[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to another episode of Shooting the Shit with Literary Agents, Carly Waters, and CC Lyra.
[SPEAKER_03]: Where we dissect publishing gossip, discuss book industry trends, and the overall state of the book business.
[SPEAKER_03]: If you'd ever wanted to grab a coffee with two literary agents, grab your mug, and pull up a chair.
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, well CC and I started having a great conversation and then realized we didn't hit record.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, right, see what terrible thing I mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Mad at Carly guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm Mad at Carly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Today, I'm Mad at Carly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Ask why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why Carly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why am I Mad at you?
[SPEAKER_03]: CC, why are you mad at me, Carly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because you're going to be an LA when I'm going to be in Ottawa.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I never go to Ottawa.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've only been to Ottawa once in my life before and I'm going to be in Ottawa on Monday for
[SPEAKER_02]: with my client, Dr. Tracy Douglas, it's going to be great, it's going to be all about her new book, you, your husband and his mother, and I was like, Carly can come, it's going to be so much fun.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Carly's going to be an LA.
[SPEAKER_02]: What does LA have that auto it does not have?
[SPEAKER_02]: Why are you an LA, Carly?
[SPEAKER_03]: I know, so listen, I actually focus LA trip a very, very long time ago because of my chaotic life schedule, needing to break it up between kids events and obviously other work travel.
[SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't do everything back to back.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also, I mean, I will say I selfishly picked LA in November because of the weather.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, Ottawa started to do that like dip into, you know, fall where I'm starting to get the winter sadsies and I thought this would be a great week just to like, you know, duck out and.
[SPEAKER_03]: Get some sun on my arms and the CCs also give me thumbs down.
[SPEAKER_03]: I told her I'm going to bring my bed hat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm bringing my big sun hat.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got laser.
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a laser facial last week where they like, you know, do the, they try to get rid of the like, I don't know, sun spots and age spots.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I do have to wear lots of sunscreen.
[SPEAKER_03]: My big sun hat.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I will be very protected.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I'm excited about your vent and I, so if you got your list into this hack and sunscreen, no matter what though, first.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_03]: I will need less lasers if I just follow C.C.s advice here So see if you guys are listening to this odd Monday morning and if you're in Ottawa, so the it is tonight If you were listening to this on Monday, so go to
[SPEAKER_03]: The event, CCC, if you are an Ottawa or Ottawa listeners, I know there's a handful of you.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we got definitely go check her out.
[SPEAKER_03]: And then I also have a client in town, Alex Manley is doing an event for their essay collection, at perfect books this week.
[SPEAKER_03]: So a lot's going on in Ottawa that I'm going to miss.
[SPEAKER_03]: So why am I in LA?
[SPEAKER_03]: I am in LA to do TV field meetings.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so
[SPEAKER_03]: the thing about LA so I go every other year.
[SPEAKER_03]: So obviously I'm in New York a lot more because of like the book the book world but in terms of the TV film world and book adaptations I try to go every other year so I've been going every other year since maybe like 2013 so you know
[SPEAKER_03]: potentially my fifth trip, let's say.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I go to, I'm just looking at my schedule.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to see like a number of co-agents.
[SPEAKER_03]: So these are like the TV film agents in LA that I partner with to then pitch the producers and so on and so forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't mention those.
[SPEAKER_03]: I go to the agencies like UTA and CAA and CAA.
[SPEAKER_03]: at WME and all those acronym agencies to again talk to those guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a number of clients.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go to Netflix proper, like the Netflix offices, and Hollywood.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I've got lots of stuff.
[SPEAKER_03]: I have client dinners, which will be fun.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go see a friend.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I also booked a hotel that has like a very, and this is very LA, very like fitness center, you know, small wellness element to it, so they have like reformer Pilates machines in the fitness center at the gym.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll be able to get in my fitness in the morning because I'll be up so early because of East Coast time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do all my meetings and I'll be in the tired, but I think it'll be nice relaxing the day that we are recording as my first day.
[SPEAKER_03]: So next week will be my busy weekend, hopefully a little bit of downtime too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Sammatic, early on purpose, in case people are moving right now, I am because all this sounds so right, they're like, do it on some other week, you know, not the week where I will be in Ottawa, I mean, I won't be for the week, I'll just be for the day, but very important to be in Ottawa, not LA like, you know, you don't want the sunshine, but you don't want the sun spots, you don't want the sand sand is everywhere, nobody wants sand, you know, you want Ottawa with CC, you know, you know, you want Ottawa with CC, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean, I do love a four season environment, which is why obviously I'm glad that I live here.
[SPEAKER_03]: So you guys are going to get a beautiful fall foliage leaf peeping moment, if you will, I'm going to enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I hope you guys have a great time.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have a fun little lineup of things to talk about.
[SPEAKER_03]: The Q3 sales figures for the industry are in.
