[SPEAKER_00]: Hello everyone, welcome to the Delta Flyers journey through the wormhole with quark decks and their good friends, Tom and Harry.
[SPEAKER_00]: Join us as we make our way through episodes of Star Trek Deep Space 9.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your hosts for today are my fellow Trek actors, Armin Schermin, Robert Duncan McNeill, and myself Garrett Wong, and today we have a super, super special guest, Penny Johnson
[SPEAKER_01]: But back then, you were credited as Penny Johnson, because this is before you got married to Grayland, correct?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, you were already married to Grayland.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Grayland and I've been married for over 40 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my God.
[SPEAKER_04]: But something happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I had to change my name.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's worth sharing that story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_04]: We were at an event and someone called him Mr. Johnson.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and when we got home, he was Mr. Gerald, and he said, I, that did make him feel good.
[SPEAKER_04]: I got it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And to me, there's nothing more important than marriage to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I called my agents, I said, OK, I have to,
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to use my whole name.
[SPEAKER_04]: They said, so we want to do Penny, Johnson, Height, and Gerald, I said, no, I am not a Height, and Johnson is my middle name, because I promised my dad that we'd never leave his name.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I said, I'm hoping my whole name.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's why I was Penny, Johnson, Gerald, like overnight because of that incident.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, lovely thing for your marriage and for your relationship, what that says about the two of you, being able to communicate so great and good for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take notes, everybody.
[SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely, I haven't taken notes because for years now, when ever, Kitty is called Mrs. Shimmerman, she just hits the roof.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I've never, she's never changed her name, I've never changed her name, but I understand that, I think, or being called something that you're not, you know?
[SPEAKER_05]: So, he is you are who you are, you are not defined by your spouse.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Although, let's call me Johnson every when I act up.
[SPEAKER_04]: He said, you, you're a Johnson today, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: And when I have accidents, because we're of accident from the name for what my family does.
[SPEAKER_04]: We're called John's Clause.
[SPEAKER_04]: because we were accident-prout so oh my gosh and I actually just had it one of those moments too oh boy I'm a Johnson every now and then okay I'm gonna put that hat on and I mean I literally put my Johnson hat on because because I'm like this girl who like if you look at my nails and like horrible I like get into stuff and that's one of the reasons
[SPEAKER_04]: Probably like Cassidy so much because it was a big part of me like getting in there and doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So names are important
[SPEAKER_05]: And speaking of names, may I ask a question?
[SPEAKER_05]: You may not have an answer.
[SPEAKER_05]: You may not.
[SPEAKER_05]: Did Avery have a special name for you?
[SPEAKER_05]: What he just called you, Penny?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a good question.
[SPEAKER_04]: You would spell it as P.E.
[SPEAKER_04]: and N.Y.
[SPEAKER_04]: But when it came out of his mouth, it never sounds like Penny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, really?
[SPEAKER_00]: He would jazz it up.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was musical, it was quite musical and I married to a musician and I am not a jazz lover.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I learned to appreciate jazz through the musicality of eight years' voice and the conversation that we would have.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've talked about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: He definitely brings his love of jazz and music into the way he delivers lines, the way he plays scenes emotionally, the shape of the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially off camera, when you're just talking to him just as Avery, he speaks in jazz is the way I say and most people say when they talk to him because that's how he interacts with you when the camera's not rolling moves in jazz.
[SPEAKER_01]: He moves in jazz as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_04]: But that all that fights ill.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, like I followed his career, but I didn't know he was on deep space, not I before I ended up on these space not.
[UNKNOWN]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm tracking.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, unlike Grayland who is.
[SPEAKER_04]: Grayland was the right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was like, I just remembered him as the Hawk.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, what he represented on camera wasn't what everyone else was seeing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when I say that, this is when I'm I'm going to pull this card.
[SPEAKER_04]: He made the African American
[SPEAKER_04]: so proud to see this man who wasn't shaped in any other form other than he is this tall, dark handsome rhythmic, black, eccentric man.
[SPEAKER_04]: And he was powerful and it met so much to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I followed him with that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when I see a move like that, I mean, I have to move like
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I got.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so when we finally were on camera together, a deep space, nine, I felt myself always dancing with him.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hmm, hmm, that's a good way to put it.
[SPEAKER_05]: We all danced with him.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we've got a few birthdays to talk about, Penny, some exciting birthdays of our Patreon patrons, starting with Elaine Ferguson on October 28th, Happy Birthday, Elaine.
[SPEAKER_03]: Happy Birthday, Elaine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Happy Birthday, Elaine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Happy birthday to Elaine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mr. Darrell Chang, your birthday is on October the 30th.
[SPEAKER_01]: Happy birthday Darrell.
[SPEAKER_04]: Whoa, happy birthday Darrell, almost Halloween.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, so much Halloween and happy birthday Darrell.
[SPEAKER_00]: Happy birthday Darrell and speaking of Halloween, Jocelyn Peña has her birthday on October 31st.
[SPEAKER_00]: Happy birthday, Jocelyn.
[SPEAKER_04]: Happy birthday, Jocelyn.
[SPEAKER_01]: birthday, Jocelyn.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_05]: It must be terrible to have a birthday on Halloween.
[SPEAKER_05]: It must be too.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, well, everybody's getting excited about going trick or treating, you know, it's your birthday and no one's really paying attention.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I wouldn't imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have to hand out gifts to tons of kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the other thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not getting the gifts.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're handing them out all the yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh, I would think totally the opposite.
[SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't think that's the opportunity for you to be anybody you want to be true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, true.
[SPEAKER_01]: Class is half full and everyone celebrates your birthday as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you think about it, everyone's celebrating Halloween.
[SPEAKER_01]: So okay, yes, that's positive aspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Penny, we also do a little quick synopsis of the episode in the beginning.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a meandering synopsis.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now we have very, we've tightened it up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robby does a limerick and I do a high coup after which Armin will do a epicenteric pedantic conversation about the title of the title of the title of itself, the origin of the name of the title.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Robby will, yes, because it's an emology.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Robby, let's hear that limerick for for the cause.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, here's my poetry synopsis for the episode for the cause.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ben and Cassidy have true love, you can't deny, then Edington tells everyone there's a spy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Garic has some hesitation of Zial's real motivation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cisco's perfect love story will be hard to rectify.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_01]: Eddington, the mastermind, Ben's love life, on hold.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hmm, nice captures the essence there.
[SPEAKER_00]: We both sort of ended with the love story, the love life.
[SPEAKER_05]: When you both started with Cassidy.
[SPEAKER_05]: We did.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armen, what do you have for the etymology?
[SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[SPEAKER_05]: For all you word lovers out there.
[SPEAKER_05]: For the cause, the phrase for the cause does not have a single documented origin, but evolved from the Latin word cause, meaning reason or sake, and was adopted into middle English around the 12th to 13th century.
[SPEAKER_05]: The specific phrase likely emerged as people began using cause to mean a purpose, a movement,
[SPEAKER_05]: working for.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Latin, it's a middle English, no furniture, no.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's a middle English.
[SPEAKER_05]: Wow, cause, cause, cause, kkoza, that's something.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You guys are brilliant.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, but I would just have two sentences for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be back.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'll be here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This teleplay, well, let's say the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: The story is by Mark Garrett.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also thought, I thought, you know what?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's spelling G. G. E. H. R. E. D. Garrett, O'Connell of the story is by this individual.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I could change my name from G. A. R. R. E. T. T.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's similar.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mark here at O'Connell.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the story man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell a play by Ronald D. Moore, directed by James L. Conway, our good friend Jimmy.
[SPEAKER_01]: James.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also guest stars, Penny Johnson as Cassidy eights, Kenneth Marshall.
[SPEAKER_05]: Woody, before you go on, how many episodes had you done before this one?
[SPEAKER_05]: Do you remember?
[SPEAKER_04]: Uh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, well, I guess, and now for us to fall in love, then exactly exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanna say three, it feels like you had done three.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, intro.
[SPEAKER_04]: Which states this was the first season that I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: You came on.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is season four.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you came on season like I think season one or two.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's cool because, you know, if you think about this, you are the first African American female captain in Star Trek canon.
[SPEAKER_01]: You preceded any other female.
[SPEAKER_01]: Even, I think, would she have appeared before Janeway appeared then?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I've pulled up the episodes that you did.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you did one episode in season three.
[SPEAKER_00]: You did family business.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was the introduction of your character?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you did two more in season four before this.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were in way of the warrior and in discretion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a total of three episodes before this.
[SPEAKER_00]: This was only your fourth episode.
[SPEAKER_03]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_03]: We were heated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why I asked because that first scene is really quite sexy, and I thought, well, how long have they been working together?
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I can answer that, though, if you put it that way, and this is really the truth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Our chemistry was so electrified that we knew that we were going to limit talking to one
[SPEAKER_04]: It was as though we both, every happily married, penny, happily married, and we both really honored marriage.
[SPEAKER_04]: But our chemistry was really like thick, it was crazy, but we knew that we would
[SPEAKER_04]: that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's we use it for the camera and that's what you've got.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it didn't matter if I hadn't done one episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I don't know, once in a lifetime, you'll meet someone other than your spouse.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like, woo.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, so, but we were, we were pros.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'd like, I never want to add myself to the back of being a pro.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I know that's what it was.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was for fashion.
[SPEAKER_04]: and a great respect for one another, but truly a great respect for marriage and being able to be in this business and do well in this business, but protect that thing that's most important to us.
[SPEAKER_04]: That we actually come home to.
[SPEAKER_04]: And at the end, this career thing, that's what we really have.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for you both to kind of recognize that and to use the energy in the power of that in, in, in,
[SPEAKER_00]: your work, but know where those boundaries are.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Robby, what's the air date?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have an air date of that season three episode of Dunham?
[SPEAKER_00]: I see.
[SPEAKER_01]: The very first episode, I'm just curious about what you're showing up on some made comparison.
[SPEAKER_00]: May 15th, 1995.
[SPEAKER_00]: So around the same time, they were creating the Janeway character.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were thinking of creating your character, Penny.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the idea of female
[SPEAKER_00]: actresses in Captain positions was in the, you know, in the Star Trek writers room.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were talking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if it's made that they showed that episode, January is when Voyager premiered, so Janeway pre-dates or precedes Captain Cassidy Hates.
[SPEAKER_00]: Janeway, we aired just around the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just before months, really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once before, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like Captain Janeway Penny, Cassidy Yates has just as many hair styles.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like every episode is a different hair style.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first one, thank goodness, they moved on from that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, it came up like this and they tried way too hard.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sure, let me tell you, I sat in that chair and this, I had to call my husband because he's my manager, then I had to call my agents almost immediately.
[SPEAKER_04]: because they shaved my hair here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I didn't sign on for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I said, you know, it's early on and I was doing two other shows at the same time, too.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't want this changed.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, but they did change it, but because they changed that, I didn't recognize myself.
