[SPEAKER_02]: Hey everybody, we just wanted to let you know that this episode discusses suicidal feelings and violence.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you or anyone you know is having concerns about this, you can always call or text 988 in the United States and there's someone there to help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello everyone and welcome to the Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole with Clark, Dax and their good friends, Tom and Harry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9.
[SPEAKER_00]: Your host for today, all my fellow trek actors, all my fishermen, Robert Duncan McNeill and myself, Garrett Wong.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's to be here, sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: But a complete and exciting version of this podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Check out patreon.com forward slash the delta flyers and sign up to become a patron today.
[SPEAKER_02]: You sound like one of those British sports that like talks about cricket or something, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Very good, Rob.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very quiet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ah, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was actually paying tribute to a show that I've been, it's show that people been watching for a while, but I got into it very recently, which is Ted Lasso.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on Ted Lasso, there's a character of Nate Shelley, who was a very unassuming sort of a soft spoken out coach of one of the teams.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, I'm going to do that today.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, hello, Armin.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hello, hello.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been a while for us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's been a nice summer, it's been rather warm here in Los Angeles, but we got through it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've been doing a lot of swimming so that makes it a little bit cooler.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been great.
[SPEAKER_04]: How has your summer been?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did a couple of conventions, Garrett, and I saw each other at Vegas and then in Atlanta, DragonCon.
[SPEAKER_02]: Atlanta was, is my hometown, so it was really fun to go back because I saw some very dear old friends and family and had a couple of great meals.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you go to that restaurant?
[SPEAKER_02]: I recommended, by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Two other links went there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because we ate there two days before at another restaurant, which is a fusion sort of restaurant right next to Urban Licks, that one building that has a huge class in front of the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: We ate there, I can't remember the name of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But most, most peculiar about Atlanta, and you probably know this, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was the coolest drag-in-con ever.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I flew from there to LA, so I'm in LA now.
[SPEAKER_01]: LA was hotter than it is now hotter than Atlanta.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, usually Atlanta, it at around Dragon Contimer, any.
[SPEAKER_02]: in the summer is just like a sauna or a steam bath.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's blistering, blistering hot and muggy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And but it was, it was nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: I took a walk one day and we did take that walk by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we exited the restaurant, like you said, we went left towards him and park and saw that whole area.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We call that the belt line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Belt line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Atlanta's Belt line is kind of like their boardwalk.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was through through midtown with all kinds of restaurants.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, fun stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very lively and I just felt that everyone in Atlanta realized how cool the weather was So everyone was on the belt line.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone was on the belt line.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was literally it looked like it felt like walking through the hallways of drag and car on the belt line There's so many people so many people.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it's drag and con still as Populated by thousands of people.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, you've been though right not for years and years and years and years and years
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, they have close to 100,000 people at that convention.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armored, eh?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it was when you were there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because when the decade ago, you know, you've showed your shoulder with everybody.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was really hard to take a step.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: At the Vegas convention, I saw some people with these pins.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Captain Proton.
[SPEAKER_02]: there's that one I have not seen that's a new one for cool there's Captain Proton which was me yeah here's uh here's another one oh you're actual rocket ship from Proton rocket ship and then there's even from this this company uh put up the lower decks character to fansets the lower decks character and I have to give a shout out this is not an ad or anything but these guys make such cool pins yeah next time you're at a convention find them
[SPEAKER_02]: I took their cards, it's fan sets, is one of them, and the other one is section 31 supply, I think that, but I just want to give a shout out to these guys because I love, I'm going to put this up to, I love
[SPEAKER_02]: their stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: When I see that the fans come by with these pins, they're so well made and so cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to, this is not an ad.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not getting paid for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, honestly, honestly, really like these pins.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that's all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want to say that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like them.
[SPEAKER_02]: The reason I'm bringing up who makes those pins next time you guys are at a convention,
[SPEAKER_02]: You should look for your quark pins or your hairy kimpins because they make some cool stuff and they're not flimsy cheap either They're solid metal.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're really well done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I will look for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, great I love going in the merch section sometimes in artist alley and those kind of things Yeah, and I would ever their tape I had seen one of those pins on somebody and I just went to find the one pin right and then suddenly they're like oh well
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, those guys approached me a bit back and I do have a couple of Harry Kim ones from them Oh, you do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I was very impressed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, well, Marie, if you guys are really pulling out all the stops.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, Rhyby and I are not being paid for this, but we definitely think that you guys check out their cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, check out our minimum and look for a pork pin for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's time, Robbie McNeill, for poetry synopsis.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, poetry and then a little etymology.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, quite a way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Armin, I have a question for you before I release the crack in of my poem.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you know the etymology of Quark, the name of your character?
[SPEAKER_04]: There are several places where the quarks certainly is an anatomical figure.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is the smallest article.
[SPEAKER_04]: I forgive me for the physicists out there.
[SPEAKER_04]: I believe it is the smallest article in the universe.
[SPEAKER_04]: The atoms are made of quarks.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there are five quarks as I understand it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what I remember.
[SPEAKER_04]: The most is top quarks that that might be me.
[SPEAKER_04]: But there are four other quirks as well and all matters made out of quirks.
[SPEAKER_04]: But there's also a quark is a cottage cheese brand in Germany.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean you open a Pandora's box of deafness.
[SPEAKER_04]: Also I believe in some Polynesian language quark means outsider.
[SPEAKER_04]: Those three definitions are the ones that I'm most familiar with.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, I was just a fan had asked, had mentioned the recent mention, had mentioned how much they love your etymology.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: They had done a little etymology on Quark and I couldn't recall all of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I thought I'd just ask you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they people love your etymology.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's well, that's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, the other thing I wanted to tell you, Armin is a fan came up to me and said, I love when Armin nitpicks on the Delta Floor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, really?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, she said, will you please tell him to do it more?
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I don't have to tell him to do it more.
[SPEAKER_01]: He will do it more, but the bottom line is... Thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you, because I sometimes think I do a little too much of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, as a perfectionist, I want everything to be even a little bit better.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love it too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just don't nitpick on my limb rectus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can nitpick on the shell.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm very sensitive about my limb rectus.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here we go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: A prison simulation is how miles must make a men's.
[SPEAKER_02]: 20 years in prison, and his mind starts to bend.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's got PTSD.
[SPEAKER_02]: Will he ever feel free?
[SPEAKER_02]: You get by with a little help from your friends.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and inspiring.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, thank you, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: For hard time, my Hiku, jailed for two decades.
[SPEAKER_01]: Chief can't seem to acclimate Bashir talks him down.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Both of you mentioned the time span that the program was supposedly took and both of you said 20 years.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't really save.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's as 20 cycles, doesn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it's a cycle.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we, you know, different planets rotate around the sun different times.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, what a year might be for mercury would be different that a year for Pluto.
[SPEAKER_01]: agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have 1,000% agreed, but at some point, each are does say years 20.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's a good year.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a good year.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said I've been in for six cycles, but later he does talk about years and each are uses years.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought all right ours is 365 Mercury's.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know this is a lot shorter than that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or on that planet it could be longer than 365.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could be Jupiter, which would be longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, etymology time, etymology.
[SPEAKER_01]: Etymology.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: So hard times, two words, I only stress one, one of them, and that is hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hard is a
[SPEAKER_04]: In old English, it's pronounced, uh, I'm going to get this wrong, but I'm going to spell it for you.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's pronounced herd, or looks like herd, H-E-A-R-D.
[SPEAKER_04]: In old prison, it's pronounced herd, but H-E-R-D.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in old high German, it's heart, H-A-R-T pronounced H-A-R-T.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I looked up the expression hard times.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the phrase hard times, before you go on, is it plural or is it singular for this episode robbing?
[SPEAKER_04]: Hard time is the title, but hard times is what I'm referring to, yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: The phrase hard times originated to describe periods of economic hardship and difficulty appearing in the 18th century folk song, Hard Times of Old England, and becoming widely popularized by Charles Dickens, 1854 novel, Hard Times for these times, and Stefan Foster's 1854 song, Hard Times come no more.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the phrase is used evolved to include a specific meaning of jail sentence in America slang.
[SPEAKER_04]: But its primary meaning refers to general difficult circumstances as popularized by Dickens to Piction of that during the Industrial Revolution.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, so that's where the phrase hard time and hard times comes from.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dickens had a big impact on the English language, not as much as Shakespeare perhaps, but Dickens had a big impact.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the thing about Dickens, I did a play about Dickens, I didn't know this, it's tangential to our conversation.
[SPEAKER_04]: But Dickens rediscovered Christmas, or at least the celebration of Christmas.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Christmas was not a big holiday in the Christian calendar up until 1850s.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when Dickens began to write Christmas Carol and other things where people celebrated Christmas,
[SPEAKER_04]: people went, oh, that looks good.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's do that, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's celebrate Christmas with a tree and tinsel and party and drinking and that wasn't there prior to 1854.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow, I just not know that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It used to make.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: All righty here we go story by Daniel Keys Moran and Lynn Barker tell a play by our good friend Robert he would wolf Directed by Alex Anderson singer guest stars Rosalind Charles Kaco
[SPEAKER_01]: Margo Rose as Kapar Rind, Hanahate as Malio Bryan, F.J.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rio as Muniz and Craig Wassen as E. Char.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kostar's duty-derand as computer voice, I thought Major did all of that, but I guess she did she must have been busy or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, trivia time, Daniel Keys Moran and Lynn Barker pitch this story during season one of DS9.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robert Hewitt Wolf, who was a big fan of the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: He tried to persuade Michael Pillar to buy the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Pillar was not interested.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robert tried again during season three, pillar refused again.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was season four that he would wolf plated his case to Iris Stephen Bear, who agreed to buy the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to me, it's sort of like talking talking to mom, mom, mom, and finally, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me ask Dad and see if Daniel let this happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it took a little while.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, it fits right in with what Ira wanted to do, which is expand the relationship, or deal with the relationship of Dr. Bashir and Miles O'Brien.