[SPEAKER_03]: We can talk about that.
[SPEAKER_03]: you guys have been sending us some different DMs and substacks and things that you guys have been reading.
[SPEAKER_03]: We also have another scam to talk about, which is such a bummer.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know we've talked about scams before they keep coming back, which is such a bummer.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, see where do you feel like starting today?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, how about we start with the sales update?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because we haven't talked about sales in a little while.
[SPEAKER_03]: We haven't known that was one thing that, you know, we see seeing I get an industry news all the time and I just kind of like read it and blow past it and I was like, oh yeah, we haven't updated you guys so there were some two three numbers that came in so books can it's now called sarcana so people call it sarcana or books can.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the same thing, but Sarkana Books can latest figures came in.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is for the print book market, came in at a declining 1% versus last year.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I decline 1% you know, do it that what you will, which is generally in line with second quarter performance of the year.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we were down in Q2 by 1% down in Q3 by 1% the adult market accounted for 80% of the declines.
[SPEAKER_03]: with the quote unquote normalization of adult fiction sales as a key factor is what they said and this is also recorded in Jane Freedman's hot sheets, you guys can read that in more detail and romance and thrillers for the categories that were hardest hit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, romance and thrillers, that's a bummer.
[SPEAKER_02]: We should also correct ourselves because I do this too her newsletter is now called the bottom line.
[SPEAKER_02]: It used to be thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's now called the bottom line.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure if you Google the hot sheet, you'll still get the great newsletter.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we're like, yeah, it's content that Carly and IP for ourselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not plugging the sentences in a sponsor situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not that we don't know their sponsors.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's just great.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a great newsletter, absolutely recommended.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing that we could highlight is that the children's market showed some growth, due to nonfiction sales.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's always interesting, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: With the infant books, it's top performing in the segment and middle-readers, being the most challenged segment.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: and the press release notes quote the shift in market performance suggests parents are prioritizing educational content and enrichment activities for their children while reducing discretionary spending on themselves and quote always what happens when the economy is a little rocky, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel like parents, parents will spend less on themselves and more on their kids and yeah I mean I guess I'm glad because
[SPEAKER_02]: I will personally thank every parent out there for reading to that kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a human and also, of course, as a literary agent, I think you're currently for reading to your kids, obviously, but you're in publishing, of course, you're in a reading to your kids.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm particularly cropping up the children's book market with a map of books I've bought.
[SPEAKER_03]: My kids are into like secret explorers club, we're into investigators.
[SPEAKER_03]: We're into magic, tree house, graphic novels, so I'm dropping it up for my neck of the post.
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is very nice and appreciated if you were blessed to have children, I feel blessed that you are reading to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: So thank you, thank you, everyone, for doing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not good to see a decline.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's also important to note that, you know, ups and downs are a part of sales, whether it's in any market.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, just, you know, how are you converting non-raders?
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I want all our listeners to be thinking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Go find a non-reader in your life, convert them into being a reader so we can increase readership we need more readers in the world.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we got little sales update for you guys there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now let's roll into some of the DMs that we got from you guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't we start with this listener had received personalized feedback from a literary agent, which is obviously the dream so many writers and they're obviously, is this personalized?
[SPEAKER_03]: What does this mean, et cetera, et cetera?
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're kind of wondering like did this agent offer this because they were more junior?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so let's
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you're to the listener who sent those to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it was a very thoughtful question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mind interpretation of it is they want to know what should I read into this?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, like they already started theorizing which I think shows critical thinking and example of this is then saying, okay, so this is a junior agent.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I know they have more time.
[SPEAKER_02]: So maybe this is why they gave me feedback.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will start by saying like feedback is always a good sign.
[SPEAKER_02]: you know, as as an agent, whether you're a junior agent, a senior agent, anything in between, even if you're like, okay, I really want to help writers and I really want to give them, you know, the the most feedback I can, even if you're doing it also because of good intentions, no age that's going to spend time offering feedback on something that is just so undercooked that
[SPEAKER_02]: but they can't help the writer like it's a good sign to be very proud it's rare and so people who aren't receiving feedback shouldn't read anything into that you know 99% of the time the reason why you're not getting feedback is the agent has no time that is not an agent's job to offer feedback you wouldn't go to a real estate agent and ask them for feedback on how to build a house like you just wouldn't you wouldn't go to a talent agent and be like hey you didn't give me feedback on why didn't make the audition like you just wouldn't do that and so same with the literary agent but when feedback is offered
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a gift, if that you can choose to ever see or not, but it is a gift and I find it to be really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Carly, when you are junior agent, did you use to offer feedback more?
[SPEAKER_03]: I definitely did and there's a few reasons why I would do it.