[SPEAKER_04]: And because I have a hair line on, I'm hairy and you know, I have the hair, you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so, um, they shaved it off and I hated it and I said,
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if I'm going back there, and it was good for the hair.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so the next time I said, well, we're going to use my hair line if you make it back.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's, we had that discussion.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it was a bow hair.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know what's interesting, Penn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've talked to Michelle heard about this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was involved in this with the Union and negotiations.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the hair departments, there's not been historically a great representation for African American hair stylist and ethnic hair stylist and I've experienced that as a producer and director on shows.
[SPEAKER_00]: wanting to improve that and wanting to bring in the right people for the actors that we have in the chair because you know I don't know who was in the hair department exactly on DS9 but they they were probably great with wigs for aliens and things like that they were fabulous.
[SPEAKER_04]: But to shave your hairline is so inappropriate, oh my goodness, um, I mean, obviously I'm still growing it back because I think some of the, so it's so right here, it's then, it could be age, but um, that's where they shaved it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and avery, avery brought in his own hair person, uh, for him, because for the very reasons we're talking about here, he wanted to have a person of color to do his hairline.
[SPEAKER_00]: who knew ethnic hair, who knows historically, and has experienced that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's absolutely appropriate.
[SPEAKER_00]: You should.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, you have to, because I've been in this business for a very long time.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I guess you guys too.
[SPEAKER_04]: But as an African-American woman and having
[SPEAKER_04]: lots of hair and nowadays there are wigs or weaves and all kinds of things but I never did that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always had my own, my own hair and people who are not used to my texture hair, they were happy to try out.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yes, I protect it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't try out on my hair.
[SPEAKER_04]: So from almost the beginning, I would have my hair prepped and you'd have a producer or show, say, well, just come in that, you know, it's not big deal, but yes, it is a big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's been a really big deal because I'm an actress where what's I'm finished in that chair here to make up.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to think hair make up because I want for the job.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I need to know that the person who's doing my hair or my makeup is quite attacked at doing that so that I don't have to worry about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know there lots of actors black or white or whatever who, you know, they want to do this.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not that girl.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to leave your chair being that character and then I don't want to think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Don't want to think about it for the rest of the day.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to be too cute.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to be too ugly.
[SPEAKER_04]: I want to be the character.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that was a big deal.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I fought for it and I think every fought with me on that one.
[SPEAKER_04]: Interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: And we won.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad you stood up, I'm glad you stood up because my feeling is when you see that first hairstyle that they're doing, the ridiculous one.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I am distracted by staring at your hair, then the hair is not right.
[SPEAKER_01]: You actually be staring at your face.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're doing the scene, not at your hair, and it was so distracting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for standing up and making sure that the Cassidy's hair was done correctly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Armin, you had something to say right before I went into this whole hair segue.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, going away, way back, it's no surprise you're talking about the serendipity or the timeline between Voyager and Deep Space Night.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's no surprise that this episode is about the McKee, because at this time, the studio is prepping for the Mergent of Voyager, which starts out with the
[SPEAKER_05]: with a dislike between the McKee and the Federation, which is the first part of your first episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: Sorry, so we're sort of prepping for the onslaught of Voyager.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what we were talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: The onslaught.
[SPEAKER_05]: The onslaught.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was a tidal wave that that subdued us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really?
[SPEAKER_05]: We were totally lost when Voyager came on.
[SPEAKER_05]: It allowed us to do things that we wouldn't normally have been allowed to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: because no one was paying attention to Deep Space 9.
[SPEAKER_05]: They were all paying attention to this new show Voyager as they should, but the glasses have full, we were allowed, we weren't allowed.
[SPEAKER_05]: We did episodes that the studio would have said no to if they had been paying more attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think your show benefited from the lack of micromanagement.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it did because it got significantly stronger the stories and these these big arcs that that were into now are so fascinating and so well done.
[SPEAKER_05]: The studio did not want linear stories.
[SPEAKER_05]: They wanted episodic stories and I read just didn't want to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's finish off these guest stars.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, we have Kenneth Marshall, of course, is Michael Eddington, Tracy Midendorf, as Torah Zell.
[SPEAKER_01]: So no longer see a baton who we were used to for a couple of episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have a new actress playing gold to cuts, daughter, Torah Zell, Tracy Midendorf.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have John Proski as Barathal when am I dear friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, he played the Bolian.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's your friend.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, John Proski also a member of NTS.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, he's he now lives in these goes, but it was and he is the son of Bob Proski a very famous character actor and John is a
[SPEAKER_05]: and superb teacher, which is what he's doing now, and extraordinary teacher, and he worked with youth that had been lost in society, and did a great job.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's a terrific, and I directed his wife, came into co-in production of the Crucible as well.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_05]: Is he teaching Shakespeare or general acting?
[SPEAKER_05]: He does.
[SPEAKER_05]: He teaches Shakespeare, but it teaches general acting.
[SPEAKER_05]: Great.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, and I can't remember the universe.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think it's in North Carolina or South Carolina.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I, but he's been there for a number of years now.
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's still.
[SPEAKER_03]: What do you do?
[SPEAKER_05]: It isn't Duke, but it's one of one of the universities on the East Coast in that area.
[SPEAKER_05]: It might even be Georgia, but I should know and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, whatever university is, they're lucky to have them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like a really great teacher.
[SPEAKER_05]: And this was, you know, forgive me, John.
[SPEAKER_05]: But this was a thankless role, and he does a nice job with it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And had to undergo all of that makeup, really, which was always a problem.
[SPEAKER_05]: you can never watch that.
[SPEAKER_00]: John Proski teaches at Savannah College of Art and Designs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In Skate Savannah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: Know that well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great school.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Great school.
[SPEAKER_01]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_01]: Vincent Lee or Le, I'm not sure how he pronounces it, as Reese, as Lieutenant Reese, first of all, I'm excited that they have an Asian character without an Asian last name.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then this man pronounces, and the funny thing is when I started looking him up online, I typed in Steven Vincent and then immediately Busemi popped up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So Steve Busemi's middle name is also Vincent and also he spells at STEVEN and not STEPHEN, like other people do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then some weird, weird little thing popped up looking at Steven Vincent Lee and it said he was on this list, Robby.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's on IMDB.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's on Jules' list of handsome and masculine actors.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's 243 guys on that of which you and I are not on that, Robby.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's all of that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Armin, you're not on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armin's on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Armin's on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Armin's on it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Armin's on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's like all these real square-jalled guys in Hollywood and I go, oh, he made it on that one because when I look at this actor I think he was very handsome.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's the prototype for the Asian Kendall.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know Barbie and baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's perfect as Ken.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he would be okay He really was good looking and I didn't even think about him when we were doing it But I did rate watch it That's it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's fine
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, Penny, the reason why you did notice it, now you notice it is because of a conversation we had in a convention about a new show that you started watching.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you remember the, it's the, the, the all Asian cast show, the one that you, you were talking about.
[SPEAKER_04]: Warriors.
[SPEAKER_01]: Warriors, right, warrior.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was saying this, I'm sitting there at dinner with Penny and her husband Grail.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Penny's like, Oh, if this show would come out when I was young, I don't think I'd be married to Grail and right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, No, don't say that in front of Grail and she was so like,
[SPEAKER_01]: Annabred with Asian men after that, it was so funny and now you see how handsome Stephen Vincent Lee is after you're rewatched.
[SPEAKER_04]: But what I didn't tell you was that my first marriage proposal was from an Asian guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_04]: Didn't tell me that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And yeah, he was madly in love and I didn't know he was going to propose.
[SPEAKER_04]: And a year later, I've married Grayland, he was in the Marines, and this was at the Marines, the ball, and I guess he told everybody, which was, and I said, oh, I can't marry you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna just met you and I'm not in love with you, but no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, Stephen Visiting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for sharing that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: How many broken hearts have you given, Peter?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I was standing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm a few.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would think so.
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's their fault because I never, no, truly, because I've never like, I don't know what, what, what is it with you guys?
[SPEAKER_04]: You go on a date with a girl and then you go around telling everybody,
[SPEAKER_04]: That's your girl, it's like, you're my breakfast.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh boy, I'm going to have lunch and I'm going to have dinner too.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, ladies and gentlemen, you heard it here.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Lessons to be heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Lessons to be heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, we have another special guest are of course Andrew Robinson, the fabulous Andrew Robinson is Garrick.
[SPEAKER_00]: And which part did he play?
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's do a little bit of trivia before we get into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, Mark Garrett O'Connell's original inspiration for this episode was the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, specifically, Gertocano was surprised by the reaction of the American people, quote, for the first few days after the event, everyone was so sure that it was foreign terrorist.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone who appeared Middle Eastern suddenly was under suspicion for no reason at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as it transpired, the bombing was carried out, not by a Middle Eastern terrorist, but by Timothy McVey.
[SPEAKER_01]: A white American, a Caucasian American, this led Gertocano to speculate what might happen if a
[SPEAKER_01]: quote in a situation like that, who would they immediately suspect what if it turned out to be the last person in the world to come to mind?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to play with that idea and ended up being a story where a Cassidy Yates turns out to be the number one suspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: So only a few remnants of this idea remain in the final episode, but the notion of the perpetrator of a crime being the last person you suspect is still to be seen in the Eddington defection plot.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the original
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not know that and I thought that was amazing.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I must say Ken Marshall doesn't extraordinary job as dating to not a he does.
[SPEAKER_05]: He doesn't get anything away until the end and it's really quite impressive.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, quite impressive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another piece of trivia when Ronald D. Moore began to compose his script from Garrett O'Connell story.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were actually three separate but connected Machie stories, not two, as there are in the finished episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the third idea that was not used in this episode was a story idea involving the clingsons and the mock-y.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was clingson involvement as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they stayed with the other two.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, that's it on trivia.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now it's time for Robin to jump right into the very first scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, here we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go through the whole episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they might see it back memories and incredible work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was really a great episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, I really love this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So just interrupt one at any time you need to.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, go Robbie Robbie.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, so our first scene starts in Cisco's bedroom.
[SPEAKER_00]: We see Cassidy and Cisco in bed.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've had a lovely night together.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've never seen you in bed before together.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a big step for these characters.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, you see us in bed later, not in this episode, but being in bed,
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a different state, that's a nice level.
[SPEAKER_04]: I was different, a difficult one time we were in bed and we had, we stopped production because above we got a phone call and that we may not be doing this scene.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very hurtful because of the reasoning that we knew was behind it to have two African-American
[SPEAKER_04]: people in bed as lovers and loving and instead of throwing at it like animals.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so it was to normalize for the power to be.
[SPEAKER_04]: So subsequently there was another bedroom scene and there were things that we just we were restricted.
[SPEAKER_04]: We were limited.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's beautiful to me and for me to see that and to have experience that and to for others to see that too because that's normal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It felt very normal and and story wise we hadn't seen these characters take the step like we talked about before three episodes.
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew that you were going on dates and spending time together and going on trips together.
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew that.
[SPEAKER_00]: but we didn't know that you had taken this step of intimacy this way and it felt very normal and very relaxed and very natural and I thought it was a great great scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah my my notes were just that this was um this was the most tender that I've ever seen these two characters there's tenderness.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is, there's a little bit of a repartue going on in the dial.
