[SPEAKER_06]: The emergency structure system is now and everything.
[SPEAKER_08]: Welcome to the lower-hounds where your guides to Xenomorphically induced terror on your host David, and this is our season wrap-up for season one of Alien Earth on FX.
[SPEAKER_08]: We ran Squatron style this season so that we could divide up our coverage.
[SPEAKER_08]: We had foundation going and piecemaker, and before we get into it, I really just want to give a quick shout out to all the members of the squadron.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was an excellent season of podcasting.
[SPEAKER_08]: I had a lot of fun, I hope you guys all did as well.
[SPEAKER_08]: So thank you, thank you to Luke and Alicia, representing Walshiff Dust.
[SPEAKER_08]: Woohoo!
[SPEAKER_08]: Mark, woohoo!
[SPEAKER_08]: Mark from Nevermind the Music and Ian from the Captains pod.
[SPEAKER_08]: loremasters.
[SPEAKER_08]: And budding podcasters, Brian 863, do 71, representing the fan community.
[SPEAKER_08]: They did a great job.
[SPEAKER_08]: I had a lot of fun with them.
[SPEAKER_08]: Steve and Anthony from Properly Howard movie review and our
[SPEAKER_08]: And then we had Ron and JD from Dungeons in Doorags.
[SPEAKER_08]: That was a lot of fun talking with those guys.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I hope to be talking to them as a duo in the future.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then, capping it all off was Aisha from every single sci-fi film, ever podcast.
[SPEAKER_08]: And the real monsters are the friends that we made along the way.
[SPEAKER_08]: John, foundation is over.
[SPEAKER_08]: What do you got going up next?
[SPEAKER_09]: uh... first of all reviving the silver leon which has been slacking for for for not having dormant for the dormant yet uh... marlin and i are going to be doing our our podcast first one back is going to be a banger it's want to say that turn turmbar is is our first subject cool is it is the darkest hell at all of talking mm and then and then we're considering doing at least so we got to talk about this but we're considering doing some of these fall shows yeah i mean i think
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, you know, I told you that for one, one shot would be a good idea.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think for the other, we could do it like we did with, you know, Penguiner, you know, where we do a couple episodes at a time.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, this is the welcome to Dairy.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: In show, and then the other one is the telemaska show, which is in the interview with the Vampire Universe.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_09]: Very cool.
[SPEAKER_08]: Cool, cool, cool, cool.
[SPEAKER_08]: Alicia, how is peacemaker this season?
[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if you're not watching piecemaker get on it, it has, I'm trying to think, when did he write this a couple of years ago, but good lord is it's topical element.
[SPEAKER_08]: We've had a couple of shows like that, like, and or the season, and I certainly won battle after another is very, very prescient.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's wild, so.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think, I mean, I know you're gonna, I think you're gonna be talking, perhaps about one battle after another?
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's multiple conversations going on, so I gotta see what actually shakes out, but yeah, we're gonna definitely be talking about it.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's still with me, I saw it like two days ago, and I'm still being affected by it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So my, my thing about one battle after another is that I think that it is,
[SPEAKER_02]: It uses fascism, the conversation about fascism as a backdrop rather than rather exploring it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Where as a piece maker is really drilling down hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I don't want to say too much.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's the last two episodes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have now have seven out of eight episodes out.
[SPEAKER_02]: And episodes six and seven have been.
[SPEAKER_02]: yeah really wild they're getting above nine scores on IMDB people are going crazy for them they they're a lot of fun but they're also like very emotional very dark but still with hope within so it's been a really great season
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and the season finale, I mean, by the way, John Cena deserves an Emmy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Actually, just so does Jennifer Holland.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the final episode next week is going to be an hour long.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have been mostly just over half an hour this season, and apparently it's going to be as important as anything else, quoting James Gunn, for the next Superman movie, Man of Tomorrow.
[SPEAKER_08]: Wow, I didn't expect that from PSP.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's expected to drop that kind of spin-on piecemaker at something tense.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right, well, we're here for aliens, so let's check it here.
[SPEAKER_08]: Spoiler warning for all things alien ever.
[SPEAKER_08]: A quick reminder, we do have a season pass running 10 bucks flat fee, no ads in a bunch of bonus content.
[SPEAKER_08]: Felicia you and I just recorded a topic or an episode on the topic of Frankenstein and how it shows up in the show because you've got a big Frankenstein project coming up.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm going to be talking with Aisha about the Peter Pan principle next week.
[SPEAKER_08]: Mark is going to look at all the outro music and he's got some thoughts and some things that he wants to say.
[SPEAKER_08]: Nicole is interested in the show and I've been encouraging her to check it out and she's going to catch up on the season and we're going to talk about what she comes up with from sort of a human psychology standpoint.
[SPEAKER_08]: regular subscribers.
[SPEAKER_08]: You already get all this stuff, but if you're interested in supporting the podcast and you don't want to do a regular subscription thing and you just want a one time purchase for ten bucks.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a ton of content eight episodes.
[SPEAKER_08]: We have two three hour episodes in there because we broke the seal on that.
[SPEAKER_08]: And the link is in the show notes and yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Good to go.
[SPEAKER_08]: We've got some blog posts up.
[SPEAKER_08]: If you have any feedback, A, V, P at the lorehounds.com, that is going to stick that email is going to stick around, because we're going to use that for all of our aliens and predators content.
[SPEAKER_08]: And we have bad lands coming up later this year, which is going to be a movie.
[SPEAKER_08]: We'll do it definitely.
[SPEAKER_08]: I know Alicia, you and I are probably going to do a one shot on that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then as always, we have our Discord server.
[SPEAKER_08]: And if you have anything nice to say, we would love to have your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts.
[SPEAKER_08]: It makes a difference in terms of discoverability and such.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right, with that out of the way, let's kick off the episode.
[SPEAKER_08]: We got an email sent in by one of our long-term warm-aster subscribers and dear friend of the pod, Peter O. H.
[SPEAKER_08]: Peter emailed me very early on in the season and said, I'd be interested to see how the Lorhound community ranks all the universes monsters by scaring us.
[SPEAKER_08]: As in, if you had to be murdered by one, which creature terrifies you the most, compared with some of those creatures getting ripped open by a xenomorph is almost a peaceful death.
[SPEAKER_08]: and here's the primary list and the way that I was thinking about doing this is like let's not and we can talk about it a little bit but let's not answer these and then I'll put up a real poll and on the straw poll platform that we use and then we'll we'll put it out for folks for a kind of a fun thing to do but the list is any version of a face hugger chest birster
[SPEAKER_09]: John, I realized too that you may not be fully versed in all the alien lore, so what I do not recognize some of these stuff, the stuff from outside of alien earth or the original alien.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right, so what I'll do is I'll put some pictures together for the poll, so you can see what the things I would have had the poll done earlier, but this requires some graphic design.
[SPEAKER_08]: No, you have the time right.
[SPEAKER_08]: You do you.
[SPEAKER_08]: Full drones, you know more of Deacon or Neomorph.
[SPEAKER_08]: a hammer-peed from Fromifius, death by black goo consumption, death by agification as per the directors cut of alien, Peter's really going deep.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a deep, deep cut right there.
[SPEAKER_08]: Blood ticks, T-ocellus, that's the eye-mage, and D-palumbacare, that's the, I wanted to call it in their show, the orchid, the big plant creature.
[SPEAKER_08]: and the fly's.
[SPEAKER_09]: Well, I'm sorry, Flora may present this Flora, but maybe you can't actually call it.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was skittering across the back wall at the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, you, in blinking, you'll miss it, but yeah, it's there.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's moving around in the room, so it's pretty cool.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then there's the flies, but the flies don't eat organic matter, so, you know, it's a question.
[SPEAKER_08]: They are gross.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not, and Peter concludes I'm not including anything from Alien Resurrection or the predator stories.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right, and they Peter loved the show and the podcast so far.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I will put these together with some graphical aids and then I'll post that around But you guys can be thinking about anything jump off the top of your head there even John if you don't know the whole of the lore Do you have a word method of death?
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, this is best death not worse.
[SPEAKER_09]: Do I have a preferred method of death?
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't know
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't want to say the the face hogger, but like, I mean, you forget about it, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: Like, and then you live a nice little life for like 30 minutes of then, you know?
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it's true.
[SPEAKER_06]: That's true, right?
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then you have like two minutes of terror as as your chest is being, uh, when apart.
[SPEAKER_09]: But like then it's, it's, it's, it's an almost instant death.
[SPEAKER_09]: All right, I'm going to pick the Zina Morph, good, good.
[SPEAKER_09]: In this situation, the nascent Zina Morph, not the adult Morph, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, just being dragged through, I mean, that, that last episode, I saw people complaining that that the Zina Morphs were not terrifying enough in this, I was like, no, be getting dragged through the hallway by a Zina Morph is terrifying.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't know what you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_02]: Having one standing over you breathing on you, yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right, right, at least you any initial thoughts and you're you're welcome to change your votes once the vote all goes up.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to, for similar reasons, I guess I'm going to go with my girl, I'm it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it would be over quickly, and then at least my body is being used as she's accessing my brain.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not there.
[SPEAKER_09]: Or Laura Lisa, do you know whether you are aware, but not in control of your body if the I'm just controlling you because I'm not certain of that?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure the, I mean, because we've seen the image crawl into dead bodies, so I think that I think that I think and I don't fall over when the image leaves or I think you're dead or you decide which comes in your dead.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm not convinced.
[SPEAKER_09]: I have a theory of where they're going with the image.
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_09]: Excellent.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, then I would rather merge consciousnesses with the image than cease to exist, I guess.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't know if they aren't just going to let you merge consciousness, I think you're just going to be in that seat for the rest of your existence.
[SPEAKER_08]: It does keep you eating, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: It knows how to take care of your body, so, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I would, I think I'm leaning towards Florida that presents as a fauna.