[SPEAKER_03]: Number one, it builds rapport, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So, even if I didn't want to sign this person for this book and it was like a maybe and I had some time and I had some notes that
[SPEAKER_03]: I was able to kind of cognitively pull something together because I find also, I don't just want to give people those just to give notes just to show that I read it.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that's kind of useless and not fair, but I was younger and newer, I would definitely do more of this type of thing because it built, it gets, I said, it built a great report, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And then they're like, oh, they think of that age at the next time.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would always say, like, I hope you find your right fit with this manuscript, but in case you don't, you know, queer me in the future, keep me in mind for future books.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like something to that effect where it's like obviously I hope that you find success with this project if you don't think it'd be for the future one or as we both know and we can talk about this too Like sometimes somebody signs with somebody and it's not a fit and then they kind of come back to us in the future that happens all the time as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's like it's kind of like putting that kind of goodwill into the universe and giving somebody feedback if you have pulled it all together.
[SPEAKER_03]: I just mind like as I said, it doesn't really make sense if you
[SPEAKER_03]: Don't have a strong vision for it, then you're just kind of like, if I didn't like it and then I don't Is that actually helpful?
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, the most right is probably think it would, but as an agent.
[SPEAKER_03]: I know that author scrutinize every single line, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: I know this person was like, every single word.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not reading between lines.
[SPEAKER_03]: We read every line, like I need to figure out what's going on here.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I know that writers take that so seriously, and I never ever want to lead anybody astray or get their hopes up or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's definitely worth getting excited about, but you also got to think like, if they liked it that much, why didn't they offer on it?
[SPEAKER_03]: So it usually is just kindness.
[SPEAKER_03]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: the game changer, I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, when I have a vision for something, it means that the author gave me enough that the world actually can start to exist in my mind and then I can actually play around with it as opposed to something being just so formless that I can't really do anything with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I thought that was really interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: As an insider, you heard about it here first, I hope B doesn't kill me, but I'm gonna say it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for our next deep dive in January, we have an agent who shall remain laneless for now, because we haven't announced our presenters yet.
[SPEAKER_02]: But her presentation is going to be about reading between the lines of agents responses.
[SPEAKER_02]: So she says, you know, this is for writers who perfected their query letter, polished or manuscript submitted to their dream agents,
[SPEAKER_02]: and then gotten a whole sorts of rejections.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we'll comb through a range of agent responses, including requests, not just rejections, but discuss how to interpret and to navigate these replies.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I know people are gonna be particularly interested on how to interpret the nose and the babies.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cause how to interpret the yes is very easy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yes is a yes, but yeah, so you heard about it before it's gonna be awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: So if you haven't already,
[SPEAKER_02]: kept in mind that deep dive for 2026 make sure that you do.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm very exciting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's great to hear from an agent, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, you know, all these writers groups, all these techs, shades, all these Facebook groups, all these discord channels, like, everybody trying to parse it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it is nice to just have a collection of agents or an agent be like, okay, this is what's what?
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: And now, a word from our sponsors.
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome back, everybody.
[SPEAKER_03]: CC, what's going on in the newsletter right now this week?
[SPEAKER_02]: So many things.
[SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, paid members will find our written critiques from books with hooks that we discussed in last weeks episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's a look, author Q&A with Brian Schaffer, author of Town and Country.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's breaking down to three things.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's done to build a writing network, writing network is so important.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I had something that I personally looking forward to reading.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also have an essay from Brissa Curlton, the author of Last Call of the Savoy, about why you should write your next book before the first one sells.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I just say all the applause, but it's a great advice and her angle is super interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm also looking forward to that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also have an author video.
[SPEAKER_02]: Heather, got him cough, author of the Perfect Hosts, providing practical tips on using setting to create mood,
[SPEAKER_02]: a lot of people understand the first, create mood.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you know what, setting can also do more such as deer action, reveal secrets and really making it an integral part of the narrative rather than just backdrop.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you guys know how much I love secrets, so let's all listen to Heather's advice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another thing going on in our newsletter is we have a really brilliant author essay by Kendra Brokecuse, author of nearly beloved about why your ideas aren't as precious as your agility.
[SPEAKER_02]: she quotes organizational psychologists at him grant who put it this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the past, people were hired and promoted based on the ability.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the future, the more valuable currency will be agility.
[SPEAKER_02]: We should bet on people with the motivation to learn and the flexibility to change.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you adapt that for the writing market, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like as a creator, find you're like, fine, I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: The world is changing AI, whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: But how do I adapt that to an art form?
[SPEAKER_02]: that's all about slowing down my brain and being thoughtful.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's actually a way to do both to slow down your brain and be thoughtful and to embrace agility.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we look forward to our next edition, just sayin'.
[SPEAKER_03]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that's our Tuesday edition, everybody, that is for our paid subscribers.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you're not in there, now is the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: What are we waiting for?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, next topic of conversation is submissions.
[SPEAKER_03]: And this is, so this we're talking about agented submissions to editors at this point.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the framing of the conversation, which is around timing.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this comes up all the time.