[SPEAKER_01]: Layfulness, yes, so tenderness, playfulness, and normalcy.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the type of thing that we all are used to seeing or experiencing in our own lives, in our own relationships, and it's just wonderful.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's an ease in this scene that is, it's just wonderful to see.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if I made to just to advocate for our writers, the performances are stored and I said that earlier on, it's just wonderfully sexy and easy, as you all said.
[SPEAKER_05]: But also, they're attacking something that, yeah, the studio isn't too happy about.
[SPEAKER_05]: And they're saying, we're going to go there because we want to go there because this is people's idea.
[SPEAKER_05]: So Bravo to the writing staff for saying, we don't care if it's a problem for the studio, we're going to do it anyway.
[SPEAKER_04]: I agree with you, Armin, on a metaphorical note, the bed to me is a real strong foundation.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it is the ultimate form of intimacy between two people.
[SPEAKER_04]: And knowing where this episode goes, if you can reflect, by at the end of the episode, to back here to this bed.
[SPEAKER_04]: we have shaken that up.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I, when you look at it that way, I love to see the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is, the writers again, like Armin said, how brave of them, but not only how brave of them, they were thinking, I think they were thinking.
[SPEAKER_00]: Penny, you remind me of something.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a website, and I'm going to look it up in a second, but there's a website called First and Last Frames, where they take the first frame of a movie and the last frame of a movie.
[SPEAKER_00]: And in great films, there's an intentionality to that, that the very opening image,
[SPEAKER_00]: is either similar or different in some way to how the movie ends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you're pointing out like they end up in bed and end up with her walking away.
[SPEAKER_00]: That first and last image of this episode is very powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a story just in that.
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't think this episode would be as powerful without that first scene because it goes where both of them are coming from.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if they just been sipping coffee somewhere, it would not have been as powerful.
[SPEAKER_05]: This sets 100% relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cassidy's got to go back to meet her engineer, she says, on her ship, so she's gets up, goes to change.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did like technically the way that you're changing clothes off camera, so there's a couple lines you have off camera, and then you pop back in and you're dressed, and it was just very, I've been through that as a director before, where how are we going to get the actor to get out of bed?
[SPEAKER_00]: and get them changed in time and it was just handled Jim Conway and you guys handled it beautifully.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, you know, you wouldn't even notice it unless you're somebody who's been through that kind of scene before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, that can be a, you know, stop, get her dressed, you know, now pick up where we left off and all that, so it was done really well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good switcheroo.
[SPEAKER_05]: And to go to the end of this scene,
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't know whose choice it was, whether it was in the script or whether it was Avers' choice, but the smelling of the pillow, and then putting his head on it, was enormously sexy to warmly evocative of what their relationship was.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, I didn't catch that.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, to speak to that, Armin, that thing that I mentioned before, where we knew that off-camera, we wouldn't, you know, have too much of a discussion or a time,
[SPEAKER_04]: we did allow one another to do that without feeling violated or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the rehearsal, I remember when I was going to kiss or whatever, that's not scripted, but we knew that if we're going this fast on television, that we need to show that there is
[SPEAKER_04]: a progress.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I would say I'm probably going to like kiss you here and there and there.
[SPEAKER_04]: We'll just say it so that on the on the take we did it.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we didn't do a lot of rehearsing.
[SPEAKER_04]: doing it.
[SPEAKER_04]: We just said it's here and here and you know.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we were both surprised, even though we knew what was coming, we were both surprised and we're able to genuinely react to what was happening in the moment.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think.
[SPEAKER_04]: It really paid off in a lot of ways.
[SPEAKER_05]: It did.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if I might point out to the audience, there probably wasn't, there wasn't an intimacy coach here.
[SPEAKER_05]: It was just the two of you two actors discussing and what you're going to do, how lovely that you talked about before you did it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Nowadays, I would imagine Robby, you can chime in here.
[SPEAKER_05]: Nowadays, I think that something would be required than intimacy coach to say, okay, if you do this, we'd have to have a coach.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you know, sometimes you just don't need a coach.
[SPEAKER_05]: The actors are good enough to know what they're going to do and tell each other just what you explained, Penny.
[SPEAKER_05]: I understand the need for an intimacy coach.
[SPEAKER_05]: I get that, I get that a lot, but sometimes it is required because of what you were just saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's trust.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's a matter of trust.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that's what I mean, old school from the theater, you know, the games that we play.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what I'm teaching.
[SPEAKER_04]: I still do those games.
[SPEAKER_04]: you fall into the crowd because they're going to catch you and so you must you must work on that trust and that way we're not I think we have far less of these situations where I've got to have someone in to
[SPEAKER_04]: say he's going to touch me here and he ends up here or whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I definitely agree with you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I do honor that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if it's a little more than that, I do want the coach.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Cassidy heads off to her ship to meet her engineer.
[SPEAKER_00]: We cut to the ward room.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a big meeting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Eddington's starting us off here with super secret information.
[SPEAKER_00]: Starfleet's giving industrial replicators to the Kardashians because the clingsons have damaged
[SPEAKER_00]: the Kardashians colonies much worse than they thought.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is super secret information.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, he says they need to protect this delivery from the Machi, who are going to try to take them and
[SPEAKER_00]: the mock year making we learn they're making a big push during this time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the Kardashians, the Clingsons, are fighting each other in the mock year, exploiting that for more power and more control.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he breaks up the super secret information, and everybody starts to leave, and after they leave, Odo and Eddington tells us go that they think,
[SPEAKER_00]: one of these marquee that he was talking about, a smuggler is actually on the station, and Cisco's like, well, who is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: And they look at each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of awkward moment, and they tell him, cast to the E.A.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, well, no way, it takes a while for me to get that information.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just tell me, just tell me.
[SPEAKER_00]: again it's not for sure it's just on hearsay and i had uh i had an an omelet for breakfast i mean they're saying everything but the actual information very funnier and also sysco does send warf out with the defiant to patrol the badlands to show the flag let the monkey know that they're there so you know they're starting to make some moves to try to prevent the monkey from exploiting this situation
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, I must say, one of the quibbles I had and it's a quibble about this episode, and I understand why, but this is the first of many.
[SPEAKER_05]: There are times when I go, why is Odo there?
[SPEAKER_05]: Now, I understand the delivery of the information that you just mentioned, but doesn't Eddington say you need a level, a level seven guarantee.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wouldn't imagine this was a starfleet meeting.
[SPEAKER_05]: not not the police corps for deep space nine.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I understand him coming in later.
[SPEAKER_05]: I just don't understand why he was in there.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there are various times in this episode where I go, why is Odo there?
[SPEAKER_05]: And I understand the necessity because you have to get him off the station.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's part of the, not only do you have to get Cisco off the station, but you have to get Odo off the station.
[SPEAKER_05]: And but that's a quibble, a little tiny quibble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what have been nice if the writers had said something like, I've looped, you know, we're looping in Odo, Starfleet's aware because of his position on the station or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they had just said something about it, then, because I had the same thought a couple of times, like, wait, I thought this was just Starfleet doing this part.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_04]: I read this episode and that scene in particular.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have remember that was the first time I even heard the word,
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yes, because I'm not a tracking and so I was like, oh my gosh, I have to do this episode and they're talking about this group and I'm real it's really important for me that I know this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I go to the encyclopedia in my house, great long Gerald.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what I'm doing, and then he explains who they are, and I go, oh okay, and Penny's idea and immediately was something different.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was right along with what eventually ends up being Cassidy's idea.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in this scene, I'm trying to navigate.
[SPEAKER_04]: who's in this room and what's happening in this room.
[SPEAKER_04]: But when I see Cisco's reaction, I forget about the marquee.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I know that this is a board of information for everyone, especially people like myself who don't know what it is and politically what's going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: But Cisco's reaction to me.
[SPEAKER_04]: was unbelievable.
[SPEAKER_04]: Every was able to show this tortured kind of what's going on and what if it's so and you better be sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: You blame in this or you're making accusations.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said, what's not accusations?
[SPEAKER_04]: suspect or you know something that we might want to look into.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't know at that point the level of security on these space nines.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I didn't know that you can see him like, okay, what are they getting at?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's almost like
[SPEAKER_04]: But the leader where you don't want to disappoint him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no, and Eddington.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're definitely not not comfortable sharing.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're walking on egg shells that I know the relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah, sure.
[SPEAKER_04]: I started understanding the relationships other than the one that I had.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, right after you go when you go.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, primarily this is my relationship But when I was reading the script I got what wait a minute.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are other relationships So what is a hierarchy what what really is yeah, each space not in about and that's actually what I was what I thought I was getting in that That particular scene trying to then so when Armin brought up why was Otto in the room and all I
[SPEAKER_04]: At that point, I wasn't thinking anything like that, because I didn't understand the full relationship.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Doc's getting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Penny, the actor with his new thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, it's incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, after they drop the bomb that it's Cassidy Yates, they go to commercial, well, they from Odono, from Cisco's completely job phase.
[SPEAKER_01]: Many emotions are going through.
[SPEAKER_01]: They go to commercial break, come back, and he asks for evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: He goes, what evidence do you have?
[SPEAKER_01]: And Odono says, listen,
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a run that she does, and it normally takes 12 hours, but for some reason, it takes Cassidy 18, which is just enough time to do a side run to the badlands and drop off some goods to the Machi and come right back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so now, Cisco's like, okay, so now you're criticizing her for taking longer than it normally should.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not enough of a reason, and they go through more evidence, which is a Starfleet Intelligence Report.
[SPEAKER_01]: about how Starfleet has infiltrated a marquee cell.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a partial list of contacts in the Bejorn sector.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, one of the contacts just started living on DS9 in the last six months, which matches the timeline of when Cassidy 8 started living on DS9.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's their other, you know, it's getting hotter now, basically, this information, at which point again, as Penny said, every's playing it on his face this whole damn time.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, what the hell is going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to like make reason out of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the end, he just, he's frustrated, but he says, listen, if there's a reason to search the vessels, come up with one, you know, do the search.
[SPEAKER_00]: we do we yeah he says we do searches like this all the time random searches on ships if you can come up with a reason to do one of those random searches on hers then do that yeah how many of us have been in a situation where you you know what what is right to do what you still have is this bond this
[SPEAKER_04]: The thing and you don't want to break this thing that's so real that you need, but there's a duty and that's one wonderful thing about, you know, science fiction and especially Star Trek and Deep Space Nine.
[SPEAKER_04]: you haven't a sense of honor and in what it is that you do and so you see that torture you see this man as a man and then you see this man as the leader of the captain on this this space and
[SPEAKER_04]: what turmoil.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, and you see it there.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you know you're in for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then the whole marquee situation as an audience, as a person who's just reading it, I'm not sold that there's such bad people.