[SPEAKER_04]: So as much as this is a Colomini centric episode and it is, and he does an incredible job.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is also about the relationship between Julian and Miles.
[SPEAKER_01]: The character of each R was not in the original pitch, but added by Robert Hewitt Wolf.
[SPEAKER_01]: While writing the tell play there was a bit of a disagreement on how to best use each R, Wolf felt that each R should only appear in flashbacks and Ron Moore thought that each R should only be used in O'Brien's present day hallucinations.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the end, they compromised and used the character in both past and present.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's critical to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's critical that he was a real person in this simulation, or not a real person, but he was a, we know, we know what you mean.
[SPEAKER_02]: That miles experienced him as a real person and a simulation, because to me,
[SPEAKER_02]: uh... he was sentenced to 15 years he ended up being there 20 cycles and i kept wondering why why did he choose to extend or why was it if it was 15 years was the sentence and then i realized at least i interpreted that they kept him going in the cycles until he they broke his humanity they broke him in some way
[SPEAKER_02]: and by killing a good friend, someone who that they had caused him such deep pain that they broke his humanity and then a week or two later they let him go.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just in that story.
[SPEAKER_02]: To me, I thought that was critical that he'd be in that simulation so that then he could be sort of an analogy or a metaphor for the relationship with Bashir later on.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that sounds absolutely right.
[SPEAKER_04]: This my nitpick, not with you at all, but um, if that's true, and I believe it is.
[SPEAKER_04]: If the crime is espionage, why do you have to break the prisoner spirit?
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: how the sentence fit the crime.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, unless it's just pure, you know, sadism, it's just pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: We think you did something really bad, so you're gonna have to suffer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's tough.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, so that, that's just the tiny, tiny, and I only nitpick because of what you just said, because I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: to me that that's why it's in critical that that character be in the simulation and in his hallucinations later on that that character is just burned in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did have that question.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he was sent into 15 cycles, why was he there for 20?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that answers it a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: They kept
[SPEAKER_01]: They kept him at 15.
[SPEAKER_01]: He hadn't been broke yet, and he had to keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes perfect sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, Robert Hewitt Wolf's wife, Celeste, who works as a psychotherapist, and is a licensed family counselor, served as an unofficial consultant on this script, which is pretty awesome, I think.
[SPEAKER_01]: This episode comprises one of the many episodes that
[SPEAKER_01]: Iris, even bear sums up the rationale for these episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Quote, every year we like to drive O'Brien totally mad.
[SPEAKER_01]: We did it with whispers, we did it with tribunal and visionary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is, this is just a theme.
[SPEAKER_01]: They love to break down the O'Brien, make it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And mainly because he's such a fabulous actor that he can handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's another reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a very good reason.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I must point out, he suffered once a year.
[SPEAKER_04]: My character suffered every episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kid and we will get to it, but I have the time I keep because we talk about Robbie How with Voyager, there's no, you know, every episode stands alone, nothing really tracks, you know, and how bias line is so awesome because it tracks, the only thing that doesn't track,
[SPEAKER_01]: is cork, because at some point we saw Cisco warm up to cork and understand cork more and it seemed like cork is one of the two back to the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you fall back to the same trope.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like crazy doing this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets reset.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's groundhog day for how they treat a cork on this shop fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like, we don't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're on your side.
[SPEAKER_04]: Speaking for cork and I often do, thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your corks number one spokesperson.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you can say it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: In the UK, in the United Kingdom, this is one of only two deep space nine episodes to receive a 15 certificate.
[SPEAKER_01]: What that means is sort of, you know, how we have PG 13 and movies, 15 certificates, you have to be 15 or older if you're younger than that, you have to have parental supervision.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is one of two.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think the content of this, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: PTSD, you put it in your poem, it's absolutely right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so heavy that you do need some type of a warning, I feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, for sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other bit of trivia is that this is actually the very final deep space line episode directed by Alex Singer.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess he's sort of focusing on Voyager at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he came over to us for quite a few.
[SPEAKER_01]: He did a ton of ours and that would have been like this, I think this one aired in 1996, so that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: one of our principal, or one of our main directors on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a couple of years he did a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: One last piece of trivia.
[SPEAKER_04]: Two of the guest stars, Craig Washington and Margo Rose, are both composers, highly gifted and awarded composers.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's just a coincidental.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so we start off in this kind of cave cell.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very primitive.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see from behind an old man sitting on the ground, drawing in the sand, a pattern in the sand, and
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we hear a bell, a warning claxon kind of bell sound, and they say decontamination is about to start, and this light sort of sweeps across, we still haven't seen this face.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it sweeps across, it ruins his sand art, which was very sad, because it was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it decontaminates him, and then we hear that he's free, that he did, he was supposed to do 15 cycles, but he did 20.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he doesn't know where he should go, and they shock him, and they throw him out into this bright light.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when did we see it was miles of Brian by the way?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's when the door opens.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not until the door opens.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't see him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: say I blew through it in my narration because it was not it was not a moment and I feel like it should that reveal should have been a moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, we do see miles has this long gray beard this long.
[SPEAKER_02]: hair this guard or whatever says you were supposed to be here for 15 cycles, but you've been here for 20 is time for you to go and he has no where he would go.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, where do I go?
[SPEAKER_02]: What do I do with my life?
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, they throw him out into the bright light.
[SPEAKER_02]: I like the contrast by the way, the bright light and the cave set.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was very cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, why is he being decontaminated?
[SPEAKER_01]: And it says all offenders.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't say just, you know, prisoner number whoever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't for him to leave that thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was everyone's getting decontaminated.
[SPEAKER_01]: But what are they being decontaminated for?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that groan that he'd has, it's not, it's literally when it passes through his body, like it's painful as it goes through him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like you read it as he groaned because his artwork got knocked out of there, but I thought it was because his body felt some type of... That's what I thought was from the artwork.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I agree with Garrett.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was the beam pet.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was going to be bashing through, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then at that point, the question remains, what the heck is he being?
[SPEAKER_01]: Does he have like space, life?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Where did they go to the bathroom?
[SPEAKER_01]: Where did he get that?
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a primary.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a great question.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm going to say it, maybe they're decontamining.
[SPEAKER_02]: You just do it where you're in your litter box.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's why I was saying it on the ground for the litter box.
[SPEAKER_02]: I see.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is all.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank God we're having this discussion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we need to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's thrown it into the light and suddenly we cut into this treatment room, this medical bay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But before we get there, I just, very quickly.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want a shout out to the hair department.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we never talk about the hair department here.
[SPEAKER_04]: That hair department which sort of helped signify how long time was in the prison, by how long Miles' hair was or how long his beard was, I thought the hair department did it in an incredible job of doing that and you know, sometimes his beard is red, sometimes it's white, I thought they did a great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: 1,000% a lot of times in productions when you see that type of passage of time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You sit there and you think immediately, that is a wig.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Looking at O'Brien in this episode, very realistic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could give Dan Haggerty and BJ in the bear, run for their money if they were to do a remake of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just looked amazing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And remembering column from way back when I'm sure he wasn't happy about code through that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it helped tremendously column, so get used to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was thinking I was going to bring it up later, but since we're talking about it, I was thinking from a production standpoint.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't always shoot in sequence, correct?
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, often the way the schedule is, you jump around.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I imagine that they shot this part of the story in chronological order because they had to keep adding to the beard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: You wouldn't want to take it away.
[SPEAKER_02]: You'd want to start with in clean shaven.
[SPEAKER_02]: Then,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, or in the first scene, I think he was clean-chaven and then the next time he had a bit of stubble and then the next time he had the beginnings of the beard.
[SPEAKER_02]: So every time they shot a scene,
[SPEAKER_02]: They had to stop, move on to the next scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: He had 20, 30 minutes in the chair to get the beard at least.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the wig.
[SPEAKER_02]: So your right arm and the hair and makeup department had to hustle not only do a good job, but they had to do it very quickly because they probably shot all of this in sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we're in the treatment room.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's screaming.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wakes up.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the Argrathi aliens removes these electrodes on fastens him and they say there.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's done.
[SPEAKER_02]: All done.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kira is there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Guards are there.
[SPEAKER_02]: and a grothy, I guess, security person tells him that only a few hours of past, because he thinks it's, he wakes up, he says it's been 20 years and Kira looks exactly the same, but the guard goes, no, only a few hours of past.
[SPEAKER_02]: We did all this simulation in a couple hours.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love how sci-fi that concept is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just to think about somebody serving a full 20-year sentence in three hours that condensed craziness of it is so sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it reminds me, Robbie, of your episode, Exposed Factor being convicted of falsely living, having to re-let, yeah, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you feel that at all when you were watching this?
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think about that, but yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miller, kind of.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, justice.