[SPEAKER_03]: Again, whether it's authors, you know, querying agents, but specifically agents actually debate this quite a bit as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, when should we be not selling, when should we be folk?
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's, it's one of those things where my high level take on this, let me read the question a little bit first and then I'll get it to it.
[SPEAKER_03]: So this person says, what is the best time to go on submission?
[SPEAKER_03]: I hear that editors are not as responsive in the summer.
[SPEAKER_03]: They're busy in the fall publishing basically shuts down from Thanksgiving through the new year.
[SPEAKER_03]: So that leaves winter and spring.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yes, there are definitely going to be busier times than others.
[SPEAKER_03]: Generally, the Thanksgiving through the New Year is the time where people are trying to get stuff off their desk.
[SPEAKER_03]: They are not really looking at bringing new things in necessarily.
[SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times, also acquisitions meetings and Edward meetings are just canceled.
[SPEAKER_03]: People aren't holiday or so-and-so's already off.
[SPEAKER_03]: Somebody's kidded has their holiday play that day.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just so many like family obligations.
[SPEAKER_03]: is so on and so forth travel.
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's just one of those things where people aren't necessarily as focused on the newest things coming in.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I definitely agree with that.
[SPEAKER_03]: For a number of years, have not submitted between Thanksgiving and New Years, I guess like the only exception maybe like an auction project where it's just timing related and so that would be a focus.
[SPEAKER_03]: But if it's like a new submission, let's say like debut or you know something like that,
[SPEAKER_03]: The January to May window was obviously the biggest window of the year because everyone's generally at their desks.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's obviously different holidays going on and the UK people take like a week off for Easter.
[SPEAKER_03]: there's like March breaks and various spring breaks, especially for families with children, the probably going to take that week off.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, there's abs and flow with a generally people are at their desks.
[SPEAKER_03]: The summer is where, like, there's a bit of a debate of when summer starts.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, there's summer Fridays, which start after the long weekend in May, and then carry through to labor day.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's generally like the quieter part of publishing, and CC, what is your philosophy
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like so much of it depends on the project and the sublist because more warm realizing that I mean, I don't like to sub without first talking to editors.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like to have at least a phone call if not an in person meeting or lunch or coffee or whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I find that if I'm able to get an editor really excited with the meeting first, again, could just be a phone call.
[SPEAKER_02]: The timing
[SPEAKER_02]: Works itself out because the editors are already expecting that in their inbox.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not just another pitch in their inbox and a list of God knows how many pitches people are getting these days.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because I have such a small client list and I go on sub only a few times a year it works for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I suppose if I had like larger volume this probably would not be feasible, but that's just not my list at least not at the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I think I don't mind it all the quiet parts of summer as long as I've spoken to these people, I know their after desk and know their hungry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have also heard, like absolutely signing off on everything you're saying, Carly, at the same time, I've heard editor say, well, during the quiet months, I get nothing and they don't mean to be doing nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They just mean the voice reduces so much, they're like, I actually really wanted to buy a book this year.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had an editor who shall remain meanless, but I'll say that it's a penguin random house imprint to say, I haven't bought anything this volume and I'm super excited to buy and I have the green light to buy.
[SPEAKER_02]: and I'm just not getting enough, they're kind of like on more in the junior, so I don't want to say junior because they've been at it for years, but they haven't been acquiring for many years and they just haven't gotten a lot of exciting projects and they know with the Thanksgiving break coming up, people are going to stop submitting and they're like, I need to buy a book this year.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's also two sides to this, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I've heard, I still remember an editor telling me how dead August is submission-wise,
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not like editors are sitting around doing nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have plenty of work with their own business, own things, like such busy people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Doing so much work.
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, I feel like this is why agents are not robots.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, one of the many reasons why you actually want a human being on the other side of the desk is
[SPEAKER_02]: because it's fluid, it's a dance, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like okay, so it depends.
[SPEAKER_02]: This book, what this book makes sense in the summer are the editors that I really want to target around our most of them around.
[SPEAKER_02]: Am I gonna do like a small submission first?
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe widen that night if we don't have any success.
[SPEAKER_02]: I guess, again, it depends on the strategy and I absolutely feel like so the person who asked this has an agent and they said, I trust my agent 100% they're clearly very happy with their agent, which is always so lovely to see.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is why you want this really great relationship, this really human relationship with your agent because you want to hear it depends.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about your case.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's not talk about what works in general.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, we can, but that's not spent too much time talking about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's talk about your book and how special your submission is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like that makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the other thing I want to say is, so there's the individual editor, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: But then it's like, if they like it, then it's second reads, and then it's acquisitions meetings, and so on and so forth.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, well, let's come back to like the individual editor.