[SPEAKER_00]: But at the end, by the end, they make some good arguments of being sure to do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: They leave it up to you to decide about the McKee.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: Good writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say one thing that you made me think of Penny is that this kind of internal struggle is very relatable that Cisco is going through.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you've got somebody who you,
[SPEAKER_00]: are intimately connected with in your workplace and suddenly everybody's coming up to you I'm going you know they're not doing their job or I've been in that situation I worked with someone once who was very close to a colleague and everyone was having trouble with this colleague but the boss was really close to this person and no matter what people told him
[SPEAKER_00]: The boss just could not do, could not investigate.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was just like that personal relationship gotten the way of him investigating what 99% of the other people around that work environment could see.
[SPEAKER_00]: He couldn't see it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think this story is very relatable for people.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've either been on one side of this story or the other.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've had somebody that they really care about.
[SPEAKER_00]: who they have to look into or they've been on the other side where that person is be looked into and the bosses and looking into them.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I've glad the choice was made that he is going to allow them to look in because that speaks to the strength and the reason why he's captain and nobody.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, the integrity that he has.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if I'm looking at it from Edington's point of view, he makes your character Penny, a sacrificial lamb.
[SPEAKER_05]: You haven't been told any of this stuff.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're going to investigate you.
[SPEAKER_05]: You don't know anything about that.
[SPEAKER_05]: You are the sacrificial lamb and in reality, he doesn't really care what happens to Cassidy Yates.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's just concerned about his overall plan.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's really ugly if you go back and think about it and it's a it's a credit to Ken Marshall that he didn't make it ugly But if you think about it, it is ugly.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah Yeah, that's yeah, but you don't really get that until Yes, until you go back and think about it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, when you go back you go as well But because at this point, I think that Cassidy is
[SPEAKER_04]: doing something that you truly believe in.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And there are several people, series regulars who have speeches that advocate in your favor, not you per se, but in the McKee's favor.
[SPEAKER_05]: And you are one of those people helping the McKee because you believe in their cause.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think that the parallels or that's exactly what Cisco was going through.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you take Cassidy and Cisco, they're both going through the exact same thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: right but he is as you say or he says is he is the the paragon of of starfleet captains he has to do what he has to do actually with that first scene he despite the wonderful intimacy between the two of you were also being told what his responsibilities are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, he says he's the Paragon of Virtue.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what he says now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we go to the Springball Court next.
[SPEAKER_00]: I love this opening shot with the ball coming right at the lens.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice job, Jim Conway.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a crowd cheering on the Springball game, which I assume the ball was visual effects.
[SPEAKER_00]: because there's it was a force field glass wall or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I assume that after that first shot the opening shot it probably was just a visual effects ball and they were just jumping around swatting at the air probably.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here's where I am confused.
[SPEAKER_01]: Springball.
[SPEAKER_01]: have we see, okay, you know, when we talk to Ryan a lot, but when we Ryan has played against Bashir, isn't that spring ball?
[SPEAKER_01]: They're they're hitting the same thing against the wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only difference is they're wearing helmets now and they're tackling.
[SPEAKER_01]: They thought, they didn't do that before.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what on God's Earth is happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bull contact Racketball basically.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but haven't we seen this Robbie in I guess I think we have hitting a ball against a wall like Racket ball But nobody tack was anybody and nobody wears a dead gum helmet and now is this thing Garrett if you if you're a rugby film like I am there's different versions of rugby Oh, there's union Oh, there's all kinds of different versions of I know this is full contact spring full contact sharing ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right
[SPEAKER_00]: find.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's playing someone in this game though.
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: We never see who it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: They take their helmet off, but then they turn their face away.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a stunt person.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could have been Cassidy Yates for all we know, we don't even know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jim Conway did a very good job in the stunt department.
[SPEAKER_00]: The doubles did a very good job because I bought it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a great, very physical game and a great love watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And not only did I love watching it, Garak and Bashir love watching it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just hearing, they're up in the stands, but Garak is very distracted because he keeps looking over at a Cardassian.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know who this was because it's a whole new actress.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was looking at him looking at this Cardassian going, wonder who that's gonna be?
[SPEAKER_00]: Then he says, z-all, I was like, what?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a different actress.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's it's a different actors, but but she's not just a card acid.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's also but you're on.
[SPEAKER_05]: You can see the Yeah, the rigid.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's true.
[SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of facial structure.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you compare see a baton has a thinner face, this actress has a rounder face when I saw her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought, oh, this is if Mary Kate Austin, the Olson twins from Full House grew up and played Cardassian.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's a different song.
[SPEAKER_05]: Totally different.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a very gentle, very gentle performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my, it is a wonderful performance.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very nuanced.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But we'll get to that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, so near when I first saw Cardassian in the script, I was like, oh, OK, this is cool.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then a show came on.
[SPEAKER_04]: The Cardassians, I said, oh, it must be a spin-off.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the carton, the carton, the carton, keep you up with me.
[SPEAKER_04]: The carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the carton, the
[SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if any fans have made like a fan video keeping up with a card to ask I think that's out there I think there is a fan video keeping up with the cardassians and yes, I think there's a fan something on YouTube for that I hope there is I got I got to go find it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would watch that spin off by the way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would do exist
[SPEAKER_00]: The sheer, but sheer tells Garric, you know what, stay away from to God's daughter, not only is that to God's daughter, it's here as friend, it's trouble, and Garric's like, I don't know how bad intentions, I have no bad intentions for her, but he's very obsessed with her, he keeps watching her, he can't, can't, can't, you know, take his eyes off of.
[SPEAKER_00]: of her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, she's also looking back at him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's just watching the match.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's got a little, there's a little innocent flirtation.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's hard to tell it's flirtation or do you read that at this point to me?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, are they threatening each other or are they flirting or what's going on?
[SPEAKER_05]: I thought more is flirtation.
[SPEAKER_05]: I suppose there is some danger, but for me was mostly flirtation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go 60% flirtation 40% danger.
[SPEAKER_03]: Now you go back to Gagas' just because you look at me, you're my girl thing.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what it sounds like to me.
[SPEAKER_03]: I thought it was a dare.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, oh.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be a dare.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Bashir now is so distracted from the game that Kira wins the game, the match at the end.
[SPEAKER_00]: Everybody cheers, but Bashir goes, what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: What happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: And Carrick says, so it's a brilliant move on the part of the major you should have been paying attention.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I like the button there at the end where.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she was tried to be focused on the game and then
[SPEAKER_00]: Mrs. Lee.
[SPEAKER_05]: And remember, it seems starts with him saying you should pay attention to the game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: The end of the scene he hasn't paid attention to.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was a smooth scene for me for Beshear, for Siddik, for Alexander Siddik.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought he did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: God, I thought he did a smooth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great job in this scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, just all that dialogue while it's trying to be paying attention to the match.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be a little dicey, but he pulled it off quite well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was great.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we go to Cisco's quarters next.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dinner is being cooked.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice tight shot of Cisco chopping some yams or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what he was chopping there, but he's cooking cooking up a delicious meal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cassidy arrives.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says she smelled it down the hall smells delicious and Jake shows up and Jake asked if they know any details about a caverion tiger bat for a story that he's writing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cisco uses Jake's question to kind of fish with Cassidy here and he's like doesn't he say something like wait don't you do a regular cargo run at the neighboring system over there where the where these bats are maybe so he's fishing with Cassidy in the scene and she says no and he keeps fishing keeps digging and she says well if you're so interested
[SPEAKER_00]: and he drops it then, and they go eat.
[SPEAKER_05]: One of the wonderful things about your performance, Penny, is that you answer, it never looks like you're lying.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's just facts, it's just your surprise, and you're just saying that it never looks like you're trying to cover your butt.
[SPEAKER_05]: it's it's really quite wonderful that which makes of course harder for for Cisco to know what to believe because it it just seems genuine as a loosely genuine.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you know, Armand, I think that during that time, I had always seen Star Trek as something.
[SPEAKER_04]: other than what I ended up really being.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I did think it was a wonderful opportunity to dot your eyes, cross your teeth, and to have this Shakespearean experience.
[SPEAKER_04]: that was natural.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, I don't know if I like really convoluted that, but it makes sense where it has a heightened sense of reality, but it must be natural.
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_04]: That when you start tipping or delivering what's expected, that you truly ruin the arc.
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I made an effort while doing deep space was to make it very honest because a lot of people go, oh, you're doing that show, don't they do this this is unbelievable and it was the most credulous piece of work.
[SPEAKER_04]: that I've ever encountered.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so thank you for seeing that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think the audience and the fans take notice of that, because I think that was the only way to make their relationship real.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is indeed, if you're not genuine, then we don't believe the relationship and you are very genuine.
[SPEAKER_05]: And as I said before, it also makes it harder for Cisco to, he is fishing and there's no fish.
[SPEAKER_05]: There's nothing, nothing, it's very, very clear.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's because you're just being so incredibly what seems to be honest and genuine and forthright and So you can't find anything some only confused is him.
[SPEAKER_04]: There would be no conflict.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right There would be no conflict and there's no reason to even have the scene So yeah conflict has to always be there and the conflict here is in his mind
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right, in his room.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, great.
[SPEAKER_04]: The more you crave for him, the better the payoff is going to be later.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, on that note, I'm very curious, Penny.
[SPEAKER_01]: So were you playing Cassidy in this particular scene as being aware that that Ben is kind of fishing and may be possibly on your tail, on your trail, or were you playing this more like no oblivious to where he was coming from?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just curious.
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, I can actually answer that because I remember I remember it's because there is a conflict I remember I'm making a choice that when I'm with Ben it is about our relationship so whatever is happening will serve the relationship and so that's all I was I was only about building relationship for the scene and as an actor
[SPEAKER_04]: Who's gonna have further employment?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yes, yes, now we're getting to the market.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's very real.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always thought the stronger the Cisco Cassidy relationship, the longer it will last.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I'm serving a community who hasn't had this ever.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I felt I had a duty.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, that's the honest truth.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Really?
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we go to the turbo lift next.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically garrisons.
[SPEAKER_00]: The all are in the turbo lift with some other passengers.
[SPEAKER_00]: They get off leaving them alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very tense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Garrick asks if she's going to hurt him.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says no.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he says,
[SPEAKER_00]: she has nothing to fear from him either, and he exits, seems genuine, but then her look at the very end is a little loaded, which made me, you know, it was nicely played scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, like your story, Penny, I don't think that these actors were tipping their hand of where this story is going to go, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's this whole episode, one thing I loved about this whole episode is it's in the writing, but mostly in the performances,
[SPEAKER_00]: people are playing subtext.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're really playing subtext and secrets really well and it sustains the whole episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: It is an episode of secrets.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just call it.
[SPEAKER_04]: It truly is.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when you're holding secrets, you do less because yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I mean, the real life you're holding a secret.
[SPEAKER_04]: You got to learn how to shut up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Or you will tip to the other person, I'm not, or I go something I'm not, I'm not telling you about, but yeah, right, it's, it's a lot of secrets going on in this episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: What I'd like to what Jim did, Jim Conway, was he isolated, isolated the characters in the elevator so that they were separate.
[SPEAKER_05]: And, and you could feel that they were, they were separate and they were trying to bridge some sort of gap or find out something.