[SPEAKER_04]: And what I was struck by watching the whole episode is that's the last sci-fi thing that really happens in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, everything else could be in modern day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it wouldn't make a one bit of difference.
[SPEAKER_04]: True.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is one of the least science fiction episodes that we ever did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, a very powerful one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, very powerful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember Armin years ago when I was reading a screenwriting book that sort of broke down genres and the way that the screenwriting book said one of the rules of science fiction as a genre is that some technology or science imagined or real.
[SPEAKER_02]: had to instigate the plot and had to solve the plot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Had to be involved in both the start of the problem and the solution to the problem.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's interesting because you write the technology or sci-fi part of this.
[SPEAKER_02]: It starts the plot, but it doesn't solve it.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's the end of it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, sci-fi has nothing to do with the rest of the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, nothing, except we go to a station in space, but that doesn't really count.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's really a really powerful look into a man's psyche or a woman's psyche.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if the effects of dealing with PTSD.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's funny that you say that now I almost will change my missing scene for later on when we discuss the bonus material because that's interesting, yeah, that's an interesting idea that you brought up that science, the side by of it, just is in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're on DS9, we're in the O'Brien family quarters and it's just going Kko and Kko obviously has a lot of questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: that O'Brien was a little curious about our gravity technology and he asked too many questions which led to the charge of espionage and being arrested and, you know, Kiko's extremely worried.
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, is there any way that these memories that they've implanted in him while he's been serving that time can they be removed?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Sisco says that the Argrathi claim that it's impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: can't be removed, but Bashir will do his best to to help alleviate the symptoms.
[SPEAKER_01]: She wants to know when she can see him and Cisco says as soon as as soon as Bashir gives the okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, because says can these memories be removed and Cisco says no, it's impossible, but can people be hypnotized to forget things like even in our world, not the sci-fi world,
[SPEAKER_02]: can't you, couldn't you hypnotize somebody?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, if you could do that, and they came up with that, we wouldn't have this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, would we?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if that's a treatment for PTSD.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if there's, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just asking the question, but I wonder if there's in the real world, a way to kind of
[SPEAKER_04]: But we're certainly told in other TV episodes, not of this show, but of other shows that gradually buried memories come to the surface.
[SPEAKER_02]: Resurface, that's true, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also feel like in the sci-fi world in the trek world that maybe if they can't remove the memory, could they place another memory on top of that memory to sort of suppress the other memory that the Argrothi make it a positive memory.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, and that was a tickle fight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was a pillow, it was a pillow fight that they did and that was in the world.
[SPEAKER_04]: And a nitpick that I read online was in other episodes, not just of our show, sons of Moe, for instance, and other and TNG and perhaps even Voyager episodes, memories are erased from people, and that happens quite often in the Star Trek franchise, so why couldn't they do it here?
[SPEAKER_04]: This was a nitpick that I read about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even read that, but I felt that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt like it doesn't even take sci-fi to go, oh, there's gotta be ways to deal with traumatic experiences, whether it's
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hypnotism, medication, replacing it with a new memory that I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: There seems like there must be techniques.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we cut into the runabout, there's miles of Kira coming back.
[SPEAKER_02]: The coming through the wormhole, and he's just talking about how it all feels so real.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Kira says it was just a dream.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's not real.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's real is right in front of you and he looks out of the station.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a wonderful moment here where he...
[SPEAKER_02]: thinks the station is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is for God how beautiful it was.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is a gorgeous shot of the station when I've never seen before.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now I do have a question about Kira.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was she doing during the hours that he was subjugated?
[SPEAKER_04]: Obviously they'd gone to the Gamma Quad and together.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or she was nearby and was able to pick him up really quickly.
[SPEAKER_04]: but I got the impression that they had gone together.
[SPEAKER_04]: What was she doing?
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, why wasn't she making a fuss about, you can't do that to my compatriot here?
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me give you a little anti-nipic, sir.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm going to say that it because my brain was thinking that, then I thought, oh, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: They came, they arrived on that planet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kira went to go do something with someone else, and then he went to go inspect as an engineer.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's some other part of that planet, and they were apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she had no clue that he had been arrested.
[SPEAKER_01]: None of that until she started looking around.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, what's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that, by that time,
[SPEAKER_01]: It's too late.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's over there.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's over there.
[SPEAKER_02]: home, and she seemed like she had been waiting for him for 20 years, as opposed to two hours.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, she's usually, here is a fighter, and she didn't seem to have any fight in her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She seemed to be like the energy level.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just, I thought that was a mistake.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think
[SPEAKER_02]: Her character would have been peaking right about now if she had been arguing for this is not fair This is not right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like her energy sort of matched miles is sort of exhausted Delirious energy and I I thought that was strange to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got the feeling she hadn't been told what he had gone through Yeah, and was being kind to him.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was being and this happens all through the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: She was being a good friend to him
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think the level matching is just coincidental and then that got you on that path Robbie where you're like wait a minute She's that doesn't say I'm right, but I really felt like it was her guilt that she felt she wasn't there to protect him It was how bad she felt and she just wanted to really just sort of be nice since
[SPEAKER_01]: calm and easy with him because she realizes he just went through 20 years of prison in two hours, you know, and she felt like crap because I was going to say in this scene that last when a Brian says I forgot and how beautiful it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Kira's final line in the scene is come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get you home like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was the most caring that I've heard Kira ever be to anybody on the show.
[SPEAKER_01]: up to this point and I loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really loved it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm going to agree to I'm going to disagree on what you know your take was and not to say that it wasn't valid but I took it a whole completely different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh no I'm sticking with my point of view.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that I think that honestly this was the beginning of a lot of tone matching that I think hurts this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it actually undermines
[SPEAKER_02]: the amazing performance of calm because when everyone's tone matching that way, his experience doesn't seem special.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like the scene with Cisco, and I'm jumping ahead.
[SPEAKER_02]: When Cisco is tough on him,
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you did this, you got in a fight with Quark, you got in a fight with, you know, and you're dismissed, you're relieved of duty.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I liked that energy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was not tone matching to where everybody's playing this whadiness of the same experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here's not having that experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Here's not having that experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles is having that experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so,
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, and this is a directorial or maybe in the writing, but I would have tried to
[SPEAKER_02]: makes miles as experience more special by not having everybody playing the same kind of energy level and there was a lot of that for me that and the story's amazing and column's performance is amazing but I thought the tone matching generally to me just undermine the power of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right well from your comments it sounds like you're referring to Bashir also having that tone matching later scenes too so yeah okay that's
[SPEAKER_01]: Robbie, don't matching no fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armine and I are going to say, we're just fine with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we're in the airlock and Bashir, you know, welcomes chief back.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a tone matching for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, this is me thinking he's being a good friend and trying to like this guy went through.
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I get it, but it feels like the same strategy
[SPEAKER_02]: are taking from the beginning of our story to the end of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you know, Armin, you know, as a director, when you work with actors and you want to have to have an arc.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to have an arc.
[SPEAKER_02]: You want, yes, you want some variety that the characters start with one strategy or one intention.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they,
[SPEAKER_02]: hit an obstacle, and now they have to change their intention and their strategy.
[SPEAKER_02]: This felt like the same strategy from almost all the characters throughout most of the episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that, to me, was undermining the power of this story.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yes, this was a very quiet scene when they welcomed them in.
[SPEAKER_04]: I see what you're saying, Robbie, and I do understand what when you mention the change, that's crucial to any good performance.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I will also say, from my own life experience,
[SPEAKER_04]: when I hear when I come to a friend and say how are you and they say oh I just lost a limb or I have cancer or I've been diagnosed with glaucoma or something all of a sudden I change because I'm now trying to exhibit sympathetic feelings towards that person so I'm I'm with Garrett on this I think they're just trying to be friends which is an essential ingredient of this episode of friendship
[SPEAKER_02]: That is 100% true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, this is very quiet scene that welcome him back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles asked about Kiko in the scene, but Bashir says, I didn't want a lot of people here to welcome you back.
[SPEAKER_02]: Didn't want to overwhelm you.
[SPEAKER_02]: A brand says doctors orders.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bashir says absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this a different airlock?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why does it look different to me?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I did look like a little different.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did they revamp the entire station airlock?
[SPEAKER_01]: Not likely.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like I just just they looked a little different.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: in the color scheme.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what upset.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, they take a walk down the corridor, Bashir asks about the prison, and O'Brien says, I was alone, completely alone all by myself, because Bashir says, was anyone there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have a friend or anything?
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hear.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's a liar.
[SPEAKER_02]: we couldn't do a flashback and we see O'Brien when he's first thrown into the cell.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's an alien there.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's each hour.
[SPEAKER_02]: Each hour gives him a piece of fruit.
[SPEAKER_02]: First he squeezes some juice onto his mouth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Was it his mouth?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was his mouth.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he had it from the makeup he had been roughed up before he was.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Blood and things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm my initial thought was he squeezed it as, you know, just all over his.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it looked like he had been dehydrated and needed liquid.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was my take on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: All right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's the Cheelosh fruit, which is
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, known throughout the galaxy to revive you from a torture session.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you want some Cheelosh fruit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've got a whole refrigerator here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's good.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have some cold pressed Cheelosh fruit juice in my fridge.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, he, uh, he gives him the piece of fruit to eat.
[SPEAKER_02]: They start to talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: We do hear this voice, the announcer say.