[SPEAKER_08]: or find a presenter.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, what it was really painful.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, if it's, if it's quick and a surprise, like I don't know that it's there, I'm just walking down the hall to do, to do, to do, you know, scrubbing some mold or whatever, and then home, and it, you know, jumps me, then that's it.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm done.
[SPEAKER_09]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think I would say that the worst that would be the blood ticks in my opinion.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, definitely people and scary.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: I hate bugs like that, you know.
[SPEAKER_09]: I hate ticks.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: John, what are some of your general thoughts on the season overall?
[SPEAKER_08]: We're going to get into more topical areas once we get on the other side of the break, but I'm curious, you speed ran the season.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thank you for catching up like that.
[SPEAKER_08]: You and I are both fans of Noahali.
[SPEAKER_08]: We had a lot of fun covering a season of Fargo.
[SPEAKER_08]: uh, such as it was, well, we didn't cover it.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was, um, didn't we do, we did, we did like a midpoint at a, at right, so yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: So what do your, what are your general broad thoughts?
[SPEAKER_09]: I mean, I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_09]: I, I, it could be that I saw some complaining, big complaining.
[SPEAKER_09]: I didn't know what was happening, but I saw some like, big complaining about the second half of the season slowing down or not, not really knowing what was going.
[SPEAKER_09]: And maybe that's what made me have lower expectations
[SPEAKER_09]: But I thought it was great to the end.
[SPEAKER_09]: I really did.
[SPEAKER_09]: Of course, it sets up a second season.
[SPEAKER_09]: And I think if this is the only season, it's a disappointing season.
[SPEAKER_09]: But if this is just the start to the story, I think it's a fantastic start to it.
[SPEAKER_09]: I surprised and delighted me how much it used the Zeno Morph as sort of a color on the palette rather than the focus.
[SPEAKER_09]: Because that was always my worry with the show like this is like, all right, well, how many different angles
[SPEAKER_09]: But it does look at the xenomorph from an angle, but it's looking at a different aspect of the world that I at least I haven't only seen the first movie had never seen before, is this, you know, obviously we've seen the corporal fascism or the oligarchy, the tech oligarchy or an alien, but we haven't seen an exploration of what is human, and I think that is the most interesting part of this show.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Alicia.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is definitely going to be in my top five.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm pretty sure it's going to be in my top five of the year.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a tough year.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this for me was an exceptional show.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, I am also know a Holly fan for me, particularly from Legion.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this did everything that I hoped for from Noah Hawley in terms of the interest.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a human element, and I apply the human element to the hybrids and the monsters that the aliens as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a...
[SPEAKER_02]: Intense visual component, which is something that no-aholly really excels at, and it just raises a lot of questions about, so how it just gives me a lot to chew on in my brain, and I love that, and it entertains me while it's going and gets me into, well, we can see how active the chat was on the discord about this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is obviously a lot of food for thought for a lot of people.
[SPEAKER_08]: Sparking blog posts and, yeah, discord conversations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so as far as like the the biggest complaint I keep seeing is people like oh people are acting so stupid in this show I'm like, do you look at real life like I don't understand this complaints and I don't and and when we see these these corporations in the show Like no, I do not think that they are hiring the best in the brightest especially for 65 year trips and whatever
[SPEAKER_02]: does end in a way that, kind of demands a season two, I think that FX would be extraordinarily stupid not to give it to us.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand why what the hold-up is at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I am high on this show overall.
[SPEAKER_02]: And by the way, you brought up the Frankenstein episode we did.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there was one more thing that I thought of after we recorded that I forgot to bring up that's an interesting parallel, which is,
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is one of the things I've been thinking about throughout the season and I think a lot of people have is boy k saying that he just wants to have an intelligent conversation with someone and of course We've talked about and I heard you and I should talk about you know the fact that what is intelligent mean because he has intelligent people around him, but he just has his own hubris about what intelligence means But it
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they just tie back to Frankenstein and his monster also because unlike the Universal movies that people think of, where, you know, what is it?
[SPEAKER_02]: Dead, good, living.
[SPEAKER_02]: In the Universal movies, Frankenstein is not an articulate creature in the books.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: he studies it goes on the books timeline is much longer so he actually does learn how to speak and becomes quite articulate and we have several characters who have that same thing like i'm just looking for someone i can talk to ties back into the whole mad scientist thing that we were talking about so it's about if i felt any i out of sympathy for boy k you know there's a loneliness and being
[SPEAKER_02]: Intelligent.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just don't think he's intelligent as he thinks he is.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I just find all of that very interesting.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's just too bad.
[SPEAKER_09]: The image was abby normal.
[SPEAKER_08]: Millbrooks.
[SPEAKER_08]: You haven't watched the Millbrooks one recently, Alicia.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, not recently.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to watch it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have this weekend.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, the abby normal will.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a jump from that one to go to you.
[SPEAKER_08]: I thought that there are some fair critiques of the season and, you know, be their little stretching the plot and having to headcanon something here or there, you know, that's fair.
[SPEAKER_08]: Did the season finale stick to landing?
[SPEAKER_08]: We can debate that a little bit.
[SPEAKER_08]: Something that I am appreciating about Nohali and that really comes home to me in this season is that he's a very
[SPEAKER_08]: He's a, he's a showrunner who and writer, who is very heavy on vibes, and he can't tell tightly plotted stories, but it almost felt like this was, he was going to, he was leaning
[SPEAKER_08]: trying to create something that was inducing feelings in us rather than a super tightly constructed Rubik's Cube of a season.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I also know that sometimes a show takes a season or two to find itself and to tighten up.
[SPEAKER_08]: This was a expensive show to make
[SPEAKER_08]: It is a high-stakes property because it is in the alien universe and if you go on the reddit or on the internet's in general.
[SPEAKER_08]: There are still people who debate the ins and outs of 1979 and 1986, and all the other movies, it's an intense place of conversation and topic and ongoingly, and so to be able to take on a property like this and to get any measure of success out of it, that is a high-stakes high-reward kind of situation.
[SPEAKER_08]: I do definitely applaud him for that.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think a lot of people aren't maybe used to know a Holly's show directions.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, far rose a big show, but it's not a massive show.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think maybe a lot of people who are deep in the alien world may if not, this is a theory, you know, their supposition.
[SPEAKER_08]: Maybe they don't know, know a Holly's a director very well.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so,
[SPEAKER_08]: getting used to his techniques and what he does may be a different flavor of I'm mixing all kinds of metaphors here, but you know, a different flavor palette, right, or he was painting with different sort of colors.
[SPEAKER_09]: So, you know, as you're talking, I would almost compare Holly to Mike Flanagan in this like, let's use the plot sparingly and you know, have an exploration of a theme.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right, right, from once.
[SPEAKER_09]: However, I actually think I prefer Holly's method better because Mike Flanagan will use monologues extensively.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: And I, it at times at times is really good in beautiful and poetic and at times it gets a little bit tell about show and here I don't think Holly ever really does the tell not show he's very good at showing not telling.
[SPEAKER_09]: I mean he'll have he'll do sort of a Martin three step reveal.
[SPEAKER_09]: where he'll have a character outright say something at the end for example the last line I think it was the last line of the show with with Wendy with Marcy whoever she is at this point but but he's leading you there before that right and and you can figure things out as you go I think it's a good observation the one that I agree with of course it's good because I agree with it that
[SPEAKER_08]: he's the way that he tells story and the way that he works with the plot arc, the story arc, and then the character development, I think that's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_08]: I remember what was the flan again one about the, I don't want to spoil anything, but it was on the like a like a
[SPEAKER_08]: And there's a monologue in there where one of the main characters is talking I'm trying to avoid spoilers that talking about their opinions about death or something and there's these long five minute stretches of dialogue very interesting very well written but yeah like a lot of explanatory stuff as opposed to holly who boils it down and he gives you a little bit of character monologue but it's not even monologue it's just like a liner to a dialogue and you're like whoa it kind of punches you in the face
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I just want to defend that quickly.
[SPEAKER_09]: That is, I think, my favorite Mike Flatting and show, but that particular scene you're talking about is my least favorite bike rider.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, it's very self-indulgent.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I felt very, I was really disappointed by the ending.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's talk about a show that I, in my opinion, didn't stick the landing.
[SPEAKER_08]: It just felt like they ran out of budget.
[SPEAKER_08]: So they just got a shortcut to do with all of that.
[SPEAKER_09]: But, all right, let's move on.
[SPEAKER_09]: We're not talking about McFlatting in here.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, regardless of all that, I am really interested to hear both of your takes.
[SPEAKER_08]: So we're going to get into a minute in a minute.
[SPEAKER_08]: I wanted to run just a quick analytics to see where we are on the show.
[SPEAKER_08]: Normally, we apply these a lot to movies, but we can do some TV stuff for sure on here.
[SPEAKER_08]: Fukillus scale for violence.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, this is top of the range.
[SPEAKER_08]: I would not exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can think of worse, but this is definitely, yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'd say the boys' worst, but this is still bad.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this is very high, except for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_08]: The Sanderson slider and the Shipy test, the Sanderson slider for adaptation and the Shipy test for source versus screen on screen changes.
[SPEAKER_08]: There isn't source material here.
[SPEAKER_09]: Well, I would still consider the original.
[SPEAKER_09]: I see here's the thing, this is kind of blending with the low pez test that you've said, agree the way that it fits with it.
[SPEAKER_09]: I would say, you know, having only seen the first alien movie.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: This feels like an inspiration more than an adaptation kind of thing right it's exploring much different things using the same color palette
[SPEAKER_02]: It's interesting because people were complaining, which I don't get, that it was that the opening scene was too much like alien.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know what people just looking for things to complain about.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then if it wasn't too much like alien, they would have complained that it wasn't alien enough.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And people are doing that too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, whatever.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think if you're getting it from both sides, you know you're in the middle.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[SPEAKER_08]: To some degree.
[SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, I think totally it passes the Lopez test for compatibility with Storyverse.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think he nestled it in quite nicely, just like some of how we complain about.
