_01]: That this person, he was speaking the third person, I was responsible for either half a dozen or a dozen deaths of like pre-teen girls or young girls.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, Bundy didn't like to talk about anybody that he murdered, that was really young.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although he had to talk to the Idaho detectors about Lynette Culver, that's another one of the things that found that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Several things knew that never been published before.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was out of Idaho, but she was 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: And his last victim, Kim Leach, out of Florida, where he naps around Lake City, Florida, she was 12.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he had to talk about, he didn't talk about Kim Leach because he wasn't going to give the detectors down there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Any information on that, he knew we was going to trials and stuff like that, but even at the end of life
[SPEAKER_01]: But he did talk about Calber who, again, was 12 years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he didn't, I believe he probably killed some 10-year-olds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I studied a lot of murders and missing females in the surrounding states during the time that Bundy was active in those states.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I came across some things that have the ammo of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It might not be.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we'll never know for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what we do know he admitted the killing more than he admitted to by name.
[SPEAKER_01]: So likely those are young girls rather than women because he didn't see may have too much or a problem talk about the women he killed that were 18 and over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, one of the things that really is frustrating about this conversation is it's so clear to me that, you know, like Kevin said, bunnies blowing a lot of smoke care and it's very clear that he's latched on to exactly what dobsomones to hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think in my opinion, he kind of obviously skates his own responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: And redirects all of the blame onto other things, onto alcohol, onto soft core pornography, onto hard core pornography, and really is just pouring into dopsons like kind of moral majority approach to these topics.
[SPEAKER_00]: And giving dopsons exactly what wants to hear dopson is asking very leading questions throughout this interview.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when Dobson does ask some questions that start to actually dig into the actual crimes that Bundy committed, specifically he asks about Kimberly Leach, who was the 12-year-old victim that was the last one Bundy killed before being arrested for the final time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in that moment, Bundy says, you know, I don't want to talk about it, kind of looks down like he's getting emotional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a moment in that clip that just,
[SPEAKER_00]: So unsettling to me, we're kind of looks up to Dobson, like, is he still going with this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is he buying this?
[SPEAKER_07]: One of the final murders that you committed, of course, was apparently a little Kimberly late 12 years of age.
[SPEAKER_07]: I think the public outcry is greater there because an innocent child was taken from a playground.
[SPEAKER_07]: What did you see to that?
[SPEAKER_07]: What was there?
[SPEAKER_07]: You're there, they are normally motions three days later.
[SPEAKER_07]: Where were you, Tia?
[SPEAKER_07]: I...
[SPEAKER_08]: I can really talk about that right now.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's... Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's too painful.
[SPEAKER_08]: I would like to...
[SPEAKER_08]: I'd like to be able to convey to you what that...
[SPEAKER_08]: that an experience is like, but I can't, I won't, I can't let talk about that, okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: I can't begin to understand, well, I can try, but I'm aware that I can't begin to understand the pain
[SPEAKER_08]: and these young women and I are armed to feel.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I can't restore it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Really much to them if anything.
[SPEAKER_08]: And we'll pretend to, and I don't even expect them to forgive me and then I'm asking for it that kind of forgiveness is of God.
[SPEAKER_08]: And if they have it, they don't well, maybe they'll fight at some day.
[SPEAKER_08]: Do you deserve the punishment, the status, inflicted upon you?
[SPEAKER_08]: Ah, that's a very good question.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'll answer very, very honestly, I don't want to die.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not going to kid you.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'll kid you not.
[SPEAKER_08]: I deserve certainly the little extreme punishment.
[SPEAKER_08]: Society has, and I deserve, I think society deserves we protected from me and from others like me.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's for sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think what I hope will come of our discussion is I think society deserves to be protected from itself because as we've been talking, there are forces that loosen in this country particularly, again, this kind of violent pornography on the one hand, well-meaning these
[SPEAKER_08]: of it had Bundy while they're walking past a magazine rack for the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted Bundy's.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's the irony.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just so clear to me that he's like kind of manipulative in the way he's talking to Dobson and Kevin said that's kind of like par for the course for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, in the course for conversation, to go full circle with what I was saying at the beginning, I asked a couple of questions, and there's some more in the extended version of this conversation, like I talked about, which actor do you think best portrayed Bundy and things like that?