[SPEAKER_02]: All offenders refusing to comply with the dormancy period will be subject to habitat reprogramming.
[SPEAKER_02]: They talk.
[SPEAKER_02]: as they're kind of getting to know each other and HR says he's been there for six cycles.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is where O'Brien says six years, he asks.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he charges, yes, I know, I wonder, it's a wonder I'm not insane, but you find ways to survive.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when a Brian says he's in for espionage, he charges, oh, we're going to be here together a long, long time.
[SPEAKER_04]: And doesn't he surmise it's a different charge?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he has sedition.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what he says.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sedition, he goes espionage, which is, you know, a little bit of a different charge, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: but both hold very long sentences clearly.
[SPEAKER_01]: The button on the of the scene is Echar says, hello, myos, welcome to hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he wasn't alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: We cut back out to the corridor with O'Brien and Bashir walking and talking.
[SPEAKER_02]: O'Brien reiterates completely alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nobody was there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that is the mystery that pervaged the rest of the episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, why?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is he keeping Echar a secret?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, could why actually, I had the same thought but right now it occurred to me why because he killed him?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: But we have to watch the episode to find out.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't understand that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know, I'm piecing to get there all the bars.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I kept thinking, why isn't he telling anybody about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, so here's a question.
[SPEAKER_01]: So each R is implanted into his brain as a,
[SPEAKER_01]: as a way to get him to break him in a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is not a real alien character.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's all a character.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just created by the prison guards basically, his prisoners, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: His prisoners, the people that are keeping him in captivity.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not an actual real person, but it was just all ultimately to get him to befriend him and then freak out and end up
[SPEAKER_01]: killing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, thanks to Robbie, that's make sense, but I certainly didn't think that and the two times that I watched this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't quite know why he was there, but Robbie's explanation earlier about breaking and now it makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: That makes sense to me because of the timeline too, because he says, you know, a week or two after I killed him, they let me out.
[SPEAKER_04]: So this is why each heart doesn't appear to be a stool pigeon.
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't seem to be there to ask questions about the espionage.
[SPEAKER_04]: He doesn't do that ever in the episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I thought, well, why is he there?
[SPEAKER_04]: Why do they put him in a brain?
[SPEAKER_04]: But Robby's explanation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Does that make sense to me?
[SPEAKER_02]: Makes sense to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we go to the promenade.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've got Bashir.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Kaco walking and talking, I just want to say, I don't think I've ever seen the upper level shot like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was two cameras simultaneously on long lenses at different parts of the promenade.
[SPEAKER_02]: The A camera probably captured the first half of it, and then they exited that when they got too close and stepped into the B camera, Longland shot, which then continued to the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: I bet this was a wonder, two long lens cameras, great depth of field on those lenses, great foreground stuff happening.
[SPEAKER_02]: I loved it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would venture to say this is the only time we get a really good image vision of the upper walkway in the Promenade.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the length of it, the length of it, it is huge, it is huge.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I don't think they walked the entire length.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think they walked from where the bend is, at one end of the station, excuse me, one end of the sound stage, to, I would say, three quarters of the way, along one of the pathways.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there are pathways on both sides of the upper promenade.
[SPEAKER_02]: It looks beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_02]: I'll also, I'm going to be a little more critical maybe of this episode than you guys.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love Alex Singer.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was great on our show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think this is Alex's best episode as a director, but this shot phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like one of the best looking prom and shot, you know, shots scenes I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_04]: And one of the things that Alex did or the production did, there is a ton of background people in this episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's this a great sense of life on the station.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking at your notes, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're talking about this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems slower pace.
[SPEAKER_01]: Dialogue than usual.
[SPEAKER_01]: You wanted to have some more pace throughout the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a change gears.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like the life on the station, especially that scene where cork is so busy, later on, trying to sort of drink that there is pace there, it's just that dialogue is slower, and I feel like it's partially there because the subject matter is so heavy that they can't be too in your face with it, so I'm okay with it in terms of not having the pace in the dialogue, but in the actual life of the station, the pace is there, I feel.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I think this is, I mean, I found the pace of this to be sort of one note and I would put that on the, in the lap of Alexander to be honest because whenever I direct or look at an episode I always look at contrast, especially between scenes or between characters like if I end a scene in a, in a suspenseful note, maybe I want to pop back into the next scene with some,
[SPEAKER_02]: Fast lines at the top, just to feel that change of gears and transition.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel like this just never changed gears.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was often sort of kind of pace the same, tonally the same.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're seen in the bar, Armin, was not.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were popping, but I can't think of another scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Jake, and I'm giving away future scenes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Jake's energy was different.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think Cisco's energy was different.
[SPEAKER_02]: But for the most part, it was kind of,
[SPEAKER_02]: there was a lot of the sameness, a lot of the same tone, the same pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the scene where Bashir is basically walking with Kako, giving her the medical point of view of this, and says that there's not much I can do.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's experienced these memories like they were real.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was a very sophisticated simulation, and Bashir says, you know, I think he's going to be okay because he's been through terrible things before in his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: The war at Selik III, the time he was a prisoner
[SPEAKER_02]: Paradans, um, the trial on Cardassia Prime, like he talks about all these things miles his survived.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's going to be fine.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how the dialogues written, but honestly, even though the shot was beautiful, the pace of this conversation was in that sort of slowness that I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: I found it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have a problem with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like Bashir's basically saying he's going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, this is serious, but don't worry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it would have been nice if he had been
[SPEAKER_02]: energetically, sort of more optimistic, and reassuring, so that when it's not okay,
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's my debate.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a very good point.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you know, it would have made, uh, since performance a little bit stronger if he had done that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I understand his sympathy for his friend and not wanting to step on sore toes, I get that, um, and I have no problem with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But here, he's dealing with the wife and it's got to be a different tone.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I, I think you're absolutely right about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's going to be okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm reassuring you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worry.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's been through worse.
[SPEAKER_04]: She can play it as though oh my god, you know, but but he can be the doctor, which is yet.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have the stage four cancer and we have treatments for this and he's got to play the doctor there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, opposed to paying the the the friend that's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go into the infirmary.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles is still very numb, very in shock PTSD.
[SPEAKER_02]: He decides to go to the replicator and ask for some
[SPEAKER_02]: delicious chillash fruit that he had in prison.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the replicator is like, what?
[SPEAKER_02]: What's chillash fruit?
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: The replicator asks for specifications.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Brian's like, I don't know any specifications.
[SPEAKER_02]: Forget about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cancel it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But here comes in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, actually, he hears the door sound.
[SPEAKER_02]: He looks over and it's each are.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's thrown for a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when he looks back over, it's Kiko.
[SPEAKER_01]: The specifications line, I just, it's taking me to the Voyager pilot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom Paris, hot plane, tomato soup.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's best to find the exact type of this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have a little problem.
[SPEAKER_04]: I actually enjoyed the fact that
[SPEAKER_04]: For once, the replicator didn't know how to replicate.
[SPEAKER_04]: I didn't see him behind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love, and that was great.
[SPEAKER_04]: It seemed like from the comms performance that this was the first time he'd ever experienced a replicator not being able to do something.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it just seemed to me, well, that's not really logical or probable, that it can't always make things up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because it does need specifications, and I'm not sure everything is explained to the replica.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anyway, I did like the, it not being able to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So then the question in my mind is, is this a real fruit?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, is this a such a foreign fruit?
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, it's from the Gamma Quadrant.
[SPEAKER_04]: So of course, an Alpha Quadrant
[SPEAKER_04]: But was it a real fruit that that's the question that popped into my mind?
[SPEAKER_04]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it seems it seems like even in our world if I typed into AI Describe chillash fruit to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would have some information in an online.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would say, oh chillash fruit You mean this stuff referred to on Star Trek Deepjays 9?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, well it's a
[SPEAKER_02]: Bruty red fruit, it would have some information, even R-A-I, so it seems like a replicator would know something.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the fact that he asks for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, it's failure.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he's still dealing with that reality, which I thought was a very good thing for the riders to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Agreed, great detail.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go into the O'Brien's quarters.
[SPEAKER_02]: O'Brien is cutting up his food, dividing in into two piles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go back to the replicator for just a second.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love talking about the replicator.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is O'Brien, and I don't have an answer for this.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's been told that all of that was false, that all of that was an memory implanted into his mind.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is he testing to find out if any of it was real?
[SPEAKER_04]: I did, I never thought of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought I was more of a sentimental family.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, all of those can be true, but another take on it could have been, was it real or was it not real?
[SPEAKER_04]: No, we don't know what that is.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's a great point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do feel like this scene is to set up the beginning of the pattern that he is so used to a certain ritual
[SPEAKER_01]: of that 20-year cycles that he served.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is one of the rituals eating Chilosh fruit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another is separating the food that happens later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another is sleeping.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just showing how much he was that overtook his entire life in a way.
[SPEAKER_01]: As it would, as it would, exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But good point though.
[SPEAKER_02]: Good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting detail.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When he finally realizes that it's not HR and that it's Kko, he hugs her.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're embracing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when he says, you're pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: He forgot that she was pregnant when he, you know, when he left the station, because he's been in his head.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been 20 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't even remember that Kko was pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, what a, what a, what a number that that brain implanted on him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if you watch Columns reaction to that hug really quite brilliant, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He starts out not sure who he's hugging.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then realizes, you know, it is Kiko, it's his wife, and it's a warm embrace.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a lovely choice, an acting moment by Columini.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Kate go with the end of the scene and says, it's okay, Miles, everything's going to be all right.