[SPEAKER_08]: Star Wars diversity and storytelling in terms of the eras and where they could be locating timeframes for interesting stories and finding gaps where stuff isn't written or you know, on a stream of the acolyte.
[SPEAKER_08]: We can place the where where Noah Holly placed the show in the alien verse timeline.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think is a really interesting time frame
[SPEAKER_08]: creates that connective tissue for hardcore fans because now we can go back and answer questions and see how things line up, can he line up the tracks a little bit?
[SPEAKER_08]: And that gives a lot of energy for fans who are really interested in the world building and to answer some of those questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I mean basically it's mostly about the intention of morality and I don't know like who do we think is who would be on the Juliet end of the scale here perhaps Arthur?
[SPEAKER_08]: I think so, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you only won it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would have defended Dame Sylvia at the start of the season by the end.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, well, she's she's her intentions are not immoral, but she is like so many people where she will.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, she will do the wrong thing because it's.
[SPEAKER_02]: the easiest or because it gets her what else she wants or because it doesn't disrupt her existence as an employee of this.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I still have, by the way, no Holly, the finale did nothing to quail my, um, my tinfoil hat theories, including the one that James, Dame Sylvia is a synth.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm still saying all of that's on the table, which could explain some of her behavior, but for the most part, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Boy K obviously worse than Sims Nard from this is from silo anyone who doesn't Yeah Sims in Bernard or two characters in silo Yeah, I can think I think boy K perhaps the worst in terms of moral intentions But he's got a lot of company on that end of the scale right
[SPEAKER_08]: We have these three other tests that's that to each scale for AI capability, the script notes, billing analysis framework, and the priestly paradox for a perfect movie or show.
[SPEAKER_08]: These are still sort of underdevelopment, and I don't want to dig into them too deeply because I want to get into our main conversation, but anybody have any thoughts or opinions or show you just move along.
[SPEAKER_08]: That sounds like we do we do we think that the hybrids are AI?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they count as AI?
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a really interesting question.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think it throws a wrinkle into the AI scale question, whether you're bleep, bleep, you know, lights and blinking lights, or do you have, you know, sky net capabilities?
[SPEAKER_02]: So I mean, certainly they've all passed the touring test, you know, even for Irish.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Adam.
[SPEAKER_02]: So.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's take a break.
[SPEAKER_08]: And then when we come back, we'll get into some more topics.
[SPEAKER_08]: We'll talk about the warm opens and the outro music.
[SPEAKER_08]: We'll talk about that.
[SPEAKER_08]: story arc, we can talk about Noah Hawley a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_08]: I've got a really interesting voicemail that we can use as a framing device.
[SPEAKER_08]: We can talk about the characters and stuff.
[SPEAKER_08]: I have a question for you, Alicia.
[SPEAKER_08]: Maybe Dame Sylvia is the real doctor, Frankenstein here.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, we'll get into it when we come back from this rock.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's that why is that why that joked in land with you, Alicia?
[SPEAKER_09]: Because that's from the Mel Brooks movie.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I, I, yeah, but it's Frankenstein.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know it's, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it.
[SPEAKER_09]: He wilder doesn't want to be associated with his grandfather, my friend, it's time.
[SPEAKER_09]: And so he's like, it's Frankenstein, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right, all right
[SPEAKER_09]: So you want John?
[SPEAKER_09]: So I love it didn't just sound drooling into my head.
[SPEAKER_09]: And it was in the morning.
[SPEAKER_09]: And Alicia, I can't you off there, sorry about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I was just gonna say I gave Evan and Castello Meet Frankenstein 2.5 stars.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like, what?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't like parodies as much as you guys.
[SPEAKER_09]: I mean, look, I'm gonna be honest with you.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't think I'd like that as much if I grandpa didn't show it to me when I was a kid, but he didn't know it's always gonna be like.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I enjoyed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I gave it 2.5 stars in a heart.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, you can rate by stars on how good you think something is and then a heart is whether or not for me the heart means whether or not like do I want to rewatch this and I'm like yeah, I would totally rewatch this I don't think it's good, but I would totally rewatch it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, and this gets into the setup for the priestly paradox of a perfect movie, you know, a movie can be perfect and you can not love it or you can love a movie and yeah, I mean there's any combination there of
[SPEAKER_08]: which is just because it's flawed or perfect, does it mean you can't love it?
[SPEAKER_08]: For what it is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and Luke Hustello, I have not seen that much of him, I know that, you know, my dad's a fan of like, the three stuages and stuff, and obviously Luke Hustello is sort of the father, grandfather of that, he's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's very good at what he does.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just not my type of humor.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's open up the conversation.
[SPEAKER_08]: We've got a really great voicemail from one of our active discord users, but Nama, Nama, Nama, they wrote out.
[SPEAKER_08]: Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama, Nama
[SPEAKER_08]: That's where my head can and it's going in this.
[SPEAKER_08]: They sent in a written version of this, which is at the end of our outline, if you guys want to read it.
[SPEAKER_08]: But they also sent in a voicemail.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think the voicemail does a really nice job of framing context, sort of a larger context for our conversation.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's a little bit long of a voicemail, but I think it's interesting.
[SPEAKER_08]: So hang with it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hello again, lorehounds.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great season coverage.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love the show, and the season ending worked for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: The story isn't about Utah neighbors' prodigy, so it's fine to me that they don't resolve that plotline yet.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's about who will you become, making a name for yourself, and what will you sacrifice to make that name?
[SPEAKER_00]: Boy Kay has made tremendous moral sacrifices
[SPEAKER_00]: Arthur and Silvia have compromised their morals for a scientific advancement.
[SPEAKER_00]: Silvia to a higher degree.
[SPEAKER_00]: The children begin the season by having their names stripped from them, and assigning them new ones, attempting to direct them into who boy K wants them to become.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, when the Babylonians gave their Israelite captives, new Babylonian names to assimilate them, Daniel becomes about the Shazar.
[SPEAKER_00]: In Neverland, this works for a time, but one by one, the lost boys begin asserting their individuality.
[SPEAKER_00]: This transformation is spotlighted as they assign new names for themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Doodles was first to rebrand himself, as Isaac, the scientist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Fulfilling his statements from Amphas Old One, when he declared that intent.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what she wants to be called, she says.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this her struggling to understand the concept that she or self actually needs to become someone else?
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is how the recent trauma is expressing that idea in her mind?
[SPEAKER_00]: More Otold slightly.
[SPEAKER_00]: How can I trust you if you don't tell me your name?
[SPEAKER_00]: A name gives you power.
[SPEAKER_00]: It identifies you, represents you, it defend you.
[SPEAKER_00]: that in moral abuse as a Rusha's name, threatening his family, so making a name for yourself is also dangerous.
[SPEAKER_00]: It exposes you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wendy's case is complicated by her attachment to her brother.
[SPEAKER_00]: She struggles to identify with her brother as Marcy and with Neverland as Wendy.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the end of the season, she has not yet decided who she will become, and thus has not chosen her new name.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't want to become a copy of Boy K, who killed his father and took his place.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's instead imprisoning the whole lot who decided to tell her who to be while she decides what to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, she'd become him anyway, because that is where she said it as she declares now we rule and appropriate seasoning that makes us ponder her trajectory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Although I hope Season 2 finds her reevaluating her course and the name she is making for herself.
[SPEAKER_00]: By the end of the season, Curly is beginning to shed her never-land name.
[SPEAKER_00]: While she also come to view her human name, Jane, as obsolete, has Wendy Marcy, came to view her human name.
[SPEAKER_00]: They seem to be realizing that the people they used to be are dead and they must become something new.
[SPEAKER_00]: Even the xenomorph is subverting expectations of who we think it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Using language, communication, and cooperation will arise above our preconceptions of its predatory nature, can it make a new name for itself?
[SPEAKER_00]: As I contemplate this season, I reflect on Kersh's words in episode 1.
[SPEAKER_00]: You are born, you live, you die, all we can do is watch and take names.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I'll be doing in future seasons.
[SPEAKER_00]: Watching and taking names.
[SPEAKER_00]: Discord, name, banana, banana.
[SPEAKER_00]: B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b
[SPEAKER_08]: But this is lovely, this is like a mini blog post, and I really appreciate you taking the time to record it.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's very well put together.
[SPEAKER_08]: But as you guys can see, it's a really great framing.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, we can see this all kinds of points that banana brings up throughout the overall conversation.
[SPEAKER_08]: But I'm curious, Alicia, do you have any initial thoughts that spark off the voicemail?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, of course, as soon as we talk about the power of names and how it exposes you, I think of stories like, well, of course, we've covered earth sea, or you guys have covered earth sea, and I've been a fan since the child as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then, stories like Rumpel still skin, obviously, that it's playing off of, and just this, this, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there is a history of the power of names of someone, or even cats, the musical.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have not seen the movie, I'm going to ignore it, but it is also about the cats having their secret name that humans don't know.
[SPEAKER_09]: And speaking of Earthsea, Marilyn brings it up like every other time it records.
[SPEAKER_09]: So it's time we do the last episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes!
[SPEAKER_02]: Not the last, come on, you have more.
[SPEAKER_09]: You're doing one more.
[SPEAKER_02]: No!
[SPEAKER_09]: On the other one, on the last book.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: On all the short stories together?
[SPEAKER_09]: No, I don't think we're going to do the rest of the sorts of stories that we just did it.
[SPEAKER_09]: Wow, let's talk.
[SPEAKER_09]: We'll talk.
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, the original plan for all the short stories was to check in with various lorhounds co-hosts and have them read a short, you know, pick a short story to read.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, have like a rotating conversation with you.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's a grand idea and it's a lot of production work.
[SPEAKER_02]: I volunteer as tribute.
[SPEAKER_09]: But I'll tell you what, let's do the last book first and then.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to worry about that.
[SPEAKER_09]: Once he actually gets something moving again, then I'll think about what we're doing.
[SPEAKER_09]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, it would be a great ongoing little fun project sort of as interstitial content.