[SPEAKER_05]: I like that there wasn't a two-shot per se that it was, it was two individual, meaning really in a small space.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, Jim Conway.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jim did a great job in this episode.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love working my channel.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have any thoughts about Jim when you were there with him, Penny?
[SPEAKER_01]: Just general thoughts about Jim as a director?
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, some directors, they are just hands on in the, you know, they, you have a vision and you, and you know, you, you want it done this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so you kind of steer the actor that way.
[SPEAKER_04]: He was generous.
[SPEAKER_04]: In that we're still telling the story with his, you know, with his eye, if he allows you to fill in all those gaps, you know, he doesn't have to hold your hand, or at least that was with us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he loves actors.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jim is retired and lives near me.
[SPEAKER_00]: We play golf quite often.
[SPEAKER_00]: And his wife was an actress, Becky, and he loves actors.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, he married an actress.
[SPEAKER_00]: He knows what actors go through.
[SPEAKER_00]: As much as he's a storyteller and a producer and writer, all those things, he loves the special thing that actors do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he wants to give them space.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I think that's, you know, with the definition.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we go to the cargo bay next, Odo's doing a health inspection of Cassidy ship with finger quotes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, they've decided that there is a, what did they call it, a Temeculian Temeculian virus?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: and uh... there's an outbreak on bay jor so they're scanning all the ships and cargo before they leave the system they if to do this inspection it's going to take six hours cassey's not happy about this she's going to miss her her rendezvous to deliver her cargos so she goes and calls ben
[SPEAKER_00]: and asks if he can help her, and then Cisco says, standby, hang on one second, puts her on hold, and he turns and editing turns in the room, standing on camera, but around his desk.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco says to, can we do this inspection quicker?
[SPEAKER_00]: Six hours is going to mess up Cassidy's delivery.
[SPEAKER_00]: Eddington says, no, it's going to take that long to look for any, any of the stuff that they would need to know.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Cisco gets back on and he tells Cassie, sure you're clear to leave, go ahead, go ahead, take your stuff and go.
[SPEAKER_04]: So that's the sincerity of that particular scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the writers, now that I must tell you was all on the page.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when Cassidy asks, she is really concerned about not being able to deliver.
[SPEAKER_04]: But she is calling her man.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have to tell you that is what I got.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, you're doing this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, I got something for you and she doesn't like, you know, do it in a nasty way she just matter faculty and he pops up on that screen and it's like, okay, I'm man is right there and I'm going to ask him in front of you But that's a tough stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a tough spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a tough spot.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, it handles it though
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because you're kind of like going to the supervisor who happens to be your boyfriend at the same time, but my little nitpick on this scene is when you walk over to that monitor, you literally press it, you press three buttons and boom, he pops up on the screen ready to talk to you, it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, now he shouldn't have been doing work or looking down and then like notice, oh, oh, then she called there's no, no, do you guys get where I'm coming from?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, go, you go.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, I had that first impression as well, Garrett.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I thought some more about it and I thought, they know, they know that we're going to call him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so, so he's waiting for that call to come in.
[SPEAKER_05]: There it is.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's like, you've done an audition.
[SPEAKER_05]: You've pretty sure you got it.
[SPEAKER_05]: You're waiting for the phone call to come.
[SPEAKER_05]: The phone rings, you see that it's from your agent.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay, that's the phone call I was waiting for.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that being said, that explains a lot, but still I would have played it, or I would have said, listen, don't let her know that we're expecting that call, look away like you're doing some work, and then look up, you know, instead of just being all ready to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just seemed like it was, you know, he might spill his, you know, his agenda too early, if it's funny.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, would that be an actor's choice then that you, you have the issue with, not the writing,
[SPEAKER_04]: It would have been, uh, uh, I mean, yeah, because the actor could have very easily when he, when she does that and he pops up, he could have been down.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, Cassidy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you know, is that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Tintin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just more of the tech, not the actor, the technology of how they've set it up, because you hit two buttons and it goes right, and it,
[SPEAKER_01]: Turns out immediately on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like there should be some time between where you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Beep, beep, beep, beep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, oh, now she's calling.
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to wait, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me turn on the monitor.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it just was too sudden.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it felt a little, it did feel a little tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a technology thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And do you, do you remember when you filmed this scene or scenes like this, you don't have Avery on a screen?
[SPEAKER_00]: You were looking at a piece of tape on a console, probably.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, I've been looking at pieces of tape for 40.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's just a supervisor.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: People know.
[SPEAKER_04]: The shows I've been on.
[SPEAKER_04]: Sometimes the actors are like never that especially 24.
[SPEAKER_04]: No one was ever there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's all.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: The actors are either generous or not so generous.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, every was generous, every was in the room.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so he was there for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I get to hear his voice or whatever, but you don't get that all the time because the actors if they're not in that scene physically, they don't want to come to work, but they know they want to go home.
[SPEAKER_05]: Or they're not called.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, or they're in makeup doing something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they're not called a producers don't want to pay the actor for being there if they're not in the scene But yet most of the time you're looking at a cross on a on a lens or something like that now there's something I do want to say something about this the way again Jim shot this scene Which I will will pay off later on in this scene when he's talking to you, Penny
[SPEAKER_05]: We see him talking to the monitor, but we see him physically in his chair talking to the monitor.
[SPEAKER_05]: It isn't just his face on the screen.
[SPEAKER_05]: We get the sense of where he is while he's talking to you.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wanted him to do that in a different place as well, and I'll talk about that much later on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and just to clarify for people listening when I said a piece you're a penny was looking at a piece of tape a lot of times when the other actor is not there the camera system will take some Some tape like they'd kind of tape that they put marks down on the floor and colored tape colored tape.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they have all the colors of the rainbow and they'll put a piece of tape like like arm and said usually an axe or a cross
[SPEAKER_00]: for an eyeline and they'll put that somewhere off camera so that's what you're looking at.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Penny was probably looking at a piece of colored tape and not at any playback or video or anything like that.
[SPEAKER_05]: But she did have a baby in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she had a baby in the room.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's which is unusual, which is unusual.
[SPEAKER_05]: Which is unusual.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's yeah, that's great.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes that tape is just on the mat box itself on the camera, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right next to the lens.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes you're looking right by the lens.
[SPEAKER_04]: And sometimes you have someone reading the lines who should never in their life proclaim to be an actor.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh my gosh, they give you absolutely nothing.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so everything that comes out of you is imagined.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's the most monotone delivery.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they're talking like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you're kind of have to act with this type of monotone delivery.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it gets, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, when Cisco ends the call, he turns to Eddington and says, tell Wurf, there's a change of plans.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're going to follow, just follow and observe if she does go to the badlands to meet the monkey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't do anything, just observe only for now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, you know, Cisco,
[SPEAKER_00]: is maybe starting to get a little more suspicions or he's, you know, taking next steps, I guess.
[SPEAKER_00]: We cut to the bridge of the defiant and they're cloaked, so Cassidy eights can't find them, can't see them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she does change course.
[SPEAKER_00]: She heads toward the Badlands and O'Brien,
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a little bit later, the Zocia goes into a plasma storm, so Cassidy's ship heads into the badlands.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's exactly where the Machia are.
[SPEAKER_00]: A Brian has some sympathy we learned in this scene, though, for the Machia, that they're just defending what they believe in.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a Brian, great performance by column here, you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, um, I was sold on his argument quite a bit.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He asked Eddington how he feels about the monkey and Eddington such a great performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, I just follow orders.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have any personal feelings.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've got three viewpoints.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got Switzerland, which is Eddington.
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got one angle, which is going to be a Brian, and then Warf.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the reason why we buy O'Brien's argument for the Machi is because Warf's argument is so extreme.
[SPEAKER_01]: They should be hunted down and destroyed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like, oh, OK, so he's all about just, let's kill them all, all the Machi.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's, but then again, even if he wasn't saying that,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: His argument really hit home on a deep level.
[SPEAKER_04]: And when we were shooting it, I don't remember feeling anything at all.
[SPEAKER_04]: So it's it's amazing how something like a you know a wonderful piece.
[SPEAKER_04]: deep space nine.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's it's it's for a lifetime.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can watch these episodes over and over and over.
[SPEAKER_04]: And still relate to them.
[SPEAKER_04]: This particular scene and the Orion character with the argument was
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I went to bed on that last night.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Haunting.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: It is about larger than life episodes, but dealing with humanity.
[SPEAKER_05]: How do individuals deal with a larger than life situation?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're having this argument or this discussion about the Machie and the morality of it all when they spot a Machie Raider shows up by Cassidy's ship.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: She beings over some cargo.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is not looking good for you, Penny.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and if I make some good of but in here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: What I love about this moment is every one of us does not want to see this.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: We do not want to see that Cassidy Yates is betraying.
[SPEAKER_05]: Um, it's just goes trust.
[SPEAKER_00]: We just go trust mostly that because that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: At this point, like I'm,
[SPEAKER_00]: and bivalin about the monkey to be honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've heard arguments on both sides in this story so far that I don't know if I would pick a side and say, oh, Cassidy shouldn't be doing this because they're the bad guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not why it breaks my heart.
[SPEAKER_00]: It breaks my heart because of Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_05]: And because she has told us, no, I'm not doing any of this.
[SPEAKER_05]: And she has, she has been
[SPEAKER_05]: and and it breaks our heart to realize here relatively early in the episode around a little before midway that that she has been lying to him and lying to us because your performance is so believable you've been lying to us as well to be honest exactly and so
[SPEAKER_05]: It's mind blowing.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's mind blowing to go, oh my God, she is a trader or or or helping the terrorists.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, when I got this script, Grayland reads my scripts before I read them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so he already knew what was going on.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I read the script and this scene, he says, Oh, you might not be asked back.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, that's what I would have thought too.
[SPEAKER_05]: If I was reading the script, I would have gone right there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, exactly.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is the end of me.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: If I did this reason behind that was exactly what you just said, Armin.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's because he said, I said, well, what makes you think that?
[SPEAKER_04]: He said, well, you don't finally get to
[SPEAKER_04]: Black folk, auto show together, and you fall in love with them.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you find out she is lying to this man, a black man, you're gone.
[SPEAKER_04]: People don't want that, and I was like, oh, so again, that informed me, going back to before that, I'm going to focus on the relationship in this episode, but you're right on there, Armin.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's the lying to Cisco.
[SPEAKER_04]: that breaks your heart.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's it breaks your heart.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's you.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I know how much of a fan grail in his of Star Trek.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like when he was reading that script, when he turned to you to say, this might be the last time you'll be on this show.
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine one tear going down the cheek, Lord.
[SPEAKER_01]: Baby, one more, this is probably it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry, too, because I loved her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just imagine I was really...
[SPEAKER_04]: that too.