[SPEAKER_00]: But I unprompted Kevin brought up the movie No Man of God and he talks about, again, kind of the circus of those last few days of Bundy,
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, in a couple of things that have come up since where people go, if Bundy had lived longer, do you think it would have confessed to more, you know, how much is accurate about like the way a film like No Man I've got depicts those final days, you know, how upset where people with Thompson and, you know, Kevin kind of shared his take on that based on his research.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people say, couldn't we have gotten more information now at Bundy?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: in like a third person accounts.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think really you've got just about everything that you were gonna get from him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was he ever gonna tell you the names if you knew them?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or by the way, you mentioned the programs, I've seen a lot of these by the movies.
[SPEAKER_01]: They got a lot of pluses and lots of minuses.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you haven't seen the movie, no man of God,
[SPEAKER_00]: you must have you seen it it's one of the three that I watch and it is by far the best in terms of the actor portraying Bundy nailing it and just as a film that is respectful of the as respectful as you can be covering the material and a fictional way like I think it's phenomenal and I second the recommendation it's a it's a fantastic film
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and people need to realize when they're hearing that, the main actor, oh, what's his name?
[SPEAKER_01]: He played, he played Hague Mire.
[SPEAKER_01]: He lives in Austin, a legend would.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: A legend would spend a lot of time with Bill Hague Mire.
[SPEAKER_01]: When either of you Bill Hague Mire, there was nothing I didn't ask him that he didn't answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: He spent a lot of time with him, hey, Mark gave him tapes, hey, Mark gave him other information.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm telling you, several things came out during that that he got this information, there was nothing made up.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got this information directly from Bill Eggmire.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll mention a couple of them here.
[SPEAKER_01]: One was he, when Bill asked him how many are there, he said, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how many I killed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all kind of blend together.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he admitted to having at least several who like he ready to do his thing on them, maybe choked him out in the unconsciousness and they woke up and maybe a couple of them got away in the woods.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said I was getting my tools out of the car while she's like lying down on the ground and she woke up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said the ones that got away
[SPEAKER_01]: I would go, I would leave and I'd be worried.
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they going to say something or are they going to identify me?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: So he got information that, I mean, after I heard what came out, I said, wow, I should've spent more time asking Bill information because he told me a lot of interesting stuff, but like I say, that is the most accurate movie I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I was told by somebody who knows,
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, did you ask, you know, my show, how he felt about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, yeah, I didn't he said, I couldn't believe he said, I look like he was sitting there with Ted, buddy, just like what I used to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, it was amazing and very, very, very accurate.
[SPEAKER_12]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I have to hand it to Elijah Wood for doing it right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the attribute played, actually, they got, actually, they got one thing wrong.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think they just added it and I think there's something in the opening credits that speaks of just adding something or whatever, but when they say that the murder of Lynette Culver when he's confessing and he said I drown in the bathtub.
[SPEAKER_01]: that is not in the record.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got that, if nowhere in the confession, I got that information from Russ Bruno, the Idaho investigator, no, from Mike Fisher, he had been told that by Russ Bruno, I called Russ, he said, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and, uh, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, so when I contacted, contacted Bill Eggmire, who said, you know, on every confession, when he ever made, he said, I don't recall that at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, he said, Kevin, you do know when he had an M.O.
[SPEAKER_01]: of strangling the women from behind while having sex with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, yes, I know that that was is normal in all.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, I have a lot of respect for the detective who told you that, which originally was Mike Fisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I don't remember him saying anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't say anything like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why they found out this information because if you read the transcript of the confession of the Idaho confession, two things are going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they only have an hour, really fast back and forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Idaho hitchhiker that he killed on the way to law school on September 2nd.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was the first person to identify that he actually left on the second that it was Memorial Day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think his girlfriend thought he left on the third and most authors say left in early September, but I was able to narrow it down to the second of September.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then also not just her, but the killing of this 12-year-old Kim Leach.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, when they talked about the hitchhiker, there was cranial damage.
[SPEAKER_01]: they had said in the interview that on the it said well what was a cranial damage with covers and he said something like no it would be drowning well because he had said he put it again the uh like a river five miles north of polka tellow which would be the snake river they assumed it was that's how she drowned but
[SPEAKER_01]: But the Idaho investigator, Russ Renaud, being a smart guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: As he walked out of it, and Blundy, it said, look, an hour after Passover, an hour is not enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you have any additional questions, I'll try to work you in, being really cooperative and honest.