[SPEAKER_02]: A nice warm moment between the two of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now we go to the awkward dinner in the O'Brien's quarters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles is cutting up his food.
[SPEAKER_02]: Molly wants to color, and he says, maybe in a little while, she heads off.
[SPEAKER_02]: to put her plate in the replicator, which was in a nice little, I like that visual effect where she drops the plate off.
[SPEAKER_02]: She kind of steps back.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see it get cleaned up and disappear and then she moves on.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's something we haven't seen though.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember seeing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was shocked.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, goodness gracious, even the plate was replicated.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that means all of it goes back in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one has the dishes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get a replicator dish washer.
[SPEAKER_04]: Matter is neither destroyed nor created.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a, it's transferred from one form to the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but again, on Voyager, no one put their coffee.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never saw a place back in.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, we never did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And on DS9 before this, we never saw anyone.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it's a, and I would venture to say we'll never see we'll never see even after this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to see it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, cool thing that we got to see the cool little moment, and then Kaco has mentioned that Miles is going to talk with counselor, tell her, tell nori, tell her, tell nori, I've never heard of this counselor on this, no, no, no, the counselor, tell nori gets a lot of shoutouts in this episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: He does, she never, she does, never mad him or her, yeah, we, I don't think we're, they do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, we never meet them.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, but a very important off camera character, this episode, yes, and then Kiko does kind of call out that he's splitting up his food, and he tells talks to Kiko about how he had to ration his food to survive because sometimes they wouldn't deliver food for days or even weeks.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now he does reveal his past history to her.
[SPEAKER_04]: What I did miss was what columns reaction to being discovered doing something that didn't make sense in this arena.
[SPEAKER_04]: What I would have liked of scene was
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and he did a little, but I wanted a little bit more of, oh, yeah, that's what I used to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: I shouldn't be doing that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't need to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Embarrassment or embarrassment or something as opposed to just sadness that he had about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He explains why he did it back in his prison simulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kiko says that's horrible and he says, yeah, you just get used to it after 20 cycles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure you are used to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where you jump back into another flashback where we see each are wrapping up some food in a piece of cloth and sort of hiding it away.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is when we see columns beard.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is where I was talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: I bet each of these scenes, this is the first time we see the beard from the clean shave and flashback.
[SPEAKER_02]: So having to do that between every set up, I'm sure column was not happy.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, I'm sure he wasn't.
[SPEAKER_04]: And also for production wise, I mean, you write about the beard, but it's also to shorten the amount of days that they're using a West for, as a guest star, that you know, that they keep his days,
[SPEAKER_04]: in one pile.
[SPEAKER_04]: One chunk together.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well he's got the beard and each our hides this food that he's separated.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles asked how did each our survive and each our shows him for the first time this sandart is drawing in the sand.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when Miles tries it, each of our sort of laughs, he says you look like a read-a-hawk picking at a corpse, starts making noises.
[SPEAKER_02]: Cook on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does make fun of him when he's doing the interior work.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when he says, this is a good spot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Start by drawing a circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Brian, I'm not going to say, oh, Brian, I'm going to say, call me niece circle was so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, did you, did you have a hidden protractor in your hand?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how did you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was so perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, my goodness, I almost want to see if Colin Meaney has done any type of artwork at all in his life just to see what he's come up with.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, very precise circle.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very good.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I have a nitpick about the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Could you see the stage floor underneath it?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did later on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, did you really?
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_04]: You caught that one.
[SPEAKER_04]: OK.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they can draw on the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: They can do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's important to the scenes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yet, when they show us the floor of the cell, when there isn't a drawing, I never see any footsteps in the sand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: That sand is perfect.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, I understand that we saw this in the very top of the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: Some beam comes in and smooths the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: But certainly before the beam comes in, there should be footprints in the sand for where they're walking around.
[SPEAKER_01]: The agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like, you know, in order for them to delineate between design and no design.
[SPEAKER_01]: Alex Singer is like, you know, or whoever was on set decorating was like, hey, let's clean up the rest of the sand, brush it, make it look perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was once or twice when I saw them walking in the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't see them creating footprints in the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think what they did the
[SPEAKER_04]: And maybe that's why you saw the production floor underneath the sand.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe it was a thin patene of sand where they walked and a larger amount of sand where they drew.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I wonder who was in charge of sweeping up the sand, by the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's job with that a bit?
[SPEAKER_02]: Who's the sailor?
[SPEAKER_02]: Robert.
[SPEAKER_04]: Robert.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_02]: sweep the sand.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did like Echars to silliness playfulness in this scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: He starts, you know, imitating the Rita Hawk picking at a corpse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Echard does say, after six years in this place, either have to laugh or go insane.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I prefer to laugh.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's when they say, dormancy period.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was because of Brian asked, like, how can you laugh at this point in this
[SPEAKER_02]: laugh or going saying and then it's lights out time and we cut into a Brian's bedroom where we see cake-host sleeping in the bed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, as the camera moves a little, we see no miles is there.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, whereas miles he's sleeping on the floor, as you talked about Garrett.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was so sad seeing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt bad watching this scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very sweet moment from Kiko.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's trying to, she doesn't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, she doesn't know how to help him.
[SPEAKER_02]: So just put a blanket over him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, then she did all that she could do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, wake him up and put him back in the bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, put the duvet on him.
[SPEAKER_04]: It would have been perhaps interesting, perhaps not, who knows, if he had been in a nightmare.
[SPEAKER_04]: As opposed to sounding placidly on the floor, if he had been in a nightmare, which is what what wakes her up, she realizes, you know, he needs some comfort and then just an extra
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, just I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That motivate that would motivate her waking up for sure because why she waking up in the middle of the night.
[SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't have any PTSD.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she should be sleeping perfectly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, a nightmare would have been great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We cut inside quarks next.
[SPEAKER_02]: We see O'Brien is there with worth.
[SPEAKER_02]: By the way, I want to comment, they did a very nice thing of putting every series regular, I think, in this episode, even for one scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is Worf's residual scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's playing darts with miles.
[SPEAKER_02]: I did like, Worf doesn't really understand the game of darts.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, what are you doing at a friendship?
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is, again, I said a leap motif in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because O'Brien doesn't remember the game.
[SPEAKER_02]: He even says to Worf, he's like, wait, do I need 117 or two, and Worf's like, I don't know, I don't know this game, but Worf does suggest maybe we should go kayaking in the hollow suite.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very kind.
[SPEAKER_02]: Worf.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very unlike Worf.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a variety of acknowledges that's a very good friend that Wurf is a very good friend for doing all this.
[SPEAKER_02]: But then a Ryan sees each R out in the promenade looking in.
[SPEAKER_02]: He runs out to the promenade, looks around, but each R's gone, and then Wurf follows him out there and says everything okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a Brian doesn't really say what it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: He said, oh, I just thought I saw someone I used to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like a ghost following him.
[SPEAKER_04]: They're does seem to be a similarity when each are appears for the most part.
[SPEAKER_04]: Once someone is being a friend to him, almost invariably, when there's an act of friendship, of kindness being done to a Brian, that's when each are seems to appear.
[SPEAKER_04]: I could be wrong, I sort of clocked that as I watched it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's great because even each are says to him at one point, he goes, well, why am I appear?
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I doing here?
[SPEAKER_02]: So that would make sense that this kind of this feeling of friendship, of caring for someone else or having a close relationship keeps triggering this memory because he was a good friend of his.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go inside the cargo bay.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the Jake scene, the Jake residual scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, we've seen sarak.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've got for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robbie, I got tired of every episode we record.
[SPEAKER_01]: And last bit of trivia.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sarak Lofton does not appear in this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been saying that episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, darn time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was so refreshing and you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my goodness, there is that heaviness to this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: And boy, to sarak bring a little bit of levity that we need right now for sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Without minimizing Miles's condition, correct?
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just, there's something very natural and real and kind about how Jake's energy is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's basically testing him, Miles is testing himself.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's going through all the tools and trying to remember what each tool does and Jake says, you know them all.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got them all, he goes through a bunch of tools and a Brian says, let's do it again.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he says, I don't want to be embarrassed in front of the repair crews and Jake's like, nobody's going to, nobody's going to care.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, you, you may be a little rusty, but you're still the chief.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's when O'Brien says, well, if I'm the chief,
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I say we go through this again, so they do it again, but I like the energy in the scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a very, yes, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: The rock is a phenomenal actor.
[SPEAKER_04]: The more I watch these episodes, the more I'm reminded of that.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's just incredible.
[SPEAKER_04]: So impressive.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would have liked the writers to the head of Brian, not get one right.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, great.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would have liked
[SPEAKER_04]: So, I mean, there's a moment where he says, don't tell me or Brian says, don't tell me, don't tell me and I would have liked maybe there to have known, guess wrong.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to be rough, to be reminded that 20 years has made a difference.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because instead of him saying, you know, sarak says, well, if you forget one, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we actually had him forget one, then sarak said, it's only one that you forgot.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: It could actually, you know, play it instead of, yeah, which would make, which would make it miles even more want to say, let's do it again.