[SPEAKER_04]: What I'm telling me because he's a black man and to and married, you know, so if you lose trust, lying is a deal breaker.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know how you belt back from a lie other than to tell the truth and really hold your reference of whatever.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if I didn't have to him, I'd be gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Next up, we're in Garrick's shop, and Zia has come in for a quick visit, which Garrick again, he still doesn't know why, you know, what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's trying to piece this together, and she's saying, oh, your shop is so nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do good work, and then Garrick just cuts the chase, is there something I can do for you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And she says she has a Hall of Sweet program from Quark.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a reproduction of a Kardashian sauna just like the ones they have back on the home planet and she was wondering if Gerek might want to join her in this holiday program, which Gerek is very surprised he's like, oh, oh, okay, he's still trying to piece it together and so she sets a time and he says great, I'll see you there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a nice scene, but again, he still doesn't know what her motive is though at this point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, very dangerous connection.
[SPEAKER_05]: So going back, because of that recap, I began to think as you were talking here, perhaps in the scene in the in the racket ball, a scene, maybe it should have been shot
[SPEAKER_05]: That she's looking at him and he's going, why is she looking at me?
[SPEAKER_05]: Because we both thought it was flirtation.
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe it's not flirtation.
[SPEAKER_05]: Maybe she's looking at him.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's looking at him.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he's going, why is she looking at me?
[SPEAKER_05]: Why?
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what I got.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I would have liked to see a little bit more emphasis that way now that I think about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: That it was her looking at him rather than them the other way around.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: That would be more sense.
[SPEAKER_04]: But are you saying the ambiguity about, um, yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's exactly what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm saying that why is that woman looking at me?
[SPEAKER_05]: What why?
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, especially when you know the the history that that she has with him and he has with her.
[SPEAKER_05]: or with her father anyway.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so why, why is she looking at me?
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's why he can't take his eyes off her because he catches her continually looking back towards him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but the way they set it up was that he started the looking and staring at her, which isn't really, it's confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's confusing.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other way makes more sense, and especially because he's always looking at threats against his life to begin with,
[SPEAKER_05]: which makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so when she walks into the room, he should, he's what is this about, but it was, but it was both that and the sense of flirtation, that both of those.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think we could have lost some of the flirtation and had more of the suspicion.
[SPEAKER_05]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
[SPEAKER_05]: Agreed.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, um, we're in Cisco's quarters now.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jake comes in and says good morning to dad and Jake orders erected you know extra sweet macapu bread.
[SPEAKER_01]: No crust.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now Cisco's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, where's the juice and oatmeal?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, Jake says, Cassidy, introduce me to this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's great.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, this Makapu bread, when you dip it in the rock digino, it makes the, it foams up, this is peppermint sort of taste, and he wants his dad to try it, and guess what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Dad's not in the mood, and Jake picks up on this.
[SPEAKER_01]: He knows something's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he kind of messes with him a little bit before, is this the point where he's messing with him a little bit about, you know, oh, you didn't need to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and then of course, Jake gets on Ben's nerves and he's like, okay, not when Jake has something happening between you and Cassidy and Cisco says not exactly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says if you want to talk but he doesn't want to talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the end of the scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you can see that there's a lot of conflict in subtext, subtext, subtext, subtext, tons of subtext, and I did like, I did like when Jake takes the bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: He puts it in the coffee and it starts foaming like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Alca Seltzer something and then he picked it up and I thought, oh, don't drink that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't drink whatever they use to make it foam up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, don't drink it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you're saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: They probably literally put Alca Seltzer on the bottom of the bread or something to make that foamy thing usually on set of facts is the department that does that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they don't usually use things that are edible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Edible.
[SPEAKER_04]: You usually ask, can I eat this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: But how long has this been sitting like that?
[SPEAKER_04]: That scene was not full of conflict for me.
[SPEAKER_04]: That scene was full of pain.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the reason I'm saying that is because it spoke to me
[SPEAKER_04]: single parents who have a relationship ultimately and then they invite the kid in on that.
[SPEAKER_04]: So no longer is just about you and this other person.
[SPEAKER_04]: You have involved your kid in a relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so as we're watching this episode and we've learned prior to this that she lied to Cisco,
[SPEAKER_04]: Cassidy lied to Cisco.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now you see Jake still building her up because he really likes her and he wants this to work because he actually is the one who introduced them in the first place.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's painful to know that not just Cisco, but Jake is going to be let down too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well he grabs his hand, he grabs Jake's hand, he holds his hand till the end of the scene when he says, some things change, people change.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that was a really powerful moment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Very powerful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's a, you know, preparing that is just going to be the two of us.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, just you and me.
[SPEAKER_05]: And with all due respect to the Cassidy Yates and Cisco relationship, for me as a viewer of this show, the more, and I want to say important, they're both important.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, I agree with you more, but the more important relationship is the father and son relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: We're invested in that.
[SPEAKER_05]: We've been invested in that from the pile from the first episode.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And so he's protecting his son.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's also delicious to me that when we started the show, Jake's character could not have had that sort of conversation with his father because he was a young boy.
[SPEAKER_05]: And now he's basically a grown man or almost a grown man and quite capable of talking
[SPEAKER_05]: and talking about their relationship between his father and Cassidy Hates and his relationship with Cassidy Hates.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a mark of the time for me that four years have gone by and so much has happened to Jake.
[SPEAKER_04]: You talked about morality and that there's always a moral, you know, in stories and that when there's a lesson too of how soon
[SPEAKER_04]: is too soon to bring someone into a relationship, to introduce to your child.
[SPEAKER_04]: I just go there because as a woman and as an actor, that was real important to me, that you come in as an addition, you don't come in as,
[SPEAKER_04]: destructive figure you build on what's already there you don't destroy what's there nor do you interfere with what's there and so the decisions that she's making in this episode are crucial not just for her relationship with her man but this this family that she could possibly be destroying right now so that's very painful like I said yeah we'll
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we go to the Wardroom next.
[SPEAKER_00]: The gang is there, Eddington's filling in Cisco.
[SPEAKER_00]: They scan the cargo that was beam to board.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was probably food or medicine, they think.
[SPEAKER_00]: They show the route that she took out of the badlands and resumed its course back to its flight plan that it had before.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco just listens, he's very quiet, and he asks, where Zoja is now, and Worf says, she's on her way back to the station, she should have arrived soon, and then Cisco dismisses them, and they're all leaving, DAX stops to say something, and Cisco doesn't even let her speak.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, dismiss, told, man, I don't want to talk to anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: because he knows he's going to have to go confront.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you said that, yeah, earlier, you said that Cisco was listening to everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is listening to Eddington, but not Dax, because Dax is literally saying that one thing, and she's like Dax says, well, at least we're not dealing with weapons.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like she's only providing, and he cuts her off.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, where's his name?
[SPEAKER_00]: He does he cuts her off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when she tries to say something else while leaving the room, he doesn't even, like you said, he doesn't let her at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and this is his best friend, Dax, from, from prior Dax, is the best friend that Cisco has, is known Cisco the longest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as soon as he knows that, that they caught her, they have evidence now that she literally met the Marquis, she's transported, supplies to them, she's lied to him.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it an airison?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is embarrassment also a part of it for him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Probably, you know, just sort of...
[SPEAKER_04]: I think he's broken at this point, I think the brokenness and as Captain, you can appear to be broken in any way.
[SPEAKER_04]: You could be here though.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm not a broken and for a man of his statue and integrity.
[SPEAKER_04]: this is something he needs to do himself.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's very important.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I think that at this point he doesn't want to be influenced in any way on this decision that is is truly personal for him.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's, and it's very odd in his leadership capacity for the federation, for the space nine, that he has to make the right choice, but he must do it himself, he's gathered all this information.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, and I think that hands up, which is what attend the moment that was when she's slightly behind him and she doesn't even push it, because she knows too.
[SPEAKER_04]: He has all that he needs, all the information, he's got to make it and he has to do it himself.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if I may just talking historically, if we remember originally before the show was cast, Dax was supposed to be a mentor to a very young Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: Every Brooks was not the archetype that they originally thought should be Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: It should be someone actually more like Sid, who was a young sort of beginning officer, who needs a guide, a mentor to help him.
[SPEAKER_05]: So here it's Harkens back to that for me, she is about to give him comfort or advice, one of the other maybe both.
[SPEAKER_05]: She wants to comfort him.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's why she says, well, it was only medicine.
[SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't weapons.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's trying to comfort him by softening the blow a little.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then when she turns back to offer some advice, here is where the writers go, we don't have sedig playing Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: We have a very Brooks playing Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: He is not the, this is what Penny said.
[SPEAKER_05]: that he is not the man to who needs to be mentored.
[SPEAKER_05]: He knows what he has to do.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a hard decision.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a great one alone.
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm just, I can do this.
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't need a mentor.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And I think that moment was where Dax was going to say something.
[SPEAKER_05]: And he says I don't need this for all the reasons that Penny just said.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a great point.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, Cisco goes back to his quarters.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's waiting, the doorbell rings, Cassidy returns.
[SPEAKER_00]: Knowing what he's just heard, he decides he wants to see if she's going to tell him the truth, so he fishes again a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: He covers pretty well how broken and heartbroken he is, but not perfectly.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can start to see the cracks in what he's feeling personally.
[SPEAKER_00]: He asks about the rendezvous, did she get the medicine to them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Cassie says yes,
[SPEAKER_00]: And he asked where she met them, and he says the crayon system, she says, oh, yeah, why?
[SPEAKER_00]: He just said, he says, uh, it just seems odd that they would travel that far just for some medical supplies.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's kind of showing his hand a little bit here to her and she's not, she's not stepping up and being honest.
[SPEAKER_00]: She continues to lie well, though, the crayons really needed them.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got, she makes up a story.
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got some viral infection and one of their colonies.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she's just digging yourself deeper.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, I promise you can inspect the cargo ahead of time next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco just says, that'll make it a very happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when Jake comes back.
[SPEAKER_00]: Jake's like, I've got a holiday for the Yankees.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was it?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the 78, no, the 61 Yankees and the 78 Red Sox, which when he said that, I was like, oh, I would love to have a program where I could see two of my favorite teams play a virtual game.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, that'd be amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, Cassidy wants to go.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says she's about at the hot dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: This goes, says, no, I got to get back to ops.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is you know Cisco passing up a game like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm it's got to be a big deal Yeah, but Penning you broke as hard you just keep digging deeper.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know I need to try it so hard to keep giving her an out Yes, you did but to bring Jake into the scene was to show family
[SPEAKER_04]: And to really show up is that at state, like we spoke before, you first you have Cassidy and Cisco doing the thing, then you have Jake and his dad and you start thinking, these are relationships.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't want to see destroyed and then if you thought it and wasn't sure you were sure at this scene, we're talking about the destruction of family.
[SPEAKER_04]: People who love together and trust together,
[SPEAKER_04]: are sitting on a lie, a keg that's going to just destroy them all, though.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: He tried to ever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Subtext, a lot of subtext in this thing for both of you guys.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the audience has to be sitting there as I was sitting there saying, okay, so what happens now?
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, obviously she's been lying.
[SPEAKER_05]: But this is, this is their relationship.
[SPEAKER_05]: This is really important.
[SPEAKER_05]: what happens now?
[SPEAKER_05]: I was intrigued with the episode before this, but now I'm really intrigued because now I go, oh my God, what are they going?
[SPEAKER_05]: What is he going to do next?