[SPEAKER_03]: Individual editors don't really get that much vacation, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, I think we like to imagine there's like these people traveling all the time, like they get a certain number of vacation days, just like anybody else, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Generally publishers are closed between Christmas and New Year's, obviously there's long weekends or summer Fridays, but generally editors are at their desk doing their jobs.
[SPEAKER_03]: So they're not like that elusive to pin down, obviously certain publishers, if you've been with somebody for five years or 10 years, you get a sabbatical, which is awesome.
[SPEAKER_03]: A couple of months, sabbatical.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's maternity leaves.
[SPEAKER_03]: There's like all of these things that rotate around and change people's cut-up positions in various ways.
[SPEAKER_03]: But generally, people are at their desk doing their job.
[SPEAKER_03]: And so when I see those questions, I whistle a bit, because I'm like, is that just an excuse just to be like not to pitch at certain times?
[SPEAKER_03]: Or, and like CCC said, that editors are getting all these missions at certain times and not others?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I agree, like, I don't have a blanket feeling about it.
[SPEAKER_03]: But there is kind of an energy of the back-to-school.
[SPEAKER_03]: So like, that September, a post-labor day, back-to-school energy.
[SPEAKER_03]: But editors get a lot of subs, but there's a lot of energy.
[SPEAKER_03]: and then that new year right as soon as everybody's ready to go because people potentially help things back for the December period right and everybody's like rare and to go in January so there's like a ton of energy there and then I get along some mission window so listen to your your agent I agree with CC every project is incredibly unique and most of us who just have our butts in our chairs all year long
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, when we're not running their thoughts, right, curly, because you run their thoughts and you up our group average.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're very cooler because of curly.
[SPEAKER_02]: All I do is definitely sit in my chair, but curly's running their thoughts, so.
[SPEAKER_03]: You're too kind, and they're triathlon ones.
[SPEAKER_03]: You make me sound like I'm an ultramarathon, you're on.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's that just isn't that more impressive because it's a try situation.
[SPEAKER_03]: Do you three things and not just one?
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_03]: In my opinion, it isn't because I am not like grinding it out like running for, you know, the amount of time I get to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Triathlon has like swimming too, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And then what's the other way?
[SPEAKER_03]: Swimming with the biking and running.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, that's way harder than just right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, it's way harder than just running.
[SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, three different skills like the last time I was on a bike.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was what 12 years old.
[SPEAKER_02]: I probably fall Like this is actually a really interesting test to me to try to get on a bike hit some point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like oh my god It also swimming.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's like water in your ears and like that's not comfortable Yeah, no way harder.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, how do you say like you only do it in the summer?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you're not swimming in the middle of the winter I swim in a pool when I'm training and I have a wet suit What's my blanket
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, we're gonna wed suit in May, in June.
[SPEAKER_03]: The wed suit keeps you warm?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's an actual air.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm the warm suit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it called the suit?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand me.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this is a scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: They can't go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank God for the athletic Carly, because I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: The apology of words.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, we also think to date a second question, which was, so whether you go out on submission with a handful of editors versus going big.
[SPEAKER_03]: I feel like this is kind of a hard one to answer because it is so individual.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it depends.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it depends on genre.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think it depends on the actual book.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so I don't really have a good answer for that one.
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_03]: I also feel like, you know, not to say that you guys are like selling my trade secrets here, but, you know, some of these things we gotta keep close to the chest in terms of how and why we do our jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: Grail.
[SPEAKER_02]: See, this is why we're trying to like, I guess peel back the curtain, but also like,
[SPEAKER_03]: mystery.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's Scorpio season, guys, and we're in a little air of mystery here.
[SPEAKER_03]: What's next on our LCC?
[SPEAKER_02]: So we, same listener, sent us an article to sub-stack.
[SPEAKER_02]: A article called No News is Bad News by Devon Halliday.
[SPEAKER_02]: So essentially the listeners been on sub for four months and the article rang true to them, despite it being hard to hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: So
[SPEAKER_02]: The article in a nutshell talks about how the consistent truth in the publishing industry is that good news comes quickly and bad news comes slowly or not at all and the author recognizes that there are exceptions to this rule that they believe is true meaning sometimes bad news could be quick and then sometimes good news could be slow but they're saying that the this is the exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's not helpful to think about the exception or focus on the exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, when I read this, I had the feeling that's been following me all my life, which is other people have a user manual, I do not.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are many things that are very obvious to people that are not obvious to me and I've always felt this way.
[SPEAKER_02]: and it's always confused me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then conversely, though, there are things that I spot to the other people typically don't spot.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people are always telling me, oh, it's so clever that you spot at that, and I'm like, it's just in front of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So anyway, this is my way of saying my brain is weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: And because the brain is weird, I did what I love to do, which is ask around.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm a part of two different agent slacks, not counting my own agency slack.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I ask people, I was like, what do you think?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you think this is true that good news comes quickly and bad news comes slowly and not at all?