[SPEAKER_04]: And although at this point, he should know, because it's the same weapons, but with the same instruments, but, but I would have loved it and forgotten one.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a great idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armand, you should have been the writer's consultant.
[SPEAKER_01]: The actor's consultant is what you should have thrown in a couple of things in there for them.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was too busy serving drinks at the time.
[SPEAKER_04]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so we're in kind of a Jeffrey's tube conduit area.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a ladder behind O'Brien.
[SPEAKER_02]: We tilt up off of the foreground panel.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's working on, and it's a great little transition until it's up to miles working.
[SPEAKER_02]: But my eyes went to the slowest ladder climbing background actor behind him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've never seen him my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, oh, what a nice shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is it got climbing so slowly?
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it was for noise or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that reminds me of, and then I didn't bring it up earlier, but that scene with Bashir and Miles just walking through the corridors the very beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the slowest walk I've ever seen on the head.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, it's slow, but you're right in this scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: This dude is like, please everyone, everyone, go watch this moment with that background actor climbing the ladder.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's low motion.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to go back and see if I can recognize which background person I
[SPEAKER_02]: Munez was in the foreground who I loved, by the way, this actor was so natural, he was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is where I'm going to disagree with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not like men to send this at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I thought he screwed up the good, keep up the good work, Cruman line.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just, because he said it as if his smile was demoted to Cruman.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was like, that's what I got and he was.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he's reading it.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you were Cisco or anyone else in authority, from someone who needed to go through a rehabilitation process, you wouldn't necessarily make them
[SPEAKER_01]: the boss you would say let's see what you can do and then we will then we will make a chief yes that's what I got out of that okay I don't have an argument with that at all he has to go through the basics again but he's still in my head he's still the chief no matter what because that's right you can't you can't get the motive because you got imprisoned falsely and now he didn't do anything to cause the emotion but he's going through the basics I felt like moon is sort of
[SPEAKER_01]: before work and Cruman, like keep up the good work, Cruman, like in terms of what you're saying is he should have teased him a bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he played a very, very serious, very serious.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was too earnest is what it was for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think it was a missed opportunity for a light-hearted moment, but in spite of that,
[SPEAKER_02]: that miss, which was not a big miss to me, if I generally his performance was really grounded and, yeah, I mean, it just overall very, very, really, I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I just, just that one point, that one line, keep up the good work, Roman.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's.
[SPEAKER_02]: Directoryly, if the director can isolate a joke, then the director could have said, hey,
[SPEAKER_02]: Mr. Monius actor, I know it was name, I forgot.
[SPEAKER_02]: But hey, Mr. Monius actor, there's a joke here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's try to have fun and play with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: T-Same a little F. J. Rio.
[SPEAKER_02]: F. J. Rio, hey F. J. Rio, there's a joke opportunity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's have a little fun with keep up the good work, Crumon, you know, it wouldn't have taken much, but that's a directorial detail that I think, that's why I say this wasn't my favorite, Alex Singer episode, although I love him.
[SPEAKER_02]: but there was a lot of little missed opportunities.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then opposed to going up the ladder slowly, I was impressed without quickly said, dude came down the ladder.
[SPEAKER_02]: You should have flew down the ladder.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_02]: He flies down, Bashir arrives, and he says Miles is skipping therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's supposed to be going to counselor, tell Nory, again, more mentions of this mystery counselor.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he's not showing up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles says, I just want to be left alone, I want to stop talking about prison all the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: All I ask is, for me to talk about prison, I want to talk about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, you know, one thing I didn't miss was your smugg superior attitude, Bashir, to stay away from me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a very sad.
[SPEAKER_02]: I felt bad for Julian to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: Talk to.
[SPEAKER_04]: Again, nitpick.
[SPEAKER_04]: Very, and I'm not, you know, Alex directed this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: Not me.
[SPEAKER_04]: I would have wanted call him to push this year.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I'm going to bring this up later.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I was what I missed was the violence
[SPEAKER_04]: that Miles could have been showing to his friends that makes him concerned that he can go too far.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which is what he did in the cell.
[SPEAKER_01]: So harsh words alone may not have been the most effective way to go about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: If some physicality, some blocking was included, I think it would have much more effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_02]: The great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have a moment with Miles in the turbo lift all by himself, and he says,
[SPEAKER_02]: but he's definitely feeling more and more, like he doesn't fit into this place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And in the turbo lift, he has another flashback, even bigger beard, each other says, ask about Kaco, he says, hey, tell me more about Kaco.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Miles react gets reactive to him in this flashback and ruins kicks his sand art.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then he loses it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's banging on the door.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says, I didn't do anything wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why am I in here?
[SPEAKER_02]: and then other prisoners start yelling and that guards voice says stop or you're gonna be disciplined and each our grabs him covers his mouth to protect him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you guys make any note of when when that announcement, they are graphe announcement when it says you will be disciplined what you just said, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_01]: O'Brien's response to that was I think very contemporary.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said discipline this and I was Oh, that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Started laughing at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very kind of contemporary slang.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very slimy.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't usually hear Star Trek characters go.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not so does this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, the newest tracks, Discovery, strange new worlds.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see that happening there, but not on our era of track.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so each our protects him here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and you mentioned computer voice?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: As a character, I bet Major did the computer voice on the station.
[SPEAKER_02]: I bet the computer voice credit that you read earlier is this computer voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, prison computer voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just a good to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good catch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: There was a scene scripted in the promenade right here with Odo and O'Brien having a brief exchange
[SPEAKER_02]: That was not in the episode that I watched.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't there?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's not there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk about the two lines there?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: You keep how you're doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: No Brian says I wish people would stop asking me that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry, I can't support everything's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just had a tough day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's not there at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not in the cut.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it was cut out.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they must have...
[SPEAKER_02]: filmed this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know I'm guessing here, but because you Robbie have been particularly pointing out that the slow pace of things that maybe they just ran out at a time.
[SPEAKER_04]: They had to cut something and and
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, Renee doesn't have to speak in order to get a residual.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, um, and he was at the bar, and he said the bar, and it's a very good look between, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh
[SPEAKER_02]: You got to black holes coming straight up.
[SPEAKER_02]: You got a synth nail, you got a bar full of people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bar full of people, you've got drinks going left and right.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like Tom Cruise in the movie cocktail.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay, so if you're going to put it that way, it may be the opening line from Quarque should have been.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never should have offered that to for one deal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Something like that, where I was like, why did I call this much business for myself and headache.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: it was busy.
[SPEAKER_04]: If it were me playing, if it, no, that's not the way to put that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was about to say, if I let me play moss, I don't mean it that way at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: If it were me, Armin, walking into a bar with that dark cloud hanging over me, the fact that everyone else was having a good time, I would be angry at everybody for having a good time when I was involved in my own thoughts.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe he was.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe was.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, Miles comes in.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants a drink.
[SPEAKER_02]: Work is really busy.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says hang on a sec.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Miles gets really impatient very quickly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he grabs quarks arm, twists it around, slams him down onto the bar, threatens him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Quark gives him a drink.
[SPEAKER_04]: But first, he says, I understand what you're going through.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there's some sympathy, even coming from Quark, about one point.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, what a Brian is going through.
[SPEAKER_02]: He says chief, just because your life's in a shambles right now, and then he gets his arm twisted even more.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK, fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm really happy with that, not for my character, but for watching the show.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to see that sort of violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, in yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm going towards all of his friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_01]: pushing Bashir, twisting your arm about threatening to break it, and then my point that I brought up later, which we will bring up again later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that would have been great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because I think that plays in to where it'll Brian eventually going 100% well a brand gets his drink he heads off to sit by himself in a corner and that's when each are a few appears again and Brian's like what each are what are you doing here and he sure says I've never really been gone and miles
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, reiterates the idea that you're not real each time.
[SPEAKER_02]: You were just in my head, you were a simulation.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're not a real person, and each has says, but I'm real to you, and that's what matters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's an important point in terms of this topic in these issues, is that like, people's experience, if it's real to them, it needs to be addressed and treated.
[SPEAKER_02]: This simulation was real to him, so yeah, they're treating it
[SPEAKER_02]: And they should.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were to extrapolate that to real real world situations, not sci-fi, when people are going through hard times, other people may be looking at what they think is hard, and they're thinking, you know what, that's not really that much of a big deal, but you have to realize that you don't know the backstory of each human being that you come across or even your relatives, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: They may have had some type of baggage that they're dealing with,
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it translates and it just gets worse and worse and worse, so they feel like they can't go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of times other people are looking around thinking, why did they get so upset about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: That was like nothing, but it was something to them to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why it's important.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: To listen whenever, even when someone is complaining about something that seems so trivial, but keep your ears open to hear that people are in pain and experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: You need me now more than ever, you know, you're the last thing I need, no, HR says you need me right now, you need me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, the mystery of this relationship and why he's not telling anybody about this experience he had seems to be even more mysterious at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, we go into the O'Brien's bedroom.
[SPEAKER_02]: I love he's getting dressed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He steps up.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's sitting at a table, getting dressed, and then he stands up to the mirror and suddenly he charges reflection.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's right there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I love that trick shot.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very simply done where the actor playing each other is probably just off camera loft.
[SPEAKER_02]: and as the camera moves up, he steps onto his marks so that he can be in that reflection.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very well done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So during this scene, that Swinsisco does call in and says, too, well, Brian, please report to my office.