[SPEAKER_08]: So that's for sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: For sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: John, did you have any thoughts that spark off this?
[SPEAKER_09]: I think this is, this is great.
[SPEAKER_09]: The power of a name is super important.
[SPEAKER_09]: And I too am worried about the direction of Wendy, Marcy, the thing, whatever she is now.
[SPEAKER_09]: But at the same time, like now we rule, I don't think that this character intends at least to be as cruel as boy K. But I think it's very possible that she will be anyway.
[SPEAKER_08]: I also am very scared.
[SPEAKER_01]: Frankenstein's monster.
[SPEAKER_08]: It opens up that question too of benevolent rule
[SPEAKER_08]: And she has human consciousness, but a mechanical body, and would she be susceptible in the same ways?
[SPEAKER_08]: As we are, are there inherent conditions being in a mortal body?
[SPEAKER_08]: Guys, this is making me really think about Tolkan too, with a serial longevity.
[SPEAKER_08]: If that's the right technical term for the elves,
[SPEAKER_08]: where if you don't have the pressure of death.
[SPEAKER_08]: How does that change your perspective and your outlook?
[SPEAKER_08]: And then ultimately affects the use of power.
[SPEAKER_08]: How you use power?
[SPEAKER_09]: It also reminds me, and I don't remember if Marilyn brought this up on an air podcast with you, but there's this thing in the disc world where after death, you know, is has severed the soul from the body.
[SPEAKER_09]: Death's talking to the person and they go, why don't I feel angry anymore?
[SPEAKER_09]: He goes, it's all on the glands.
[SPEAKER_09]: And so, like, so these robots don't have glands, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: But at the same time, they clearly were built to simulate emotion.
[SPEAKER_09]: You'll, like, they have emotions.
[SPEAKER_09]: And that's clearly different from curse, who is just, you know, kind of dead-eyed and, and, you know, just straight up, just purpose-driven.
[SPEAKER_09]: So I don't know, I don't know how this will work.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think about some current circumstances that are happening globally and where we don't cover concurrent politics directly in our podcasts, but we can reference some sort of obliquely at times.
[SPEAKER_08]: And whether it's current or even in the history, in human history,
[SPEAKER_08]: I would say that a lot of the leaders who are the most destructive, both in terms of human lives, human resources, you know, and it can be those monetary resources or other, you know, real, you know, cities and towns and things like this, that the most destructive people who have led great armies and things like that are dealing with their mortality.
[SPEAKER_08]: that they're reaching for something that is to immortalize themselves.
[SPEAKER_08]: And a lot of our stories, especially our fantasy stories, involve people, oh, I'm a great hero and a name that will be sung for generations after my death.
[SPEAKER_08]: There's a sensibility there.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that's what I think boy K is also dealing with, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: In terms of, can we defeat mortality?
[SPEAKER_08]: Can I be mortal?
[SPEAKER_08]: Immortal?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you're too late.
[SPEAKER_08]: Sorry, boy.
[SPEAKER_08]: We're all too late.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so he brought up also about Jane, this specifically, Jane's name.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I find that a really interesting case because, you know, so Jane was curly's name in the before she died, before she was transferred to a hybrid body.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: She's been struggling with who is she and she wants to be special.
[SPEAKER_02]: She wants to be special to boy K, she doesn't want Wendy to be the special one.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then Wendy tells her actually your name fits into this whole story frame work in an interesting way that we set up because Jane is actually the name of Wendy's daughter in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: And Jane is the one who, you know, once Wendy turns her back on boy K, Jane is the one who,
[SPEAKER_02]: Jane is the one Peter Pan then takes next to sort of replace Wendy in a way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So Jane then at that moment chooses to re-embrace her original name.
[SPEAKER_02]: But is that her connecting with her prior identity?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or is that her connecting with this new identity that Wendy's explanation has made possible for her?
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: You don't have to agree.
[SPEAKER_09]: You
[SPEAKER_09]: And I think that this show is a good stepping point into, like, hey, why are we not questioning this a little bit more?
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, we have people rummaging around in your thoughts at night cleaning things up.
[SPEAKER_09]: So this immortal being is collecting children on an island.
[SPEAKER_05]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's, well, Ysha and I are going to talk about this on the upcoming bonus segment about this idea of the Peter Pan principle that so much of modern Western American driven.
[SPEAKER_08]: culture is based on a Peter Pan principle on on this sort of lost boys thing for every young and never having to grow up in face responsibility.
[SPEAKER_09]: You're letting a Brit determine American culture than the state of it.
[SPEAKER_09]: Do's gotten to your head.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the Native Americans would like to tell you that the British have determined all American contrary to themselves.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, the French were involved for a bit too.
[SPEAKER_08]: And never mind the Dutch who are the single largest monetary investor in the United States economy.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: It stands.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we got a lot of stuff named Stavis on to New York City.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that a Dutch word?
[SPEAKER_08]: The whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a name.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was the name of the original, what you call the governor, the Dutch governor of New York, or it was New Amsterdam,
[SPEAKER_08]: And are like Arthur Kill and all of that kill.
[SPEAKER_08]: I believe is the word for river in Dutch or a water bottle.
[SPEAKER_02]: Water?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, it means chill.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, around Staten Island, all of the water things are the waterways.
[SPEAKER_08]: Like Arthur.
[SPEAKER_02]: Probably a person's name, yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I'm sure somebody can write in and let us know.
[SPEAKER_08]: But anyway, yes, the Dutch, there's so much land and yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: The one thing that I really thought of when Bonan can I say it, Bonanima was talking about who will you become was that very first indoor trailer where Forest Whitaker as Salgarera, you know, we hear a voice over who will you become?
[SPEAKER_08]: And it just gives me that gave me chills and it really made me fall in love with that movie even before it was out.
[SPEAKER_08]: And this idea that
[SPEAKER_08]: under pressure and under deress and existential, there's really questions of your existence.
[SPEAKER_08]: And how are you gonna get through this difficult situation?
[SPEAKER_08]: What does that do to you?
[SPEAKER_08]: What does that do to a human person?
[SPEAKER_08]: And then what does it do to consciousness that's been transplanted?
[SPEAKER_08]: So,
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, let's switch topics here a little bit.
[SPEAKER_08]: I want to talk about the warm opens in the outro music and see what your opinions are of sort of these bookends of every episode, but Amy M, one of our Patreon supporters.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thank you, Amy M, for your support.
[SPEAKER_08]: We really, really.
[SPEAKER_08]: appreciate it, wrote in to say, hey, I just wanted to sport your co-host in the last episode that was Aisha.
[SPEAKER_08]: Last episode's opinion of the music.
[SPEAKER_08]: I didn't like it either.
[SPEAKER_08]: So no, she's definitely not the only one.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thanks for all the coverage, Amy.
[SPEAKER_08]: There's been a few who have popped up on discord saying, huh?
[SPEAKER_08]: See, Aisha, you're not alone.
[SPEAKER_08]: There are dozens of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: To each their own.
[SPEAKER_08]: John, as the new person to the alien franchise, you don't really have a history necessarily of films and other things to compare with.
[SPEAKER_08]: So just on a straight television line, what did the outro music do for you?
[SPEAKER_08]: Was it fun or was it distracting?
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm trying to remember what it was.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't think it did anything for me.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, no, it was all the rock songs at the end.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah, I think that's fine.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's not my no strong feelings, I barely remember it.
[SPEAKER_09]: You don't even like I can't have much of an opinion on it with that.
[SPEAKER_09]: Wow, yeah, which is funny.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm getting back into music again, but yeah, it didn't really strike me.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I'm excited to talk to Mark.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's putting to it.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's going to look at all the songs from all eight episodes.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he said he's got some ideas that he's going to cook up for kind of analyzing.
[SPEAKER_08]: He's getting very lorhoundy about it.
[SPEAKER_08]: At least I did you like the outro music.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I love the outro music.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think going hard with the music is perfect for this show.
[SPEAKER_02]: My favorite needle drop, though, was I've brought it up on the discord.
[SPEAKER_02]: It was, um, I'm a huge, I'll j-fan, or I used to be huge, I'll j-fan, and now I'm like, well, I should be listening to their stuff again.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, they dropped a test of late in one of the episodes.
[SPEAKER_08]: That was a really great one too, with the the airship flying between the cities.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was just a very ball.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's such a good song, it's such a good song.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you get a chance to see them in concert, they are great and concert.
[SPEAKER_08]: I picked up two new artists, Alt J, which I'd never heard before, and what was the other one radio killed the TV or no, what was that, I'll have to look it up.
[SPEAKER_08]: But there was the episode 1 or 2, where Windy jumps off the cliff.
[SPEAKER_09]: and deal the radio star.
[SPEAKER_08]: Is that who they're called?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a song, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a song.
[SPEAKER_09]: You're going to be a TV on the radio.
[SPEAKER_09]: TV on the radio.
[SPEAKER_08]: That's yeah.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_09]: I had never heard of them before and I absolutely adore that song that they used.
[SPEAKER_09]: So I'm going to tell you a vinyl record because I have a vinyl record of them and I do not like it.
[SPEAKER_09]: So I want you to enjoy it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, we'll find a record player in a sister store and relive my Gen X. I told this story yesterday on my game night to my guys, because I come all the guys that I play, draw steel with our musicians and they're mixing down their record right now.
[SPEAKER_08]: and a new album.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so we were talking about albums.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I tried to show my daughter and her niece at Christmas one year.
[SPEAKER_08]: We were staying at this rental house where there was a record player.
[SPEAKER_08]: But the record player didn't have a needle and the armature was broken.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I was like girls check this out and they're like, and it didn't work and they're like, bye.
[SPEAKER_09]: No, my kids love the record player that I have.
[SPEAKER_09]: My son figured out which button starts it and he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I just don't much.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had when I was a small kid.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had a little, my parents have always had a record player.
[SPEAKER_02]: They still do.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have a great vinyl collection.