[SPEAKER_02]: And like I got so many messages, so many messages from from fellow agent friends and saying like it just depends too much on the box and people have had good news come quickly so people have had good news come really slowly one person sold a book after seven years of being on submission and no not all of seven years were active submissions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another person mentioned how auction's yes or quickly, but that doesn't mean that the sales can't happen afterwards, even though they're typically not auctions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Another person mentioned that the majority of her good news has been slow, I guess, after hearing so many comments, and which we can absolutely dissect later if people are curious, but here's what I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is my conclusion.
[SPEAKER_02]: I disagree that the consistent truth of the publishing industry is,
[SPEAKER_02]: Good news comes quickly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bad news comes slowly and not at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, there's a different consistent truth to the publishing industry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's what it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: The publishing industry is an industry of exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agentut authors, the exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agentut authors with book deals, the exception.
[SPEAKER_02]: Authors that make the best seller lists, the exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Authors with film deals, exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: this is an industry of exceptions because if you put every writer in a room who wants the same goal, there's just the only one in that room that makes it and you put them in a different room and the same thing keeps happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that when you say it's not helpful to focus on the exception, you're missing the point.
[SPEAKER_02]: The point is the exceptions are what make this industry exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like we are an industry of exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every book is unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every product is unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: We try to find these common denominators in publishing and be like, what's the pattern?
[SPEAKER_02]: What can I expect?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no pattern.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's no rhyme or reason.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's every product is a unique product.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every editor is unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: Every relationship between the editor and their bosses.
[SPEAKER_02]: The people they have to get approval for is unique.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everything is so unique that
[SPEAKER_02]: trying to find these consistent truths so that you can prepare yourself for submission is a beautiful human understandable impulse in my opinion, not helpful though.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that to me is what's not helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I applaud the author for their sharp perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was really interesting, but I think the consistent truth is that we are a business of exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think?
[SPEAKER_03]: I think that,
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I show even like this who do the shit wouldn't exist if all of this was true, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because it would just be so easy to be like, let's pump this into this box.
[SPEAKER_03]: This Excel spreadsheet in this and it like art, our business just isn't one of those like, let's just put a little label on it and pattern on the head and move on.
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just not that simple to label thing, not to say that this whole article was simple, but I think it's just trying to like you said.
[SPEAKER_03]: put things in a box or label it or oversimplify, you know, really just complex thing which is that it's not going to be the same experience for everybody and therefore I love articles like this which break things down and this person provides statistics about their experiences which I love which makes people feel like they're in it together.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's why I love articles like this.
[SPEAKER_03]: Not because I think that we always got to have the answer to everything because we just won't.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think there was a couple
[SPEAKER_03]: article one thing that I pulled was this question answer kind of thing they did which they said that somebody's question could be when should you give up on a submission and then this person's answer is a submission dies to deaths the first death is when you realize it's not going to work out the second death is when the last rejection finally crawls its way to your door the second death is not under your control but the first death is
[SPEAKER_03]: I just find it's an agent that's so interesting to me to hear that from author's perspective, but it's not really like my experience as the agent, as the literal person who facilitates the rejection is going back and forth, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because like the editor sends me the rejection, I read it, I log it, some clients want them, some don't, do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_03]: So firstly, the first death, when you realize it's not going to work out, like when do you realize that that to me is a mindset thing?
[SPEAKER_03]: where you just got so many and therefore now you're turning that optimism part of your brain off because this industry does not exist with pessimism.
[SPEAKER_03]: It only exists with optimism.
[SPEAKER_03]: So when you turn off your optimism switch, that is a death of sorts, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because you're losing that optimism and then you're switching to pessimism, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: And that disappointment, the second death is when the last rejection finally crawls its way to your door.
[SPEAKER_03]: I would agree with that that there is these like layers and levels of like the stepping down of that energy of I'm so excited we did a book to a right away and then it's like okay this rejects are taking a while and like here's the feedback and to be honest with you the last rejection never calls it's way to your door the last rejections always going to be a ghost you know it's always going to be the person that didn't get back to you so I just find
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do agree that there's like a stepping down of these layers of levels, but yeah, again, it's just not that simple, but I love that this author is like trying to conceptualize this and trying to put words to it, because I think they're a beautiful writer, like I love I love adding this sub stack.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, so Wilvitt and again, I appreciate a sharp point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's it's rare and rare these days and I love a sharp point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: I happen to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, how even if disagree is the word because it's just like I happen to take a different angle to this, but I loved the point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to highlight a few things about this article, which again, I encourage everyone to take a look at this article.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's called No News as Bad News by Devon Holiday on Substack.
[SPEAKER_02]: We will link it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's a few things that stood out to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: One, the author saying, what about your one friend who waited a really long time for something then finally got it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there are exceptions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes good news comes belatedly or out of the blue.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are so few exceptions that holding out for them seems to do more harm than good.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then later in the article, a few sentences later, they say that some writers are as optimistic on day three as they are in day 429.