[SPEAKER_01]: And O'Brien sort of like shakes off each other is like, look, I don't know why you're here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even care, but you know, he has to basically, he has to get through this.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's he keeps trying to avoid it and that is the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: He needs to face this head on and he's not doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had to Cisco's office and this is the scene where Cisco is basically told him that he needs to see
[SPEAKER_01]: the uh... the uh... the counter the uh... nori yeah tone ory who we have no clue who that is but still he needs to make an appointment he needs to go uh... listen to what per share has prescribed for him uh... and over i and is like no i i i i'm too busy to do that and the bottom line is Cisco threatens and he says uh... you're going to see the the counselor today uh... you've been relieved of duty
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you do not follow what pressure and the counselor say to you, you will be confined to the infirmary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're going to be basically put probably put behind some type of put back into jail.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what that's what I was thinking here.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, oh, you're going to solve this by giving him retraumatizing him with the same thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, the infirmary on Deep Space 9 is not very large.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not very large.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's pretty small.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: My legs in the scene too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he begs.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like, please, as a friend, you know, do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, there was a very powerful moment and a great choice by column where he just says, listen, as a friend, do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I really saw.
[SPEAKER_04]: and I'm reading into this, but the friendship of Colomini and Avery Brooks, they had a very strong friendship, and I really saw Colom playing on that friendship.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's awesome.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I liked this scene again.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just no one was tone matching here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like Cisco was playing his pace and tempo and energy and intention and I liked it a lot.
[SPEAKER_04]: What do you think Cisco's intention was?
[SPEAKER_04]: Because I did think something.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know that's an opaque sort of question.
[SPEAKER_04]: Instead of waiting for an answer, let me just give you my take.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was doing this on doctors' orders, that when it came to medical problems, he had to take a back seat to the doctor.
[SPEAKER_04]: Just as on the original program, sometimes bones was more in charge than you think.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Kirk was.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that the doctor said, this is a medical problem, he has to do this, and I am forced to into the position of saying, you have to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I may not agree with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I sometimes got that in Avery's performance that you didn't always agree with it.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I have to do it because that's the pecking order in this situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's happened in a prior episode, Arman, where the doctor said, as chief medical officer, and this is a medical issue, I am the highest ranking officer when it comes to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that was spoken before, but you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I like this scene a lot.
[SPEAKER_02]: O'Brien is pissed off.
[SPEAKER_02]: He heads out of ops, storming out, Dax tries to talk to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: She gets her residual scene here.
[SPEAKER_02]: She says, hey, I was wondering, I was going to the replemette.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was wondering, and he cuts her off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Not right now, Commander.
[SPEAKER_02]: He barks no, not interested.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gets on the lift.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tosses is communicator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now to further Armin's point,
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, these are just harsh words.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he physically sort of even elbow dacks where she, you know, fell back a bit, that would even that would have added even more to this, you know, but the whole thing of him just throwing that communicator, that is a physical act of aggression or violence, but it would not towards a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: right, not towards a friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's towards a piece of technology because he doesn't want to be followed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't want to be tracked.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, and again, to your point about this entire episode being about friendship, there needs to, we need to see how he's rebelling against that, how he's fighting against people that love him and care him, care for him the most, by having some blocking that shows that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel so.
[SPEAKER_02]: What a help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he does storm into the infirmary.
[SPEAKER_02]: He yells at Bashir.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bashir says, you need help.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm here to help you, but you need to take this help.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's when each R appears again and says, don't make the same mistake you made with me because a Brian says, I don't want your help Bashir.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's starting to get
[SPEAKER_02]: each her reminds him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is the scene where I agree with you, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel that Bashir was way too wide.
[SPEAKER_01]: His love was so, so calm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that this is the point where he should be toe to toe, you know, where he should when he when O'Brien says, how do you know what's best for me?
[SPEAKER_01]: You have no idea what I'm going for, Bashir.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're right, you were, there should have been some more more emotion here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that would have punctuated a lot better in this scene
[SPEAKER_01]: just to go toe to toe with him because he's about to flip out so much that and I feel Bashir would be raising his voice because he's fighting for his friend, you know, he's fighting for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So have a little bit of a contrast here and not be his calm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you could have had each arm, the ghost, being the calm tone in the scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would have been even creepier
[SPEAKER_04]: then to go to the end of the studio, yes, I wonder if the actors or the director or the producer or the writers who knows who said I don't we want O'Brien to be angry with his fellow actors, but don't cross the line.
[SPEAKER_04]: of being ugly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, maybe.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think, I think that's a wrong choice.
[SPEAKER_04]: I really wanted
[SPEAKER_04]: If he's going through this, and again, I'm thinking of that scene with the phaser, if he's going to go to there, then I need him to be ugly, so that he realizes how ugly he's been.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, we go to the promenade next.
[SPEAKER_02]: Echar is there, as where he's going.
[SPEAKER_02]: Echar says, let me help you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, go back, go back to Bashir.
[SPEAKER_02]: He wants to help you, too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Let us help you.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he basically says we're both your friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Miles says, you know, look what happened to you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't go back to the shares, look, look what happened to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is exactly what I'm talking about.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's, it's lines like that, where I look what happened to you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got, I got overly emotional and I hurt you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I killed you and find that out.
[SPEAKER_04]: I haven't seen that with the other characters, except with quark and quarks
[SPEAKER_04]: I want him to have really gotten close to hurting other people because he did hurt each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: Each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of pace here, though, Robbie, with the, uh, we every single turn of of this has entered.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because each, each are keeping popping up everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt it was popping kind of a pacing kind of that you wanted.
[SPEAKER_01]: It got better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was, this was a good sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: heading somewhere.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't know where he's going or what he's doing, but he's kind of losing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And each judge just keeps popping up.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was a nice sci-fi and not really sci-fi.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it's an imaginary friend that just keeps popping up.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, a vision, but it was a good pace.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles says, leave and each her says, well, there's some part of you that keeps bringing me here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm, I'm just in your head and you're, you're the one that keeps bringing me here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a Brian turns around here and that's when each our disappears.
[SPEAKER_02]: So whatever each our just said, you know, send me away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't you see if I'm coming back?
[SPEAKER_02]: It's because part of you keeps bringing
[SPEAKER_04]: And he clocks that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He clocks that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's good.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's very good.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go into a Brian's quarters.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was an odd staging to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: The camera was sort of panning Kiko as she walked towards the front door and then suddenly the door opens with miles there as if she just expected.
[SPEAKER_02]: She anticipated him to come.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was a weird blocking.
[SPEAKER_02]: I. Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: She expected Miles just to open the door, right at the time, the camera paned over with her.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants to know, where were you?
[SPEAKER_02]: He said, I've been just been walking.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been thinking, and Molly says she wants to show him her drawings.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Kiko's got questions, things sort of start escalating the energy in the room, which was nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was his experience of chaos and and he loses it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He yells he lunges it morally tells her, you know, not right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kiko's very upset by this Molly starts crying, Kiko picks her up, and a Bryan realizes he got close to hurting his child.
[SPEAKER_01]: Garrett, now's the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for me, this is a scene that definitely needs to be in this episode, but blocking wise.
[SPEAKER_01]: He got aggressive by standing up and raising his voice, and that's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: The lunge never happened really towards Little Molly.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like this is where he should have either gotten right down to her level, note it knows the nose in her face, or physically grabbed her by the shoulders and like, no, it's something to that effect.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a groundbreaking show for 96.
[SPEAKER_01]: As we watch it with our 2025 eyes, we want to see even more of the ugly I feel to make it effective.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we would have needed an intimacy counselor to come in, and that, of course, is 2025, and say to the actress to Hanna, we're going to do this, it's just acting, it's going to be really ugly, it's going to, you might be frightened, that's okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can be frightened, he's never going to hurt you, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: He's just going to get really close.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's, I was in a fight sequence where incredible fighter for kind of his name is very famous French fighter, who's the most famous French club vendor club vendor and he said to me, my foot is going to get a half an inch from your nose, you're going to have to play being hit, but I promise you I will never hit you in the nose.
[SPEAKER_04]: My foot will never hit your nose and we did
[SPEAKER_04]: what project was that it was a movie I did forgot in the name of that too oh wow but here I think we could have said again 2025 was supposed to do 1996 we could have said to Hanna this is going to get really ugly don't worry it's going to be fine and and they after each take are y'all right Hanna everything fine it you want to scare because she is a certain age
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we could have done it because I really do want him to get really close.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the scenes at follow makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Daya, they make sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're more impactful.
[SPEAKER_02]: I agree with both of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it would have been a better climactic, emotionally climactic moment if he had lost it.
[SPEAKER_02]: in some way, whether it was grabbing her, whether it was taking something and crashing it against the wall near her.
[SPEAKER_02]: It could have been any kind of explosive out-of-control, dangerous, and threatening, and scary.
[SPEAKER_02]: But he realizes, you know, he went too far, he does say, I'm sorry, I didn't need to, I'm so sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we cut into the cargo bay and right on the cut, we see this.
[SPEAKER_02]: A Brian swings and takes out a crate in the foreground and then empty crate.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, that is the largest wrench I've ever seen in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just a wrench he was using.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a knock that stuff down.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that stuff,
[SPEAKER_04]: looked like it had nothing in it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It looked like, and I thought, really, this is a climactic moment where he's letting out his anger, puts something in there.