[SPEAKER_02]: But they gave me a little kid record player.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I would have like, Baron Steen, not Steen.
[SPEAKER_02]: They changed it.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I would have like these these stories or like Disney stories or stuff that um, and that was what in the ways I helped teach myself how to read, you know, I would listen to it and read along in these matching books.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it was just like a little so that my parents didn't have to worry about me breaking anything.
[SPEAKER_08]: I had a Steve Martin comedy record that I'll now listen to over and over again.
[SPEAKER_08]: So good.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, now I'm going to have to get a record because I have a really great amplifier up in our attic.
[SPEAKER_08]: I've been thinking about setting up my stereo a stereo right off there.
[SPEAKER_08]: And dear listener, even though this is an alien earth podcast, this was just a little taste of what we talk about on second breakfast.
[SPEAKER_08]: The exclusive podcast for subscribers.
[SPEAKER_08]: This is sort of the things that we do and we just the three of us when we
[SPEAKER_02]: Especially this week where we got very unhinged.
[SPEAKER_09]: We did.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think it's super comfy.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think it's actually both not sleep before every second break.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just interacts with the ADHD in a nice way.
[SPEAKER_08]: Do the things we do for content dear listener.
[SPEAKER_09]: Speaking of PTSD, can I just say I love that whole section with, uh, with curious going with your ADHD, if you're severe ADHD, you know, your medication medication.
[SPEAKER_09]: So, you know, like the, the breaking up that was fantastic.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yes, the impulse control issues.
[SPEAKER_08]: I thought it was interesting so we can sort of start sliding and I think into talking about story and character writ large so we don't have to have any defined boundaries here.
[SPEAKER_08]: But I thought it was really interesting that Kirsh that Noah Holly wrote in so explicitly a diagnosis like referencing that.
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't think I've ever heard
[SPEAKER_08]: Many other shows or movies sort of explicitly do that and say you have explicit OCD diagnosis for Mujus.
[SPEAKER_09]: See, mother's milk and the boys has an example.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, so there they there are some exceptions, but I think right generally people shy away from it.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: And also another example I'm thinking about for OCD was in, um, what was that movie we covered?
[SPEAKER_09]: A real pain.
[SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I know.
[SPEAKER_09]: So some of the pill every day for it.
[SPEAKER_09]: And great.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dying for sex is a great one for ADHD, Jenny Slate's character.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, uh, she talks about having ADHD and there's so many recognizable things about it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I
[SPEAKER_09]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: Jenny Slade, I'll always think of her going, money, please.
[SPEAKER_09]: It marks the record.
[SPEAKER_08]: So since in Andy Joe, one of our subscribers and good friend of the pod and very active discord user wrote in on the show overall in the end.
[SPEAKER_08]: He liked it and wanted more, but it wasn't great.
[SPEAKER_08]: It wasn't as great as I hoped it would be given the cool setup on the early episodes.
[SPEAKER_08]: They less, they, oh boy, I'm stumbling, they left so much unresolved.
[SPEAKER_08]: For example,
[SPEAKER_08]: I thought we'd get some insight into Kirch's background or motives.
[SPEAKER_08]: We didn't even know who created him or why Boike seemingly trusts him so much.
[SPEAKER_08]: We've got some more Boike or since it's Boike.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm really losing it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Since an Eddie Joe coverage our feedback in when we talk about some characters and he has some thoughts on
[SPEAKER_08]: You both enjoyed it, did it work as coherent television and did episode eight stick the landing?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, for me, if it doesn't, I mean, I wanted to continue.
[SPEAKER_02]: If it doesn't continue, I'm fine with where it stopped.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I do think that Holly was setting up a lot of things that he said, yeah, I mean, when he first talked to them, it was originally supposed to be from the jump, two season show.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think I've heard three seasons offloaded or something like that.
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, this was not designed to end here.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if it does end here, I am absolutely going to blame FX and not know a Holly.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I can hear, yeah, I still have all my theories about emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: I still believe them all.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that this last episode confirmed them for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you really should be you?
[SPEAKER_02]: we will get season two and I shall be proven right.
[SPEAKER_08]: The, I sort of think, and look, I think it was about three weeks from the end of Shogun to when FX gave the official announcement about a season two, but that's a very different circumstance because FX had a very,
[SPEAKER_08]: original book that it was modeling off of.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so there wasn't necessarily a plan for season two, but it felt like it kind of convinced the show runners.
[SPEAKER_09]: Once they run it all by bread and car, everything will be fine.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_08]: Do you think, John, if you had known that season two was green lit prior, would that have changed your opinions about the end of season one?
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I think it would have improved it.
[SPEAKER_09]: Like, I will say like, it's kind of like, I think it was season three of Breaking Bad where you're like, if the show ended here.
[SPEAKER_09]: It would be a really interesting, like, new hour ending of just open-ended, you know, dark, dark ending.
[SPEAKER_09]: And I think the same is true here, like you could have it here and it tells an interesting story.
[SPEAKER_09]: And it's a much better story if you can continue from here, because I don't think that we have fully... Agreed.
[SPEAKER_09]: We have fully explored all the hybrid characters.
[SPEAKER_09]: They are just awakening.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think that's a really interesting point that our expectations set are feeling if we had known this is a one and done season.
[SPEAKER_08]: And with windy saying, you know, now we rule, you know, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: And you get to that killer Pearl Jam song.
[SPEAKER_08]: Was it Pearl Jam on the last one?
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm trying to remember now animal.
[SPEAKER_09]: It was.
[SPEAKER_09]: I mean, let me let me run this by you.
[SPEAKER_09]: They don't do a season two, but then they go, all right, we're going to start making alien movies further in the timeline now, past, past Sigourney Weaver.
[SPEAKER_09]: But then in one of those movies, Wendy Marcy shows up.
[SPEAKER_09]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, it's a portal, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, she could go anywhere in the timeline now.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, assuming she survives, yeah, you can play with it, uh, uh, add-in for an item.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I would love that.
[SPEAKER_02]: My first choice would be continue because I'm not only injured.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, in many ways, there are other characters in this show.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm interested in even more than Wendy Marcy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I definitely, I want to seize, I'm just, at the moment, I am just left baffled by FX, not choosing to, it would have been if they had announced
[SPEAKER_08]: It was, you know, I lost internet points because that was my prediction was that FX was holding their green light announcement toward to a strategic moment as we are coming near the end of the season, they would have popped up, you know, at seven or eight or something like that.
[SPEAKER_08]: Hey, we've green lit.
[SPEAKER_08]: season two and that would have generated some more heat and brought in even more audiences because that would have been a head big headline you know hey season two has been announced and we're not even done with season one yet bang the shows the success and that heat and momentum would have carried into episode eight and then we would have felt like oh sweet we're going to get a season two this is a badass and a great cliffhanger right
[SPEAKER_08]: So, to me, I think it's a strategic blunder that they didn't already announce it.
[SPEAKER_09]: No, no, David, you're not thinking about the shareholder here.
[SPEAKER_09]: You got to make sure that all the shareholder before you announce a season two, you know, make sure that this is old news and all of the business.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the whole Kimmelos, I expect to get some.
[SPEAKER_02]: But no, but I think that, uh, well, I think, I mean, part of me wondered at first if because we know, for example, because of the whole Bruhaha around the Kimmel situation, they delayed, this is all Disney.
[SPEAKER_02]: They delayed, uh, the Mandalorian trailer a few days.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then still, when it dropped a few days later, people were still like, ah,
[SPEAKER_02]: We're still, you're not gonna distract us from that other thing and then that was kind of the moment where they're like, no, we're done We've resolved the other thing and so I thought maybe this was being delayed for the same reason, but now at this point I don't understand what's going on.
[SPEAKER_09]: Well, they also, I don't I don't know how coordinated the Disney timing is because they also raised prices like a during the Kimmel thing Yeah, you know Oh guys guys bad bad form here
[SPEAKER_02]: That was really dumb.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know that they did that.
[SPEAKER_02]: It didn't happen.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh yeah, during, maybe it was like the day after they put him back on an air, but like, yeah, they lost like a ton of subscribers.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think, yeah, there was news about the subscriber house, like over a million or something.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and stock was done.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, stock was down and it was, it was like a bad moment for them.
[SPEAKER_09]: And then they're like, let's raise prices.
[SPEAKER_09]: This is the moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: But this has also, so they have, there's been reporting recently that numbers have gone down throughout this show, but I think that this does play a not small role in it, this whole, that people were, because we know, for example, that there are people who are still watching the show, but they weren't watching it on Disney+.
[SPEAKER_02]: Great.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[SPEAKER_09]: They were watching it on Hulu, just to be clear everyone.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
[SPEAKER_06]: Thank people.
[SPEAKER_08]: So would you, which both of your opinions on the question of did the season suffer from compression?
[SPEAKER_08]: We see this a lot in a lot of shows where it feels like there's an artificial cap on episodes or the story, the showrunner and writers didn't really get all the room that they needed to to tell the story that they started out to or intended the story, tell the story of Holly was in an interview saying he's used to 10 and this is an eight episode season.
[SPEAKER_08]: So did the show suffer
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it felt compressed, I don't think it didn't feel rushed, it didn't feel slow either, but it did feel like a perfectly paced first season of what was intended to be at least a two season arc.
[SPEAKER_02]: It feels like they spent a lot of time implanting us into this part of the timeline and these characters and setting up all the interesting things.
[SPEAKER_02]: there is meant to be a season two to realize all that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, John, compression.
[SPEAKER_09]: No, I thought it ended at the right time.
[SPEAKER_09]: I did not think it needed more episodes.
[SPEAKER_09]: Actually, I didn't say how I watched the show, but you know that I've been most of it.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but I waited until last night to watch the finale, and I'm going to pretend that I did that on purpose.
[SPEAKER_09]: But I actually think it was nice because I got to like mull over it for a few days and then have fresh takes on the finale and I I just I felt like I was like all right good where we're wrapping this up.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's it's it's the time to do it.