[SPEAKER_01]: As they walked out of the hospital, he said, Renaud said, hey, Randy is co-investigator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Randy Everett, could you go back in and ask Blundy, he said, she drowned, but he never said,
[SPEAKER_01]: even though he said he put her in the river.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Randy goes back in and I talked to Randy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said this exactly what that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I like to ask Bundy a couple more questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: They put him in a room, 20 minutes later, 15 minutes later, they brought Bundy in.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no Bill Hague Marta be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no attorney of his to be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he just asked him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, you said she'd run, she'd drown.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you never said how that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, oh, well, I drowned her in the bathtub and then every didn't even ask him whether I'm about to say, of his own volition, he said, oh, and I had sex with her after she was dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he didn't like to talk about the necrophilia.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would hand in it with Bob Kappel, but he said, so I drowned her in the bathtub.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I called Hague Myer one day, and that's a bill.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting ready to write the story of Lenette Culver.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had the case file coming to me, but didn't have it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I said, Bill, the only thing I know about this kid is that she was 12 and Bundy, you know, Goddard and Kilger, and drowler in the bathtub of the holiday in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, Bogatello.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where Bill said, well, that's news to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he said, well, you know, you should go back and find out about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, if I find anything different at the time, I'm the novice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Bill said, you know, I thought, maybe they're wrong about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I go back and I finally talk to everyone and Russ Renaud.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, Russ, first thing Russ said to me, here's why Bill doesn't know it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because he wasn't in the meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a special meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had to contact Bill back.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why, I emailed him and said, oh, yeah, it's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's, here's why, true.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here's what, what, what Randy Everett said.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at the movie, it opens up, I'm saying, it like he did that in no.
[SPEAKER_01]: You did not, that was all back story stuff that I was able to, I mean, these detectives.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it was the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's written about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the screenplay, they just condensed all the information.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just condensed true information delivered in a way that was different than that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's similar to Gacy's series has something like that where his lawyer, I'm blanking on the name.
[SPEAKER_00]: here's the scene where he comes out and he tells the two police that are waiting outside his office when Gacy's originally confessing to the attorney and this first time the information's ever coming out and he comes to and then Gacy's drunk and falls asleep on the couch and he comes down and says if he tries to leave in the morning before I talk to you like shoot his tires out.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought it was a dramatized line in the show and then I was just hitting every with the lawyer and he said oh, that was my I think it was like his co-count or somebody that was present that's not in the fictional show at all they just gave his lines to him and so it's like true, but it's a slightly, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: having talked to Bill Hagmeyer, every interview was going through him that was involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know that's accurate, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he was the one problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he had to sit it on all of these.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, that's because that's because Buddy asked him to.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he would only talk of Bill was there, which is the interesting dynamic.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: I, in the movie, it makes a big to do about the Dobson conversation happening without Bill being involved.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's the schedule
[SPEAKER_04]: You have a very like day.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, Donson, you won't be needed for that.
[SPEAKER_11]: All of the interviews are supposed to go through me.
[SPEAKER_04]: All the law enforcement interviews would be scheduled through you, and they were.
[SPEAKER_11]: What the heck are you trying to pull here?
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm just trying to give my client a chance to tell a side of the story.
[SPEAKER_11]: You think Docsson will petition the governor for a stand-up season?
[SPEAKER_04]: Docsson is a very well-connected man.
[SPEAKER_11]: We said no media.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he knows the rules.
[SPEAKER_04]: He just wants to talk to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Ted will tell him what he wants to do.
[SPEAKER_11]: He wants a poster ball.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we'll give it to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: Docsson, this is Special Agent Bill Hadmire.
[SPEAKER_09]: Special Agent, Doc.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's good to meet you.
[SPEAKER_09]: I've heard a lot about you.
[SPEAKER_09]: You're doing the Lord's work here.
[SPEAKER_10]: We've done what we can.
[SPEAKER_10]: We still have a lot of investigators left to squeeze him.
[SPEAKER_10]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_10]: Well, your two hours are coming down.
[SPEAKER_09]: Carolyn, I'm going to check on our setup.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think I'm going to be subject to drink.
[SPEAKER_09]: I see that light.
[SPEAKER_10]: It was rude.