[SPEAKER_05]: How does he solve the problem or deal with the problem?
[SPEAKER_05]: I really got my expectations up watching because of this scene and what is led to?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's been a gradual process of peeling back the layers of Cassidy 8's and her story
[SPEAKER_05]: The nitty-gritty and what does Cisco do about it?
[SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'll tell you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't tell you, you are, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: Tell us.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the captain's office, Odo's there, Cisco's there, Edinson's there, they're discussing Cassidy's next run.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where they're going to do something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Odo and Edinson think they could do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, I'm, excuse me, before you just start in, right?
[SPEAKER_05]: It's like his Odo there.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, all right happy for Renee to get the work, but yeah, why is he there residuals I mean, he's already has the camera because I'm going to kiddo is the We all understand that, but he's had his residuals fine, so he didn't do it this way
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, they're there, Odo and Eddington both think they should seize both vessels when they meet the next time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cisco agrees.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then Eddington says, can I talk to you?
[SPEAKER_00]: I love it lately.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, I want to talk alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells us go that the CFI replicators arrive tomorrow on to the station and he thinks he should stay for when they arrive.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are the ones that are going to go to the Cardassian.
[SPEAKER_00]: That first scene he talked about the super secret CFI replicators.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, I think Eddington says, I think I should stay here and be responsible for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's super secret important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Also, I don't want responsibility if there's a fight for Cassidy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't like, you know, that's your person.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she might get caught in a crossfire and he doesn't want responsibility.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco agrees, he says, I'll take command of the mission.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I made a note to myself, well, that doesn't sound very smart.
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like Cisco's going to be the one to go to battle with Cassidy out there, potentially.
[SPEAKER_01]: But Robby before he says the, you know, Cassidy might be caught up in the crossfire.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does say Cisco does say Lieutenant Reese, aka Asian Ken, can handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the one statement that kind of, which is the next thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I just want to throw that in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's very important.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not only handsome, but he's
[SPEAKER_01]: Capitant, he's very capable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, all right, Cisco's going to take command.
[SPEAKER_00]: We go to cargo bay, Cassie's about to leave.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cisco arrives, and he says, he says to Cassie, hold on.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's just go to riser.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's run away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Forget about this delivery, and we'll just go in a vacator, romantic trip to riser.
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, what are you crazy?
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's very sad in the scene and she says she wishes that she could take him up on the song for her, but she just can't, she has to make this delivery.
[SPEAKER_00]: and another scene with very strong subtext.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_01]: This scene was all, like, for before, before when you guys were saying subtext, I was, oh yeah, they're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is subtext, but this scene, everyone can see this is subtext.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is such a sad scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel so bad for Cisco.
[SPEAKER_01]: The entire time he's just trying to save it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's just like, please, please, just come with me and everything will be fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll be great.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'll, everything will be better.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll forget everything that you've done is kind of what he's saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me, just don't do this and I wanted to cry during this scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so sad.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_05]: All right.
[SPEAKER_05]: If I may, I also feel bad for Cassidy Yates because she knows what she's doing and how you do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, Cisco is really trying to be the savior, like you said.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: To see him do that,
[SPEAKER_04]: It was just, it was heartbreaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was painful and it was, but when we find out that it's medicine, somehow you know that Cassidy has, she has to do it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You can't blame someone from wanting to do that.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is someone who truly loves humanity.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, she's a crusade.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is, she's an, right there, I get Cisco being an amazing partner because he just wants to be that man and save her, save us together.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you see Cassidy in her strength here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though this isn't that scene, you see her in her strength where she just can't give up.
[SPEAKER_04]: She can't give up and she's not going to allow him
[SPEAKER_04]: to give up something to the what she's doing she's doing on her own.
[SPEAKER_04]: So yeah, this was a hard breaker that one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we go to the bridge of the defined next.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is cloaked again following Cassidy ship, same deal, same rendezvous spot.
[SPEAKER_00]: But this time the Machia pair to be late and they
[SPEAKER_00]: We go back to Garrick Shop and Quark is having a fitting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Quark's getting a beautiful new outfit there, Armin.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a couple quams with the the lengths that you discuss in the theater, but yeah, meters off the meter.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, can the pants be?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, anyway, quarking, garrac are bickering over the tailoring work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kira arrives slams, garrac against the wall says, stay away from Zeal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't you hurt her?
[SPEAKER_00]: She's my friend, and leave her alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Kira leaves.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, he can, Gary goes back to continue the tailoring with cork, and that's when you say the pants are a meter too long.
[SPEAKER_00]: A meter, that's like a yard.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I actually should have played it a little different.
[SPEAKER_05]: I can confess that I didn't at that time know how long a meter was.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, really?
[SPEAKER_05]: So if I had known what I know now, I would have played it slightly different.
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody should have said something like, either rewrite that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, six a few centimeters too long or something or yeah, surprise Jim didn't catch it.
[SPEAKER_01]: my other nitpick was just your first line cork when used when cork armen when when cork says can't you do something about these lapels and I'm looking is and I'm looking saying that looks beautiful already as is like Bob Blackman did too good of a job on that that that got that top that garment because I didn't look beautiful it was amazing so that's a good outfit.
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope you kept it.
[SPEAKER_00]: no, of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, not counted in life.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I looked at character.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, the character get, yeah, he did.
[SPEAKER_05]: He wears it in other shows.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: But blackman once told me that his favorite character to design for was quite because of what you just said because of the materials and the colors and the colors.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: 100%.
[SPEAKER_00]: It reminds me of like a Shakespearean costume, almost arm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, you could see something that, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, a fancy, you know, in a historical play or something and warm and warm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm going to make up and warm.
[SPEAKER_04]: I thought you were always the Shakespearean core gesture.
[SPEAKER_04]: And both, and it was in part due to these colorful vibrant costumes that you have, and you should get one to our Halloween person.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, I should.
[SPEAKER_05]: Penny, which you don't know which the others do know.
[SPEAKER_05]: I never kept nor was I allowed to, but I never kept anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you have one of your heads do you have a like a make I have a good.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have it, but no garbant you have zero quark No garments.
[SPEAKER_05]: No, no part of the set None of the others came in came in with Jack Hammers and screw drivers.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have all those last masks You do you oh my god My name we were filming it was the last day.
[SPEAKER_04]: No, it was the last day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't tell us why though We haven't seen any of these in episode.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, don't tell us why
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do, I do have one hand.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: See now, Armin, if you and I had learned the art of flirting with like Robby did with the wardrobe department and getting all the extra pieces of wardrobe like he did.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I flirt with?
[SPEAKER_01]: You would Jamie.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you just told the wardrobe people like, well, if my flirt with anybody, I just sort of, you charmed them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You charmed them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you charmed them.
[SPEAKER_01]: You didn't alert.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, my apologies.
[SPEAKER_01]: Your charm was so good that you were able to make off with multiple.
[SPEAKER_05]: wardrobe pieces yeah care what would I do with any of those boxes no what do I do they hang in a closet no all you auction you auction them off for charity penny who's the pharyngey here I auctioned off my bras
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you got to, you got to keep all your Star Trek bras.
[SPEAKER_01]: You cut, you kept all of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you're saying?
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe there's a thing in the best bras effort, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I know they were great.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know they let you have them, though.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my goodness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I had like four of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_04]: I auctioned, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: Somebody was having a charity or something.
[SPEAKER_04]: I auctioned them off.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, they have Cassie Yates bras.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I should have, I've got like a dozen of Tom Paris's underpants.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I could just, no, that he's just saying that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to say underpants.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's funny.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tom Paris boxer shorts.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so Garrett comes back after him, Kira threatens him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He thinks that because Kira is worried, he might have heard, see, all that, that he's safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: That means that I'm safe.
[SPEAKER_00]: and that Ziaul isn't trying to hurt me, and Quark says, well, maybe that's reverse psychology, maybe she's doing that, so now, the end of the scene, Gareth's like, oh, he's so confused.
[SPEAKER_05]: If I may, what I liked about the scene was it's one of the rare times that I think Quark actually made more sense than Gareth.
[SPEAKER_05]: So that doesn't happen very often and I think actually quarks argument and he just slaps it on well It may be too much over thinking and that every now and then they would throw a scene and in my way where the two macibales
[SPEAKER_05]: would actually hash out a chess move between the two of them.
[SPEAKER_05]: And most of the time, Gary won that match.
[SPEAKER_05]: But in this case, I think actually Quark has the upper hand in this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Gary's office game.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's terrified for some reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's just terrified of the all here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, Penny, there's this one scene where Arman is in corks bar and corks says who knows more about relationships than me and then But she's here off to the side of go everybody like I just said it very under his breath
[SPEAKER_01]: Who knows more than me, everybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so funny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
[SPEAKER_05]: So, and now I have to ask a question.
[SPEAKER_05]: I know my, I know course relationship with Kira, which was not a good one.
[SPEAKER_05]: Does this indicate the scene that the Kira's relationship with Kira isn't the best either?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know that I had any real sense of them having a good or bad or any kind of relationship, really, other than the Bajoran Cardassian issues, right, that that would have obviously been.
[SPEAKER_00]: But there hasn't been a lot of, you know, screen time devoted to anything there that I can recall.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I don't.
[SPEAKER_04]: That'll be that'll be in the movie that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, the DS9 movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, there you go.
[SPEAKER_05]: That comes out right after the voyage or movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll be waiting a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, Robbie, continue.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we go to the bridge next.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're back in the defiant bridge.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're still waiting.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, to think something is fishy because they would just leave if the Machi weren't here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So why are they sticking around?
[SPEAKER_00]: Worf says, well, maybe it's not the cargo on her ship that they want.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's when Otis says, wait a minute, maybe it's Cisco.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe that's what they wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: They wanted to bait him into following Cassidy and trap him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco decides to beam over to Cassidy's ship to find out.
[SPEAKER_00]: We cut over to the Zocher Bridge.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cassidy is in the middle of sending a coded message when the defiant declokes Cisco in the team beam on.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he confronts Cassidy right there.
[SPEAKER_00]: He thinks that he was lured away for a mock-y attack on the station as what he thinks.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she admits that she was meeting a mock-y ship, but she says, I don't know anything about an attack.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm waiting for this mock-y ship and Cisco thinks something, somebody else was manipulating all of this.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says building to this whole set up.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says they needed to draw me away from the station.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why if they aren't planning an attack, what other reason could there be?
[SPEAKER_00]: What could be happening?
[SPEAKER_00]: Happening on the station.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he takes a moment and then he realizes, oh, it's not here that the action, whatever's happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: they go they want to get me away from the station so he realizes there at the very end yeah and uh... there's a moment here and up
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure the prop department just gave Avery the prop and it really disturbs me.
[SPEAKER_05]: When he beams in, I understand why the other people, there's Odo and he and two security guards.
[SPEAKER_05]: And the two security guards have phasers out and they're holding a bay that you're
[SPEAKER_04]: It really, oh, you know what, when I saw, uh, watch it again, um, and it reminded me, I was thinking, he knows this care, he knows Cassidy and he knows that she's not going to be armed and even if,
[SPEAKER_04]: His guys were armed.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why is he armed?