[SPEAKER_08]: What is your what is your take on episode eight I see I thought it was great.
[SPEAKER_09]: I thought um which was the episode where
[SPEAKER_09]: That was my favorite episode, when they had the meeting, where him in the world, you know, you've got, I think it was episode six because, you mean that, yeah, the crawling on the table episode.
[SPEAKER_02]: The fuck.
[SPEAKER_09]: Hey, look at my mouth.
[SPEAKER_09]: When he goes, oh, where, what do you think you're doing?
[SPEAKER_09]: The beach is that way, you know, it's that part.
[SPEAKER_09]: That was my favorite.
[SPEAKER_06]: That was episode.
[SPEAKER_09]: six, I believe the following, I think we're seven, seven, in some emergency.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think it's like two episodes, but I mean, I loved that.
[SPEAKER_09]: Kirstie, I think it's my favorite character because I love how I can't read his intentions, the whole, and maybe I'm jumping ahead to your discussion of characters, but we're, we're, we're, we're formless now.
[SPEAKER_08]: We can, you can drift and wander, but, but I really love how,
[SPEAKER_09]: he you you think that he's working for you, Tony for a minute, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh man, I think I think he's actually double agent and then he just uses the boys as bait.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, like always long as I know what they're doing, I can I can I think, but also there's another secondary possible motive of like, hey, why don't we see if the you know on a scientific standpoint?
[SPEAKER_09]: Why don't we see if the Zena Morph is different if it comes out of an alive human instead of a long.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think there was, there's all these different motives you can describe to cares that are not human emotions, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: These are, these are cold, callous, machine-driven emotions.
[SPEAKER_09]: And if our robot overlords in ten years here, this, know that this is not derogatory towards you, this is not a toy eye.
[SPEAKER_08]: I really do love the Keers character and I'm glad that Timothy Olafont was the only other really wide known.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, I know that Alec Lawther is a very accomplished and story to actor, but really in terms of an American, bigger American audience and maybe global audience.
[SPEAKER_08]: his career is not as well known.
[SPEAKER_08]: So Timothy Olifand is like this one big star.
[SPEAKER_08]: I kind of like the fact that they kept the scope of the actor profiles narrowed like that so that Timothy Olifand
[SPEAKER_08]: his portrayal of Kirsch, it just lent something extra in a way.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I just loved all the little quips, you're grounded, or with your eyes, not your hands.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, all these parental things that he did, he just sounds exactly like somebody parents that I know who are not shouting at their kids, but they're like, do not touch that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, I love him in interviews.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's just so charming as a Muslim and that can't help even though he's playing this Android who doesn't have
[SPEAKER_06]: feel like right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, although I think that, you know, this would be, this is a question throughout Ali and obviously is, is do the Android's have emotions and some of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think all of them seem to actually, I think that people tend to underestimate them.
[SPEAKER_02]: But anyway, his charm can help it see through.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, Bishop says that in the 1986 movie, when he's going out to the
[SPEAKER_08]: Conlink Tower into the little tunnel thing, and Hudson says to him, like, yeah, yeah, you go, man, and Bishop says, look, I'm an Android, but I'm not stupid.
[SPEAKER_08]: So they do have a sense of self-preservation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but I think that we see them having emotional attachments to, and it's like people, it differs per, you know, like we see in in covenant, we see a big difference between David and what's the other one anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: the two doppelgangers, they are the same ostensibly different variants of the same model, but to see their lived experiences take them in such different directions emotionally and intellectually.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I teased a question earlier,
[SPEAKER_08]: In your episode eight coverage, I thought that you were a bit harsh on Dame Sylvia.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think Ayisha said she foolishly went to the grave because she feels above things.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think they were portraying her as distraught and probably grieving.
[SPEAKER_08]: She feels they're not handling the hybrids well.
[SPEAKER_08]: and generally things seem out of control with Isaac's death and nibs his issues.
[SPEAKER_08]: She may be misguided, but she and Arthur did seem to care for the kids who were dying of cancer and got a new chance of life.
[SPEAKER_08]: Also I'm guessing that she knows her husband is dead, even though they haven't explicitly shown that.
[SPEAKER_08]: that would help explain her foolish decision to visit the grave.
[SPEAKER_08]: Why go there unless she's thinking about death?
[SPEAKER_08]: Probably it was she and Arthur who were responsible for their being grave.
[SPEAKER_08]: So my question to you, Elisha, is Sylvia the real Dr. Frank at Stung?
[SPEAKER_02]: Um, well, just a respond to what he said here is that I completely agree that, um, I think Dame Sylvia has done wrong things, but I do think as I was saying when we were talking about the Sims Narts scale, I do think that her intentions have been good.
[SPEAKER_02]: She's just at the end of the last moment.
[SPEAKER_02]: Her husband shows morality of her preservation and she chose preservation of her morality.
[SPEAKER_02]: But about the question about, what do you mean, why do you think that would make her the real Dr. Frankenstein?
[SPEAKER_08]: Because, and please correct me if I have a mis-assumption about Dr. Frankenstein.
[SPEAKER_08]: But Dr. Frankenstein, as you mentioned in our bonus episode, got hyperfocused on the project.
[SPEAKER_08]: and then at some point was like, oh my god, what have I done?
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, I'm so taken with this idea and I'm just so wrapped up and then I didn't think about the consequences.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I wonder, you know, it did Dame Silvia in her interest in, in care, as Joe says for the children,
[SPEAKER_08]: and giving these children a sort of sense of hope.
[SPEAKER_08]: But at the same time, she's very committed to the transhuman project and seeing this project through and she's willing
[SPEAKER_08]: to stay with boy K after boy K fires her husband who's sort of the head of the IT side of the project.
[SPEAKER_08]: And she's like, yeah, I can do it.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay, you know, buy Arthur.
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, she doesn't walk out in solidarity with him.
[SPEAKER_08]: She makes a choice to continue the project for whatever her own motivations are.
[SPEAKER_08]: So the whole Dr. Frankenstein thing is like, I'm so in this that I'm not thinking of the consequences.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, I think just the fact that she shows any character the children disqualifies her because that is one of the definitive things about and this is not true in like the 1931 movie and generations thereof, but in the original book as soon as Dr. Frankenstein animates the creature he's like, I'm horrified, what have I done?
[SPEAKER_02]: I reject you creature and you shall go out into the world to suffer.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in that regard, the fact that she wants to stay close to them, she wants to keep taking care of her, sort of makes her an anti-franganstein in a way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's definitely, I was funny, Isha, it's come up a few times in her podcast and conversation with her about this idea of the female mad scientist and why we see that last.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dame Sylvia could, she's not there yet, but she could go that direction.
[SPEAKER_08]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_08]: Did you have any thoughts about Arthur and Sylvia and their moral conundrum?
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I mean, obviously Arthur is the envy hero of this series.
[SPEAKER_09]: Who's punished for doing a good thing?
[SPEAKER_09]: Right, right, but at the same time, well, I wonder is Arthur going to have like,
[SPEAKER_09]: some kind of role in his like we've never seen the eye image attached to a human what we know he did actually but this is what you were hinting at earlier about does the does the human caught is there something left of the human after the eye image takes over right right um i i i i think that we are being hard on Sylvia but maybe not untoward
[SPEAKER_09]: to Sylvia.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think she kind of has earned some of her, some of the flag.
[SPEAKER_09]: I mean, she erased the memories of nibs and, you know,
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm thinking of a journal sentient of the spotless mind, like some people would choose to erase the memories that traumatized them, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: That was a really good podcast when we covered that.
[SPEAKER_09]: That was when I was, you know, right, you'll have to pick the best movies.
[SPEAKER_09]: But... But that was not given agency, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: And it was not given the opportunity to decide, do I want to erase that traumatic memory or not?
[SPEAKER_09]: And I think that's what makes Sylvia a bit villainous here.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[SPEAKER_09]: I do think she was grieving and reflecting on her own mistakes when she visited the graves.
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't think she's a sociopath.
[SPEAKER_09]: Boy, K might be.
[SPEAKER_09]: But 100%.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think that she is a complicated character, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: She did some villainous things.
[SPEAKER_09]: At the same time, she's a human being, and she feels remorse for some of those things.
[SPEAKER_09]: And her husband leaving, I think, was the big catalyst for her to confront those feelings.
[SPEAKER_09]: She had been drowning them in something when, you know, the whole season.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think the point that Cincinnati Joe makes about the fact that it was probably her and Arthur who responsible for their being graves because I think boy K would have been like, oh, well, it's, you know, toss it out with the trash, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: We don't, we, they're not, you needed any more show off.
[SPEAKER_08]: They go.
[SPEAKER_08]: I really do think that Cincinnati Joe's a correct there.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that makes for a compelling and interesting villain, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: We could talk about the depth of her villainy, but that she is a complex character making really,
[SPEAKER_08]: making choices that are that we can see in different lights depending on what outcomes we look at or what relationships that we see her engagement.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think that's that makes for interesting and compelling storytelling.
[SPEAKER_08]: And it's the same with Morrow.
[SPEAKER_08]: Right as John might say, as John might say, sorry, you know, Moro can go kick rocks, but he is so compelling.
[SPEAKER_08]: He is so interesting as a villain.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think he's, and Bob, as you say, his performance is extraordinary.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he's so different, you know, when you see him in interviews, that is not personality at all.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's very bubbly.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, and this whole thing brings me back to Hannah or Ernst Abanality of Evil, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: Is evil acts are not generally done by supervillains and people who are without human emotion, they are done by regular people.
[SPEAKER_09]: It is the machine that keeps you going in these evil acts and it's your ambition.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's your willful blindness towards acts that are morally challenging for you, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: So Sylvia, I think keeps going.
[SPEAKER_09]: The greater good, the greater good.
[SPEAKER_09]: We're going to make everybody immortal even if we have to possibly kill these kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I do think she would I don't think she would stand for well except for nips.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think she could justify shutting nips down at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: But other than that, I can't see her standing for the kids being killed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: The hybrids.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_09]: I really don't know.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think she might be like, I think she might be at the point of, hey, we created monsters.