[SPEAKER_10]: How long of an interview can you get with all the setup?
[SPEAKER_04]: The setup doesn't count.
[SPEAKER_10]: What do you mean it doesn't count?
[SPEAKER_04]: This is a real production.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't just point a camera and shoot.
[SPEAKER_04]: How long?
[SPEAKER_04]: We have seven hours blocked.
[SPEAKER_04]: Seven hours?
[SPEAKER_00]: Was that dramatized?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you talk to Bill about like, was he, since he was going?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or was that,
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but I know some of the other investigators were, uh, I think a little perturbed because of how much time they were given, uh, seven hours or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And really, and really, I just want to say this, I think Dopson was trying to put what he believed was the nail in the coffin.
[SPEAKER_01]: of pornography.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and if you do this, you're going to end up killing women and cutting their heads off and having sex with them after you're dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after they're dead, of course, this is not true, but that's sometimes people want to validate their own belief about something, and I think that
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm glad he did the interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad it exists.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad Bundy shows himself that he's lying at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anything that he can keep and record for history is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think there was an ultimate, I'm on the part of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the part of the Thompson, and it would have been a good one.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was this, what it was a desire to really
[SPEAKER_01]: Mixie, how bad pornography is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now listen, when Bundy did this, all his friends is attorneys, they said, this is all BS.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bundy knows better than this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Dr. Tane, which I give a couple pages to in my book, maybe three or four of his interview with Bundy and his assessment of Bundy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He, he's the one that said, and I didn't know this at the time I found this out in the research.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the one that said that pornography just doesn't have the power to.
[SPEAKER_01]: do that to somebody.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just lacks the power.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just doesn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it can, you know, it can change your feelings about things and you can become addicted to it without question.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: But even those that are addicted don't want to go out and harm women.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so we'd have a lot of Ted Bundy's out in the world.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, this this whole scenario was just.
[SPEAKER_00]: a very mutually beneficial conversation, I think.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if anything, again, it gave Bundy a chance one last time to kind of defer responsibility in a lot of ways to blame an outside source that had corrupted them versus taking kind of
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was a great opportunity for Thompson to get this really what would be kind of infamous in our view, you know, and get to really put what Kevin describes as a final nail in the coffin on this on these moral issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it's it's definitely makes feelings about this though.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's there's a level two where the Kevin says like, you know, it's a good thing this happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: The more material we have to look at the better.
[SPEAKER_00]: But certainly, obviously, it would have been better for investigators to get those seven or eight hours with Bundy instead of this really puff piece kind of conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was just completely agenda driven versus trying to find out more about victims versus trying to dig deeper into a psyche instead of softballing questions about, you know, cultural issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, yeah, there's a lot to think about here.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest pieces for me that stands out and I'm really curious to get people's takes on this because I know my audience is, you know, a large swathive you are believers, are Christians, a large swathive you are atheists and then there's a lot of agnostics in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I certainly find myself in kind of this agnostic camp at this point, but one of the things that really
[SPEAKER_00]: bothered me watching through footage was there's some moments where dops and talks about this in retrospect and he's like convinced that Bundy really did accept Jesus and that he's in heaven.
[SPEAKER_05]: Sure he killed 28 women but he is still a creation of God and he needed God like everybody else and John and Marsha went into that prison for
[SPEAKER_05]: and led him into, I think, only God knows.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, that's offensive to some people.
[SPEAKER_05]: The thought of Ted Bundy going to heaven, you know, had just done seem right, doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_05]: And yet the Lord said, there's no sin that he can't forgive.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I believe Ted found the Lord.
[SPEAKER_05]: Two years before he died, John Tanner called me on behalf of Ted.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he said, the Lord is talking to Ted.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he feels that he needs to admit his crimes.
[SPEAKER_05]: He needs to give information that will allow the parents and the families of the girls he murdered to know what happened to him.
[SPEAKER_05]: and he needs to confess what caused him he thinks to do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he knows the press will not allow him to get that message out because they obviously hated him.