[SPEAKER_02]: And while I find that perseverance inspiring, it's also impractical.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go on to conclude that you can't use the data to make a decision on how to proceed if you're in denial about the data you've received.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this, to me, is at the heart of what I'm saying in terms of the angle.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you are telling me and perhaps this person is telling me that you're someone who the possibility that something could still work out keeps you from focusing on something else, then yes, I agree you should follow the whole good news, it comes fast, because if it's going to make you to use your words, hold out on another project, then by all means.
[SPEAKER_02]: believe this supposed consistent truth, because if it's gonna stop you from producing new work, it is a disservice, I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: Furthermore, though, when you say it's impractical, there are people, I know these people, I know these authors, who they embrace, here's an analogy, imagine you're playing cards, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: And you're a great card player, and you have certain cards in front of you that nobody knows about it, and then some cards on the table that everyone knows about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Some people understand that in order to win, win the game, meaning a shave your goals in publishing, you need to sometimes get new cards, make some type of risky move, like it's all within your control to a degree, but you focus on your cards, your game.
[SPEAKER_02]: They also know there's always a wild card that could appear.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's always a wild card, a wild card could come up or not at all, and the wild card is the good news that could come, whether fast or slow or anything in between.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your cards though are the stuff you can control.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to make it in publishing, your logos of control needs to be turned in order.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need to be focusing on what you can do to make it happen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see so many writers focus on the fact that my book didn't sell because I'm writing from ex-perspective and people don't want that perspective.
[SPEAKER_02]: My book didn't sell because the work time is ex and people don't want that word count.
[SPEAKER_02]: My book didn't sell because and they kind of like blame these external factors.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a human thing to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do it too, but you have to get over it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to be like, what can I do to focus on improving my chances of making it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And often, it's just keeping on trying.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was listening to an interview on Diary of the CEO.
[SPEAKER_02]: He asked great questions with Jimmy Fallon.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Jimmy Fallon was talking about how his dream was always to be on Saturday night live ever since he was little boy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he has dad asked him to work college, but he decided to drop out six months before he was going to graduate and go to LA and just go on auditions.
[SPEAKER_02]: rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected, rejected.
[SPEAKER_02]: People would say, you have talent, but you're still green.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have talent, but you're still green.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he talked about how he got to a point where he was ready to give up.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was looking into whether he could move back home, go back to school, and then, of course, he made it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the point is, I don't think people understand that there's that process in writing.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have a big stretch of time where you are talented, but still green.
[SPEAKER_02]: and part of what you're supposed to be doing with that time is trying and putting yourself out there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you're supposed to face projection as the norm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Rejection is the norm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Most people are rejected.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you interpret projection as, oh no, this means there's something wrong with me, and you kind of internalize that pessimism, then you won't keep on trying, because your expectations will have been that it should be fast, and it's almost never fast.
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm just nodding along.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like it's the strangest business and I actually feel like the longer I'm in it the less
[SPEAKER_03]: precise I am with my wording in the way that I talk about it because there are so many exceptions and things change so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think early in my career I talked about it before but I used to blog so every Monday and have a blog post and it would be like something's like a list of like ten things to look for that at the seven ways to improve your synopsis and every Monday you know I'd write these things right and it was my way of like obviously providing content and resources for you guys which was really important to me but also
[SPEAKER_03]: In some ways looking back at it, I did try to oversimplify things, right, because I was trying to break it into these sections that felt like you could wrap your hands around it and you could touch it and you could reach out and try to make connection with it.
[SPEAKER_03]: And the longer I do this, the more I realize there's so many reasons to be talking these things, like, oh, no, when I see it to type words, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because there's so much about this that is so.
[SPEAKER_03]: dependent on a million other things, and so when we try to exhibit control over something, that is our way, right, of trying to control the situation, because if we can explain it to ourselves, then we can control it, and if we can't explain it to ourselves, then we can't control it, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's that idea of letting it releasing it to the universe is really hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like the writer saying, you can't do that if you're in denial.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think that understanding that a wild card could always happen is being in denial.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's only denial if you refuse to understand that you have to keep on going on the side.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're focusing on your own cards and the wild card could always have.
[SPEAKER_02]: Understanding that
[SPEAKER_02]: it only takes one yes and now random everything is and how every book is unique it's not denial at least I don't think it needs to be and again you you know yourself right like if you need to internalize no if I believe good news could come at any moment I won't work so I'm going to believe it can that's fine that's you like shifting your mindset and and working things inside your own psychology in a way that works for you but
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't see it that way myself, you know, which is like I seem to say, I as an agent have a lot of projects that I can champion as opposed to just, you know, one project at a time for a writer.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a great point, obviously, from our vantage point, we see things very differently, but that also means we field rejections at an X percentage more than you because we have that many important projects.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, I field tons of projections because I work out tons of projects, so, you know, we see the huge scope of it.