[SPEAKER_09]: We've got a
[SPEAKER_09]: And I think she might be resigned to especially visiting the graves.
[SPEAKER_09]: We did kill the kids.
[SPEAKER_09]: It was a mistake.
[SPEAKER_09]: We just have to get rid of the ghosts.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's interesting.
[SPEAKER_08]: But it's not like she's tearing her hair out or, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, she didn't.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, but I think that there is a part of her, it's preservation, as I said, but it is also a part of her that does, like if she doesn't want to abandon the kids, the hybrids.
[SPEAKER_09]: She has boarded some healthy glasses of whisky.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think she's tearing her hair out.
[SPEAKER_08]: I want to talk about Moro a little bit more though.
[SPEAKER_08]: If we started to and I just want to go back, I remember the scene where he touches the computer electrodes to his forehead or to his temples.
[SPEAKER_08]: And we get those pulsing lights and he's sweating and he's just the way that
[SPEAKER_08]: As the, you know, creature like when he stabs the guy on the ship on an episode five and he holds him up from the back like a xenomorph wood with its tail, I just loved the way that he's monstrous, but we can see into his past and we can have empathy for him at one level, which is interesting because he's also taking is a holly is taking the xenomorph and giving them language.
[SPEAKER_08]: which then creates a more complex and three-dimensional picture of the xenomorph if they have cooperation if there are some sort of rudimentary society involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they got me on Moro with just one montage of his daughter writing letters.
[SPEAKER_02]: That was it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, after that, it's really, and also, of course, the actor in interviews himself and
[SPEAKER_02]: and his relationship with, this is another thing I really need season two for.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that his relationship with slightly and, uh, me in particular could evolve in a very interesting way.
[SPEAKER_08]: That was some of my most favorite storytelling that was going on was that weird.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I want to, it was just preference.
[SPEAKER_08]: I like the storytelling.
[SPEAKER_08]: I didn't like when it was representing the grooming bathroom, but from a sort of a villain manipulating the stakes of the story, man, that was an expert level storytelling.
[SPEAKER_08]: What was your opinion of more overall?
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I mean, he's Captain Hook, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: I think it's interesting because I don't know if this is true.
[SPEAKER_09]: I've been told because I haven't read it.
[SPEAKER_09]: But the original Peter Pan, the pirates were the discarded lost boys, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: They were the ones who grew up.
[SPEAKER_08]: And I don't know if I can answer that.
[SPEAKER_09]: Is that true?
[SPEAKER_09]: Am I wrong?
[SPEAKER_09]: But did I miss you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, repeat that, repeat that, sorry.
[SPEAKER_09]: That the pirates in Peter in the original Peter Pan story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, we're previous law's boys.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think there's at least a version of that where that was true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Was that so in hook, then, movie?
[SPEAKER_09]: I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_09]: But anyway, all right.
[SPEAKER_09]: So let's go on that premise.
[SPEAKER_09]: I could be completely wrong.
[SPEAKER_09]: Marilyn right in.
[SPEAKER_09]: Let's let's say that's true.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's exactly what Moro is, right?
[SPEAKER_09]: He is a former tool of one of these corporations.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right, tool.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right, but I mean, he was he was attached to his own Peter Pan and now he's aged out right.
[SPEAKER_09]: He everyone he knew.
[SPEAKER_09]: He has nothing left, and so all he has left is to be a pirate and go in and steal back the treasures.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_09]: And so I thought he was a really good captain hook.
[SPEAKER_09]: I also saw somebody online saying they think Kirch is the real Peter Pan.
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: He's the immortal one who is keeping these lost boys alive and keeping them and using them too.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, this is the fun thing that Holly's done is he's, because it's not a one for one comparison.
[SPEAKER_08]: That there are elements that are sprinkled around into different characters that it makes for endless fascination, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: The crystal, you can examine so many different facets of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's two things on that one.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just looked it up and apparently it's a fan theory that's, uh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But it totally makes sense to me, um, but okay, my, my other fan theory in a way is, you know, we keep calling Moro hook and obviously there's, there's obvious reasons why we do that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the part of me and I know we have a character called Smee and we're all questioning why Smee, one of the last boys, um,
[SPEAKER_02]: Regus Me was a pirate in the book, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Me is like the second, yeah, the right hand of Captain Hook so to speak.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't mean that to be a pun, but they're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: But so then part of Me wonders if, you know, there's also if Moro is also the Me to Utahny's hook because Utahny is the main antagonist of our Peter Pan.
[SPEAKER_02]: someone on discord said maybe utanies tiger lily but i don't know to me she's like she's the secret captain hook and it makes more sense that moreo is her smee who's it's kind of more morally ambiguous character um hmm rufio that's who i want to know rufio
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, but that's a hook reference there.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, that was only only in hook.
[SPEAKER_02]: He's too busy ruling fire nation.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, right, right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's same actor played.
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: I know.
[SPEAKER_09]: No, for those who don't have time, we put on hook.
[SPEAKER_09]: My ego is, look, it's Zuko.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's, by the way, there's a great podcast about the last airbender with him, Donnie Bosco, and the woman who played Catara.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, not Catara.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: Frick, what's the second in this spin-off?
[SPEAKER_02]: The other.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yes, Korra.
[SPEAKER_02]: Korra, thank you.
[SPEAKER_09]: I should know that my wife had a dog.
[SPEAKER_02]: I should know that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm definitely this lack of proper sleep is that catching up with my brain juice.
[SPEAKER_08]: What other characters or actor portrayals do we want to talk about?
[SPEAKER_08]: Did Alex Lawther do a good job with Joe Hermit?
[SPEAKER_08]: He was his performances the one that constantly
[SPEAKER_09]: Can I tell you my theory on the name, Hermit?
[SPEAKER_09]: Sure.
[SPEAKER_09]: Are you aware of garden hermits?
[SPEAKER_09]: Hmm, I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay, this was a trend, a fashionable trend for the aristocracy in Europe from like the 15th century to the 18th century.
[SPEAKER_08]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_09]: And this was that you would allow a
[SPEAKER_09]: Permit a person who like a real person to set up a hut on your property in your garden and they were ornamental They were just live there
[SPEAKER_09]: and you could go bring them food, you could go, you know, watch them.
[SPEAKER_09]: You just got to observe your, it's your hermit.
[SPEAKER_09]: You can't do what you want with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I apply for that job?
[SPEAKER_09]: I know, I was like, this actually sounds pretty good.
[SPEAKER_08]: Sounds like a, watch tower for forest firefighters, you know, that that sit up there and they're isolated towers, watching out overall.
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, different job, but I actually looked at it jobs.
[SPEAKER_02]: I actually looked at light house attendance when I was like,
[SPEAKER_09]: But so I almost think that Joe with Epideo article on, I don't know, and so I think that Joe is being kept there as sort of the, the, it's interesting to hear him it for Wendy for Martin, I love it.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's kind of my running theory.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's your take.
[SPEAKER_02]: What do you think the deal is with their dad, with Mr. Papa Hermit?
[SPEAKER_02]: We keep getting these hints that he went through something where he was sick or injured or it's kind of vague.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this is definitely another season two question that's left hanging.
[SPEAKER_02]: and then it's you know there's sort of parallels with Wendy where I guess Joe couldn't visit him at the end either so could he pop up as was he an experiment for an older hybrid or my head cannon was that it's just a source of guilt and hurt feelings between the siblings.
[SPEAKER_08]: that, you know, he couldn't be there for windy towards the end, so further isolating her and making her more vulnerable to being used by prodigy and then Joe, you know, being away serving out his servitude in some unnamed corporal war on the other side of the planet.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so I think it's just a source of tragedy for the, that's, that's my head cannon.
[SPEAKER_08]: It's a source of tragedy for the siblings.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, if there's only one season, then I'll accept that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or if there's a second season, you need more watching out for Papa Hermit to pop up somewhere.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I guess we're story maybe it may be two met one, too many twists if they if they do something like crazy with him.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[SPEAKER_09]: But if they do it well, then I'll accept it.
[SPEAKER_09]: You know, that's kind of the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it was something where Holly was laying a little track just in case, you know, if the story goes to multiple seasons, that could be an interesting thing to explore in season three.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, I do hope that even if the show gets canceled, Holly, like, does what Mike Flanagan did with the Midnight Club and just like tweets out the right time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, though, I appreciate Mike Flanagan for that so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Favorite last voice?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, me, I mean, yeah, obviously, yeah, it's pretty good.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, poor one out for toothless, toothless, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_08]: Keep going in toothless all season long, I was going to toothless.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why.
[SPEAKER_09]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm naming Isaac, poor one out for Isaac.
[SPEAKER_08]: I thought Lily Newmark's portrayal of nibs was.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, it's so good.
[SPEAKER_08]: If you go back, like I was doing freeze-framents, you know, really doing deep analysis and pausing to playback and stuff.
[SPEAKER_08]: Her facial expressions, her reactions to things.
[SPEAKER_08]: There's a point when they're on the magino.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think it was maybe episode two.
[SPEAKER_08]: And Kier's is saying something to them about like, oh, quite shush now because boy K was calling him on the comms and he was trying to hear.
[SPEAKER_08]: And when, uh, news is character sort of does this teenager, I roll like, come on dad, like, you know, don't, don't treat me like this, just such subtlety in her performance.
[SPEAKER_08]: It was brilliant.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, I think all of them are 31.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: every single one of them, I can't believe they're not teenagers.
[SPEAKER_09]: Right.
[SPEAKER_09]: They do such a good job of acting like children.
[SPEAKER_08]: And this is where I really applaud FX for taking the time and spending the money and bringing in a, I forget what they said on the official podcast, but they brought in somebody like a child psychologist or somebody who works with children to help them sort of deconstruct their adult personalities and reconstructed a childhood perspective.