[SPEAKER_04]: You must have seen how lightweight that looked.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, now it may be that Column had to do it once or twice and they did one over tax him who knows, but it just looked like he was brushing away pillows less than pillows yeah well the quick the quick solution was grab a sandbag Sandbags are everywhere throw it into that, you know, each of them have a sandbag and makes it have a little weight, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I do have a complaint about when he does walk up to the, the weapons locker, it's not a weapons locker.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was one of the standard Starfleet little things, the, the, the, the, the briefcases that we have, that they affixed to the wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he opens it and opens up just like the regular case and I thought gosh, you guys, you did not have, you did not have the budget to create an actual weapons locker.
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
[SPEAKER_01]: So that pulled me out a little bit too much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and they say unit 47, which is another reference to how the writers love to keep throwing the number 47 out in Star Trek over and over again, so that's a little easter egg there too, you know, that's cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, he taps in the code.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he takes out one of the phasers, puts it as sits down.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, first he changes the power level too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which we didn't ever had a power level on Voyage and Robby.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get ever seen that little digital LED readout power.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: changes it to all the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, all yellow red and yellow red and yellow.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's at the full 100% of everything that's power.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then sits down and puts it under his chin.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is horrible moment where you think we realize that he thinks the world would be wet better without him certainly not the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's where a commercial break would have come in in the old days, but we come back from that brief moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Bashir walks in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bashir is very calm in the scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: he's trying to, you know, kind of talk him down and reassure him, says whatever he's going through, but it's not worth it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Miles says, says it's not about me.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is to protect Molly and Kko.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he says and his friends and his friends and his friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And everyone else on the stage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, everyone else on the stage.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Robby are you okay with his tone and this one and a special tone of being calm here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I think so.
[SPEAKER_02]: In a situation, yeah, this is a talking somebody off the ledge.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, but the arc, as you've said before, should have been other than this and finally gets to it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I think that would have been so much stronger.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a better payoff.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: If we follow that huge arc of physicality, brushing people off, pushing, pushing Bashir, grabbing Molly, or crumbling up her artwork, something like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But also what Rob, I think, is indicating is that the arc for Bashir is here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, excuse me.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Bashir.
[SPEAKER_04]: Gradually comes to this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: As opposed to starting with this in the very first scene with Copyright.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think it would have been better.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I thought this scene between Bashir and O'Brien is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a beautiful scene.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just in the context, yeah, the whole episode, it felt like we'd already seen this a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it would have been nice to say this, but combed it a beautiful job of a very emotional, very vulnerable sequence here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he's crying.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or listen, you know, I'm going, wow, I've never, I hadn't remembered that, and I've never seen
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, HR appears here, Miles does explain that he was the only friend that he had till he finally starts to share with this year that there was this guy, HR there.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was the only friend I had.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as HR is listening in this sort of vision that Miles is having of seeing each
[SPEAKER_02]: but they didn't put makeup on his arms very well here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so his arms as his arms were up like this, we're just so red and pink and Caucasian looking, not, not green like his great makeup face, and that took me out of it a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robin, I would help you out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna say that he had alien rosacea.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had a little skin problem with your arms forearms, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was so pink and red and just not green.
[SPEAKER_01]: His face is green.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: someone didn't watch the monitor when they were just decided at the last moment all true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so he pulled that blocking on his own of the lot of dirt for the take and not maybe also and everyone's like wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's possible too.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because Bashir says in the scene you were alone 20 years with no one to talk to and Brian says no
[SPEAKER_02]: there was each R and Bashar asks about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go into a flashback.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's doing a lovely sand painting and then he races it.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's kind of annoyed.
[SPEAKER_02]: He messes up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, sorry, each R is doing a sand art.
[SPEAKER_02]: Miles messes it up.
[SPEAKER_02]: Says he's starving that they've never gone this long without food.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's lights out time.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just starving.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's on edge.
[SPEAKER_02]: And miles sort of wakes up half a week.
[SPEAKER_02]: He looks over and sees each other sneaking some food out of a hiding place.
[SPEAKER_02]: He jumps him.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have a big fight sequence.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very rough fighting.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's very desperate.
[SPEAKER_02]: And miles does kind of get the better of him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Twist his neck.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we hear a snapping sound.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, he goes to get the food and realizes there's two of every, everything in this satchel, that he was saving food for both of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he tries to bring him back, go over to talk to him, but each are his gone, he's dead.
[SPEAKER_01]: which by the way that cracking sound was not in the UK version.
[SPEAKER_01]: They took that out of the UK version and you were right Robbie it was actually O'Brien's design in the sand that he knocks out because then you corrected yourself said, no, it was each ours because
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, was it Brian's?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because each other goes, why did you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Brian goes, it wasn't helping.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning he was dropped down the drawing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And each other says, you need a concentrate more.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I remember him messing up the art.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he messed up each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, he messed up his own art.
[SPEAKER_02]: This flashback was great.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fighting, the kind of prison-fighted feel of it all.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was very well-quired, rafed, I thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then when we come back to,
[SPEAKER_02]: The real, you know, the station side of this, just a beautiful vulnerable performance by column.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Miles says in this scene, he thinks he had a chance to show his humanity, his true character and he failed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Bashir reassures him and says, the Argrothi wanted to strip you of your humanity, but don't let that moment define who you really are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, they push past this simulator.
[SPEAKER_02]: They push this simulation, pass that 15-year mark until he broke until he broke him.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, broke him, move his humanity.
[SPEAKER_02]: And each R is listening to this or the each R vision is listening as he explains all this to Bashir, talks to Bashir.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he sees, he chart sees that Miles finally understands he doesn't need him anymore and he sort of walks away and we see that POV as he just kind of disappears into thin air.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: He chart walks away.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you finally faced it the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also want to bring up with the,
[SPEAKER_01]: the pre-naked neck-breaking before they go to sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: He charges, I'm going to sleep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Brian says he's sleep at a time like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He charges.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I'll dream about food, which immediately threw me back to Voyager.
[SPEAKER_01]: The episode of U and I in the prison ship, the shoot.
[SPEAKER_01]: The shoot, yes, when we were talking about food.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were trying to like food.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, we were talking about good food that we remembered.
[SPEAKER_01]: That whole thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how we ended up having some tension, how I almost killed you, remember, in the over food over food.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, pretty much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, actually, you were taking a part that one thing I was trying to wire to get us out of there.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but shades of the shoot as well when watching this for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, very nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Each has last words or be well, Miles, as he walks away.
[SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, Loki.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think you hear the B. Well, if he had just turned around and disappeared, that would have been for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And in fact, I actually agree with the Brits.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's not that it would be offensive to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't think we needed a little clicks out of the breaking of the... Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because as he goes back to him and says, wake up, come on.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then, real, I think that would have been sufficient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would have like, as he walked away and disappeared, that fruit is all that remains, like on one piece of cargo, this is it's right there as a memory.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, that would have given some of the cargo some ballast, which would have made it happier in your earlier part of this season.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a ballast.
[SPEAKER_02]: We go on the corridor, but she here's giving in some medicine now.
[SPEAKER_02]: It seems like our friends are back to being friends again.
[SPEAKER_02]: But sure does say though that this is a treatment, not a cure, and tells miles to be patient.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's going to take some time.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he does say, you can always talk to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Brian says, well, I'm going to start seeing Council Little Joe.
[SPEAKER_02]: Tell Nori again, and Bashar says, yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Unless you want to just talk to me, which I thought was very sweet.
[SPEAKER_02]: A brand thanks him, Bashar says, what are friends for?
[SPEAKER_02]: So very sweet, kind of reconciliation of our good friends.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we go into the Brian's quarters for the very last moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: And door opens, daddy is home.
[SPEAKER_02]: Molly says daddy's home, hugs his legs and he's glad to be home.
[SPEAKER_02]: There we have it.
[SPEAKER_02]: My lesson is you can't get over trauma alone.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't do it by yourself.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a good armament, very close to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's okay to be broken, but friendship and understanding help in the process to make you whole again.
[SPEAKER_01]: mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mine's more of a caveat.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just that everyone at some point in their life will deal with some type of post-traumatic stress, varying degrees, and that just for everyone to be aware of their friends and family and to be, I have a constant vigil to always listen when somebody is struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: and not to brush it off and to think, oh yeah, they'll be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, there needs to be some outreach.
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, so basically what do you guys said?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we need to make sure that we are there for our friends and family.
[SPEAKER_01]: Patreon poll winner for the theme lesson moral of this episode is submitted by Alex Ray.
[SPEAKER_01]: There should be no shame in needing mental health support.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've gotten to that point in 2025 where there's definitely less stigma attached to, yeah, shame, exactly attached to.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's better for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's still out there that people do experience.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Aim or embarrassment when when it's gotten better, but there's still more work to do on that to make it to normalize people asking for
[SPEAKER_02]: without judgment to be there for people that need some support and some help.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, powerful episode, although it's imperfect, the story in the lesson behind it or really powerful, and the performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the performance, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the performance, column or shirt work was great.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thanks everyone for tuning in to our recap and discussion of this very important episode hard time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to Armman again for joining us and hope co-hosting with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And join us next time when we will be recapping and discussing the episode shattered mirror with Terry with Ter Fair.
[SPEAKER_01]: Until then, we'll see you guys next time.
[SPEAKER_01]: But of course, if you are a Patreon patron,