[SPEAKER_03]: right now we've kind of been talking directly to writers but like there's agents listening to this we feel you right because we have to have all these projections for all of these clients remain all you know with optimism for everything because when we choose to work on something we're putting our our time on the line our energy on the line a reputation on the line and when you as a young agent get tons of rejections your life
[SPEAKER_03]: What does this say about me?
[SPEAKER_03]: What does this say about my taste, right?
[SPEAKER_03]: Because we have this like bucket of projects we're taking with us, and that can be really hard as a new agent as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, rejection hurts no matter what.
[SPEAKER_02]: No matter what.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's why it's why you have to love this so much that the rejection becomes just, you know, growing pains.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's part, it's part of the process.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by growing pains, I mean constant growing pains that growth never ends.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because the rejection never ends.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just how it is.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now, it's some all good points.
[SPEAKER_03]: I think we could talk about that for very, very long time.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if anybody has future questions for us, we've discontinued our Q&A.
[SPEAKER_03]: So we used to do a Q&A for the show, for the shit known tells you about writing at large, which we used to record and would go to our sub-stacks subscribers.
[SPEAKER_03]: We have discontinued that, because obviously we kind of field questions from you guys for this show.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you are interested in having some questions featured or you want to know something, I think a lot of you guys have been DMing us, just a note to please don't DM the actual like podcast account because it was Anna is very, you know, overwhelmed and beyond go overwhelmed kind of like feeling all of that stuff on the podcast side of things, and this is more specific to me in CC.
[SPEAKER_03]: So if you can either comment on a existing shooting the shit real so that we can like see the comments on the reals.
[SPEAKER_03]: and that way we can note that for future reference or you can still DM me and CC we saw their DMs open if you want to send any anything to us directly but let's give me on a cover
[SPEAKER_03]: and not flood her DMs and Rosanna and Bianca do a great job on the podcast socials accounts.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so the last thing I wanted to mention, I don't know if you've been getting these CC, I've been getting them, I know lots of authors of been getting these, which is like literally copying a pasted chatGPTA I quote unquote marketing plans or I'm gonna promote your book.
[SPEAKER_03]: And at first I thought it was just kind of innocuous, I was just kind of like delete delete delete delete, whatever.
[SPEAKER_03]: But now we're realizing actually that there is something quite sinister with some of these because some of these authors will reply back to these AI marketing scams and this is how to become a scam, which is then money starts to get involved.
[SPEAKER_03]: So then they're like, oh, well, then I will send this person my money if they're going to do this marketing plan that chat to BT spit out to them, even though this person hasn't read my book and all they did was put the jacket copy and to chat to BT and spit this out.
[SPEAKER_03]: You know, I'm going to promote your book for you or here's like this thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: I get anyway, it's there's just an absolute influx.
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, these bots are just taking jack-o-copy pump and then in a chat GPT because you can see it still has the chat GPT like fought like it's so obvious to me when these things come through.
[SPEAKER_03]: See, see, have you been getting these for your authors or are seeing these?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I am just insulted by the low quality, like... No, no, at least do a good job if you're trying to scam me, like, seriously.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is insulting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's annoying and insulting, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: What would hope you would at least try?
[SPEAKER_02]: the quality if you're submitting something to a literary agent, but I guess not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it just, like, this is terrible.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hate this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, no thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: No thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I would like AI to come to my home and do my dishes for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do not need AI to be doing this.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, unsubscribe.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but letting you guys know, yeah, I might seem innocuous, but obviously like, you know, do not respond.
[SPEAKER_03]: This is general spam, and, you know, if you go down conversations with these just a red flag that we have heard of authors
[SPEAKER_03]: Please, please do all of your research if you're going to hire somebody for marketing publicity, which we know you guys would Because that's just so important to make sure you deal with an actual human and not a bot that is going to steal your money 100% Yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, that is our show for today, guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Next week, I am going to be an LA.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, Cicina, I'm going to do a live from LA recording, well, I'll be in LA.
[SPEAKER_03]: She'll be back home.
[SPEAKER_03]: We'll do kind of maybe more of a TV film focus next week, which will be great.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, thank you guys for tuning in.
[SPEAKER_03]: Every Monday to us and the Mondays that you don't hear us is when you get about this episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: So, we're glad we can bring so much more content to you, guys.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for tuning in.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cicina Lira is a literary agent at Wendy Sherman Associates.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you'd like to query CC, please refer to the Submission Guidelines at www.wshermon.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: Carly Waters is a literary agent at PS Literary Agency.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a work on this podcast is not affiliated with the agency and the views expressed by Colley on this podcast are solely that of her as a podcast co-host and do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, policies, or position of PS literary agency.