[SPEAKER_08]: And there's a great scene, I think, of slightly walking down the hall and he's running his finger on the wall, you know, because he's just, you know, so like you're sticking your window out the car window, you're, oh, you're hand up that car window or something like that.
[SPEAKER_08]: And they're just experiencing the world and enjoying these random sensations.
[SPEAKER_08]: And that kind of little touch just really put their performances over the line.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think I got six.
[SPEAKER_09]: Now I'm looking at all the 80s.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's like what?
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, also just finding the right actors and they saved money on not booking a bunch of big names for this.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they did that very, they did that very judiciously and instead they just found the perfect people to play these parts who could do that.
[SPEAKER_08]: I really agree with that.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think that's the least one big, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_09]: When you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it, you say it
[SPEAKER_06]: Well, he looks at him.
[SPEAKER_08]: I want to also shout out Adrian Edminson for playing Adam Eines.
[SPEAKER_08]: And if so, so props to Luke, at least for not only raising his hand first, even before I had the plan for the season, he messaged me on Discord.
[SPEAKER_07]: He's like, hey, you're doing, I hear you're doing alien Earth, can I, can I get on that?
[SPEAKER_08]: It's like, yeah, okay, all right, sure.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he helped actually create my idea for the squadron style and the set up for it all.
[SPEAKER_08]: So thank you, Luke.
[SPEAKER_08]: But if we hadn't had a Brit, a British person, point out that Adrian Edmunds is this very famous comedic actor of British origin.
[SPEAKER_08]: The depth of my appreciation for his portrayal would have been, you know, I would not have been able to appreciate it in the same way.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_09]: And I did get the ages for you, Alicia.
[SPEAKER_09]: How many actors, 29 and slightly is this 31?
[SPEAKER_09]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_09]: Which, again, like, especially slightly looked so yummy.
[SPEAKER_09]: Like, I can't believe it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, I love watching this whole cast and interviews because they are all so different.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're all so different from their characters.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_09]: They're actual grownups.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_09]: We'll start to like, sorry, I don't please, I really like Epic and when Wendy says, I'm, you know, I'm not Wendy, I'm not Marcy, I'm not a kid, I'm not a grownup.
[SPEAKER_09]: And he really shows how lost she is, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, no longer a girl, not yet a woman.
[SPEAKER_08]: Isn't that when he's sort of thing in the book she was in that transition zone.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, he was neither here nor there Well, let's start to wrap it up.
[SPEAKER_08]: Is there anything left on the table, Belisha that you have that you want to Share or final thoughts
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I just want shows like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I know you're a big fan of the pit.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was bummed about it winning the Emmy because I won severance.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just want shows like this that are inventive and that present storytelling and new formats and push that forward how we,
[SPEAKER_02]: think about storytelling.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want them to do well and get more recognition.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'll be ranking this high on my list this year.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I really hope that we get more seasons.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that this conservative swing that we're going through globally, that's also affecting Hollywood so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: I hope it doesn't clamp down on creative storytelling like this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Gotcha.
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, for me, the bear is also up there in that same thing, where it's a show that's really challenging the form and saying, what can TV be?
[SPEAKER_08]: You know, if we start then?
[SPEAKER_08]: We start to mix in movie sensibility, cinematic sensibilities in our quality of writing, the delivery of performance, the way that we film things, the things that we can film because our technology profile is very different, so what does it look like when we start to
[SPEAKER_08]: What what can we do?
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm sorry David, but I I can't wouldn't you go what ask what TV is I can't help but think of 30 rock Where jacked on it he says we know what art is it's paintings of horses Mean, that's not not art
[SPEAKER_08]: my wife and I recently rewatched.
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, and I think I mentioned this on second breakfast that we watched a little bit of season one and there's that great scene where he's got a picture of the tri-vection of an in his office in the wall.
[SPEAKER_08]: Brilliant.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, it's so good.
[SPEAKER_08]: Anyway, wrap up thoughts, John.
[SPEAKER_09]: I, I just hope that there's a season two.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think absolutely fantastic show, at least you said in her top five.
[SPEAKER_09]: I think probably in mind too.
[SPEAKER_09]: I just have to flesh out my my list here.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's a busy.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's a packed list this year.
[SPEAKER_09]: It is a packed list.
[SPEAKER_09]: Although the second half of the year is is less busy, which is interesting or at least a lot of border of the year.
[SPEAKER_09]: Yeah, a lot less busy as far as we know right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: But who knows, welcome to Dairy, could blow us all the way.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true, it could, so could, so could the Talamaska.
[SPEAKER_02]: So could, I'm so, I don't mean to, like, I'm, like, anything that AMC does if it's not rolling Jones, I'm skeptical.
[SPEAKER_09]: Look, I eat a coin flip because interview with the manlier.
[SPEAKER_09]: Fantastic.
[SPEAKER_02]: On TV.
[SPEAKER_09]: Maybe if her witches, one of the, maybe the worst show I've ever seen.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, I don't, I'm not going that far, but it's definitely does not live up to.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm gonna go that far.
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, and I'm here to quietly remind everyone that Vince Gilligan's new show Plurvis is starting in early November as well, and that isn't complete unknown.
[SPEAKER_08]: Nobody has any eyes on that yet.
[SPEAKER_08]: So we don't know what's coming there.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: My final final thought, which I don't know what I'm going to do with yet.
[SPEAKER_08]: This show.
[SPEAKER_08]: makes me appreciate no holly even more.
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't think this was a failure.
[SPEAKER_08]: I think there were some stumbles and some shortcomings, but none of it was so flawed that it diminished my appreciation.
[SPEAKER_08]: and one of the things that I love that Holly does is he plays with these ideas of absurdism and cosmic horror.
[SPEAKER_08]: And in some ways, this is a very noir, neon noir type of story where you start to realize that the world is bigger and more terrifying than you might have realized.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I just
[SPEAKER_08]: mixing of bigger philosophical feelings.
[SPEAKER_08]: And he played with a lot of philosophy in the show too, as well as giving us actions.
[SPEAKER_08]: So for me, this is damn near a, it's like you were saying before, Alicia, you know, you can give it whatever star rating you want, but then this definitely gets a little heart rating for me because even with its flaws, I loved the show so much.
[SPEAKER_02]: What flaws now?
[SPEAKER_08]: So, alright, well, I think that about wraps it up.
[SPEAKER_08]: I really appreciate you both spending some time coming in at the end.
[SPEAKER_08]: This was fun.
[SPEAKER_08]: There's a fun podcast.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm John.
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm really glad that you were able to speed run the season.
[SPEAKER_09]: So, yeah, I'm thank you for asking me to do this.
[SPEAKER_09]: It's been a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_09]: We don't get to pod enough together about media to lately, David.
[SPEAKER_08]: No, no, you and I have not played on.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think even Alicia we since the spring we haven't really been on much so well, you you have to catch up on piecemaker this week and then Oh, much more it's only it's also only eight episodes, but also you know, but I am only on episode three of season one
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, right, right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, there's shorter episodes at least, but it's going to tie into Superman next week.
[SPEAKER_09]: Oh, God.
[SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[SPEAKER_09]: I'm going to say, I'm going to say.
[SPEAKER_09]: All right.
[SPEAKER_09]: Promises here.
[SPEAKER_09]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_08]: All right.
[SPEAKER_08]: Let's think our supporters are discord server boosters and our lore masters.
[SPEAKER_08]: Alicia, would you do the server boosters if you have it open?
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, thank you to Erin Kay to live the thriller, Dove71, Athena Agelaia, let's do Nancy M. Ghost, Partition, Radioactive Richard and Audran.
[SPEAKER_08]: and John, if you could, thank the lawmakers.
[SPEAKER_09]: The lawmakers, Samarshan, Michael G, Michelle E, Brian P. S. C, Peter O'H, Adam S. Nancy M. Doe, 71, Brian 863, Frederick H. Sarah L. Garrett C, Matthew M. Sarah M. Andre B. Kwangu, that I Jedi Bob, Nathan T. Sub-Zero, Aaron K. Dally V. Mothership 61, N'Rose,
[SPEAKER_09]: Kathy W. Lestu, Jeffrey B. Eliseeu, Neil F. Benby, Scott F. Steven N. Julia F. Collie S. Ilmariow, forward slash Tim, Paul K. Bobby C. Ragizim, Jessica H. Redzippy, the TCS Mixie, and Adrienne.
[SPEAKER_09]: Thanks everyone for all your support.
[SPEAKER_09]: Help us get these wrap ups out, huh?
[SPEAKER_01]: Binge, piecebaker, and then you can tell John to binge, piecebaker.
[SPEAKER_08]: There you go, yeah, add him.
[SPEAKER_08]: Everybody add him on the discord.
[SPEAKER_08]: And the subscribers, you guys actually prop up this, the, you're the tent poles of this community.
[SPEAKER_08]: Anyone who subscribes, it gives us space to actually create this space.
[SPEAKER_08]: And so that's an important benefit too.
[SPEAKER_08]: You're not just directing support to us the creators of the podcast, but you're creating the,
[SPEAKER_08]: the room and the place where we can all come together and nerd out on the shows and movies and stuff that we love.
[SPEAKER_08]: So, final thanks to my season co-hosts to you, obviously Alicia and Luke for episode 1 and 2, Mark and Ian, do 71 and Brian 863, Anthony and Steve, Ron and JD and our dear dear friend,
[SPEAKER_08]: You guys really made a great season out of television to cover with me.
[SPEAKER_08]: So I appreciate all of you, and you're spending time with us.
[SPEAKER_08]: Alicia, thanks, John.
[SPEAKER_08]: Good to chat with you.
[SPEAKER_08]: And we'll be up for a spooktober coming, right?
[SPEAKER_08]: Looks like weapons is going to take it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So everyone start, start with barbarian and companion.
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a subscriber, and weapons will come toward the end of the month.
[SPEAKER_08]: Thanks, everyone.
[SPEAKER_08]: Bye.