[SPEAKER_05]: And perhaps for good reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I saw YouTube comment, I'll try to screenshot it and put it in here if I can.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't, it really hit me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And someone just said, by Dawson's belief system, his victims who did not accept Jesus
[SPEAKER_00]: And we did get into a long conversation with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kevin is a minister and has been for, I think, 40 years he said.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he has no sympathy for Bundy as a person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he talked to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a conversation like he went all out, like, you know, it would have been better for Bundy to get hit by a bus, you know, than to be able to commit all these murders.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he made no bones about what he feels about Bundy, but we dig into a conversation about like, was Bundy's conversion legit?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, was there something to it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, and his take was largely, you know, he doesn't think so.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, Bundy seemed again to be blowing a lot of smoke.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he also says there was a lot of weird things that Bundy said near the end of his life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I didn't bring him on to talk about this like deep theological discussion about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just said like, that's really a rock in my shoe.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like kind of how I described it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I just can't make sense of him getting away with this on a spiritual level.
[SPEAKER_00]: and that some of his victims, like innocent victims, are, you know, suffered worse consequences.
[SPEAKER_00]: The turnily, I, I just, it really is difficult for me to swallow that concept.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I know I understand there's going to be people I've different perspectives on that and I'm sure there's people that are going.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever have all these theological ideas, but he's I just can't I can't accept that answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just I really struggle with that and yeah, it's just a really I don't know, but you can see that longer conversation and I don't want to put in here because that's not what this up is so it's about but.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think like for me, it's the the Cavalier way specifically in which Dobson talks about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like Dobson literally says, sure Ted Bundy murdered 28 girls, like in such a flip-and-way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then he like, I don't know, it just grossed me out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It just bothered me and I'm curious what your take our takes ours listeners like if you're listening to you to definitely leave a comment or email preacherboys.gmail.com I just I'd be curious to hear some of the different perspectives on this but it just made me feel sick to my stomach thinking that this could have been real like I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just like I said, it's a rock on my show, it's something even doing the show like when I think of some of the most heinous Criminals, the people who have done the most horrific things to innocent children
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know, not to end on a dower note.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just on my mind.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't expect to spend as much time talking about it just now as I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: But me and Kevin talked for a little while about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we spent probably 20 minutes kind of just getting his perspective and talking about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Delicacet, I told him, I said, I think we could have a long conversation over lunch sometime about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But because I wanted to get into some of our bunty just facts and things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then I appreciate him answering.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's, yeah, it's definitely a heavy thing to think about.
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, yeah, this was a really curious, just story, really curious, engulfed to the Bundy story.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm really interested if you guys knew this.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't consume a lot of true crime.
[SPEAKER_00]: I told that to Kevin and I have a conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I don't know what people's general thoughts are on the story if they already know it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, Eric, everybody knows this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're not a true crime junkie like us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't know this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I thought I was just really interesting and I'm curious what do you think dobsons motive was and doing the interview and what do you think bunnies motive was new in the interview?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me know in the comments of this video or drop a comment over on social and I'd love to read through them.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to read all your theories about this case
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening again.
[SPEAKER_00]: My full conversation including a lengthy conversation about Abundee's alleged conversion is available on Patreon very soon.
[SPEAKER_00]: Should be in the next couple days after this comes out and it'll be available for free to the public and just a couple of weeks.
[SPEAKER_00]: So keep an eye out for that and thank you so much for listening.
[SPEAKER_00]: Big shout out to my guess you heard a little bit from just a sneak peek of our conversation Kevin and Sullivan go check out his book The Bundy murders a comprehensive history.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is one of the best books that I've read
[SPEAKER_00]: that deals with like a true crime case.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's absolutely fantastic.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is rich with details and handles the material in a way that is just incredible.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a great digestible piece of history and the audiobook is quite good as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I listen to the audiobook version.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had to flinch that out, check out some of Kevin's other work, and to thank you again to him for doing this episode, I respect his study in this so much, and it's clear that so many of the people connected to the Bundy case have as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The people have given him unprecedented access into their lives and their stories, speaks volumes of him and his character.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: I thank you so much for listening, thanks so much to him and look forward to seeing you guys on the next episode of the Prechboise podcast coming at you this Sunday.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll see you there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You've been listening to the Prechboise podcast hosted by Eric Swarzinski.
[SPEAKER_00]: The intro music Bible Belt was performed by Lou Rithley.
[SPEAKER_03]: Come on, we are gathered here today To praise the Holy Father, fill the glory of His name Anyone can worship here so long as you act straight Pay your ties and follow rules even the ones God didn't make any Bible