[SPEAKER_05]: You thought that was nice.
[SPEAKER_05]: He pointed at you.
[SPEAKER_05]: He's not, he's not like this, but it's there and it's aimed at you.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's at his waist or sort of there about, and it's aimed at you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right on his thigh.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_04]: Right on the side there.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then I watched, I watched when it was put away because it did bother me.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it reminded me of when we were shooting at where I was thinking,
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I'm sure the prop department just said, here, this is your pistol and he had in his hand and he kept it in his waist, but it just went this wrong for him to have a pistol.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the moment where all of that subtext playing in these other scenes, the dancing around each other, she admits to him, you admit to him, Penny, that, yes, I was meeting a mock-y show.
[SPEAKER_04]: She doesn't lie.
[SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't lie here, yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: which makes me think that she wasn't truly lying before she was protecting before.
[SPEAKER_05]: You know, Penny, it's wonderful work you're doing and we all do this, but we all justify our character's actions.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was lying, she was lying, she was lying, she was, she was all to, she, she used all to bit facts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_05]: Great.
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: We'll go back.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll go back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do like a segue.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the last line that Cisco has is what could be happening, the realization, happening on the station, and it flips right to the station in the ward room.
[SPEAKER_01]: with Eddington giving new orders.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although CFI replicators need to be placed on a Vulcan transport and no one else can know about it, meaning super secret.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, more secrets.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, even Asian Ken says does that include the Bajoran security detachment sir and he says absolutely, they cannot know about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Because Odo's on the ship nowhere near this station.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but another great scene with Agent Ken.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very happy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, total communication silence.
[SPEAKER_00]: He also says, yep.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the team leaves, Kira arrives, and he, uh, so the whole team is out of the room, Kira arrives saying, you wanted to see me, sir.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mr. Eddington and he says, yes, Major, I'm afraid I need to take command of the station.
[SPEAKER_00]: for the next few hours and he turns around shoots or she drops down to the ground and he locks her in basically punches a coat.
[SPEAKER_05]: So this is why Odo has to be on his ship.
[SPEAKER_05]: because it's one thing to take out Kira, which is hard enough, hard enough.
[SPEAKER_05]: But it's harder because he's a shapeshifter, it's harder to take out Odo.
[SPEAKER_05]: And that's why I thought, okay, this is why they put him on this ship.
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh dear, don't you have this problem on the defying.
[SPEAKER_05]: So they don't have the problem of having overcome Odo on the station.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: My nitpick for this scene is when Eddie can says, yes, Major, I'm afraid I need to take command of the station for the next few hours and shoots her.
[SPEAKER_01]: He reaches for his face or pretty early in that dialogue.
[SPEAKER_01]: And does it rule slow, slow, draw and slow aim?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's enough time for the period.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he would have done a million.
[SPEAKER_01]: She would have dodged it or quickly pulled her and shot him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think he took a spring ball.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know how this al-athletics here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Adding to telegraph just move.
[SPEAKER_01]: He should have moved for his phaser after he said the entire line.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then quickly shot her.
[SPEAKER_01]: You see, I'm saying he was telegraphed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's my big.
[SPEAKER_01]: Keras, too good of a warrior, too good of a soldier, to fall for that whole, you know, chestnut.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's my feeling.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you found it too convenient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Too convenient.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was too easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He should have not pulled for the the phaser that quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or that early.
[SPEAKER_04]: But the average ten more minutes to the episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: There you go.
[SPEAKER_00]: What were you going to say, Armand?
[SPEAKER_05]: uh... just a minor pic of of geards nitpick uh... the no one is allowed to carry a weapon on the promenade uh... week we've got we've been told that several times yeah occasionally what when when there's a when there's a threat yes it's like bobby's in the england they're not allowed to carry guns unless there's a threat in there allowed to carry guns
[SPEAKER_01]: So Kira doesn't have one is what you're saying, that's what she has, but she could have done it.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_05]: No one is complaining about that.
[SPEAKER_05]: And it's making it fast.
[SPEAKER_05]: I got you.
[SPEAKER_01]: After Springball.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we, I was my, my nitpick of your nitpick.
[SPEAKER_01]: Was that it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Got that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Back to the bridge.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're heading back to DS9.
[SPEAKER_00]: Otis says Cassidy will run and he wanted to leave a security detail behind.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco says, no, it's our priority to get back to DS9.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they just left Cassidy out there with the monkey.
[SPEAKER_00]: Which is a little hard to accept forgive me.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's a little hard for me to accept that after all of that He just lets her go and it's right for Odo who shouldn't be under to find it all.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's right for it Say, why does he do that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Why does he do that?
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, and he does she just shuts that down and says I don't want to talk about that
[SPEAKER_05]: And that, if I may, shows the humanity of Cisco.
[SPEAKER_05]: that he let his heart abdictate stuff to his brain, even though he might have known better.
[SPEAKER_00]: And was breaking some of those.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's what makes, forgive me, our show just a tiny bit better than most of the others is that our captain had flaws.
[SPEAKER_05]: He was a brilliant commander, and he was, but he's still a human being.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, I like it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I like it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I have to say amen to that, Armin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_03]: Amen.
[UNKNOWN]: Amen.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, we go to the air lock next.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're in an upper pile on that says here, adding his leaving with Vulcan transport that's docked at the upper pile on.
[SPEAKER_00]: He tells Asian Kendall Reese that he's in command now until Cisco returns and Reese's confused.
[SPEAKER_00]: Reese says, hey, I know I'm good-looking, but did I really be running this place?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm second-end command.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm good-looking enough to be second-end command, but I don't know if I'm,
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I mean, Kira is still on the station as far as he knows.
[SPEAKER_05]: She doesn't know that she's been taken out.
[SPEAKER_05]: The second in command is, is Kira?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a secret.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Reese's confused, but he agrees to take command, heads off, and adding to the steps onto the transport, and he takes off his communicator and sticks it to the wall.
[SPEAKER_00]: and seals the doors, those cool rolling gear, giant gear doors, roll, clothes behind him, and then we hear a supplemental log.
[SPEAKER_00]: But he leaves this log, he says the defiant has returned to the station, but it seems Commander Eddington is still one step ahead of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we go inside the ops, the teams all back together, they're looking for the Vulcan ship, nothing in the Eddington calls.
[SPEAKER_00]: What, adding 10th calling them, Cisco switches on a, he goes to his office, he says, put it through to my office, goes inside, turns on the monitor, adding 10 calls to say, just leave us alone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Our fight is with Cardassia.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not with you guys, not with the Federation.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he gives a very strong speech about the Federation and how everyone should want to be part of paradise, how the Federation is even worse than the board.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least the board tells, you know, there's...
[SPEAKER_00]: they're direct and tell you what they're going to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys in the federation play all these games.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's it's very it's a harsh critique of the federation.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the harshest critiques of the federation to this point and also an amazing monologue for acting class.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes, and he was phenomenal.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll go back to what you said Armin early in this podcast about his performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: by far the best performance.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've we've seen him in much smaller stories in moments.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but he takes command of this story in a beautiful way.
[SPEAKER_05]: He does.
[SPEAKER_05]: He does good.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if they're again, it is our writers defying the the hand that feeds them.
[SPEAKER_05]: They're they're saying Star Trek isn't as good as is all you all.
[SPEAKER_05]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_05]: uh... uh... a start fleet is in the way that they're biting the hand that feeds them out trying to say so so uh... it is saying that you know it isn't perfect it isn't paradise it has its problems and and we're going to show you the underbelly of of the federation in startly again god bless i ref for for approaching that and the performance his performance was uh...
[SPEAKER_04]: One of those performances where you don't see it coming, he tells you to run his sincerity and his loyalty and that he's in them definitely in the middle of the road.
[SPEAKER_04]: He's just there to serve and then you go, oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: But he actually makes sense in this monologue.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, he does.
[SPEAKER_04]: There are bad actors and good actors, but there are actors who just hold you like this and either they let you go like this, oh, they just let you go.
[SPEAKER_04]: These are between that.
[SPEAKER_05]: Like, he's great.
[SPEAKER_05]: And if I may, this is something I brought up before and I said, I'll talk about it later.
[SPEAKER_05]: Now is the time to talk about it.
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_05]: They betrayed him, they betrayed Ken, Jim did, I love Jim, but he betrayed Ken.
[SPEAKER_05]: In the sense, here too, I would have liked that shot that we had earlier in the episode where I got to see him outside of the monitor.
[SPEAKER_05]: I would have loved to have seen him and the dressing the monitor is opposed to just doing that wonderful performance and that wonderful speech on on a box of you's great I would have loved to have seen him and it's not like you couldn't do it we saw it earlier Cisco sitting in his office talking to the monitor you could have done it
[SPEAKER_05]: So, I think Jim missed the thing there.
[SPEAKER_05]: He should have let Ken have a full body shot or a close-up or that wasn't on the box.
[SPEAKER_05]: That's my quibble.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ken, can I point here on the director?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a defend Jim.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always tell directors when I'm producing a show to make sure we know the point of view of every scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, whose point of view is this one character or another?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it a particular character in the scene that the scene is about that character's experience?
[SPEAKER_00]: Not that it's not about the other characters, but there's a point of view that the writer takes of an experience in the scene that usually comes from a character or two.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this scene is Cisco's point of view.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why Eddington's on the monitor the whole time.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not, if we cut into Eddington's world, now we're saying, oh, this is maybe a scene about Eddington's point of view.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's more about Cisco hearing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: and how it lands on Cisco as opposed to adding to if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_05]: It does make sense, but I see what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_05]: But with all through this episode, we've gotten different points to hear about the McCree.
[SPEAKER_05]: So I, yes, I understand it's a Cisco episode, no doubt about it.
[SPEAKER_05]: But I, but that was so interesting.
[SPEAKER_05]: So well written and so well performed that I wish it had been photographed so that it had more to it.
[SPEAKER_05]: I agree.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was still effective, Armon.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, no, it was the box, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't believe it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Marshall still did a great job.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if you're sensitive.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you wanted an extra, to have his own, not on the damn box, I think we were on his own.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what you're saying, Armon, is he was so effective, the writing and the performance that you wanted to be in that point of view.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that, you know, not just a thing.
[SPEAKER_05]: I wanted him to have his moment in this.
[SPEAKER_05]: That was his moment.
[SPEAKER_05]: And not to be confined by being on a monitor.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Totally fair so you can actually get that both I mean you both of your actually kind of saying the same thing I mean Robbie you're saying you got to know who's driving the bus.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's what we call it When I'm yeah, yeah, who's driving the bus in this scene and aren't in saying well if it's not the bus driver There's someone on that bus who's really freaking interesting Right And you know they have that too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, after this beautiful performance in speech from Eddington, Cisco says, you know what?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't care about your feelings about the federation.
[SPEAKER_00]: What matters to me is you betrayed me.
[SPEAKER_00]: You betrayed us.
[SPEAKER_00]: You betrayed the federation.
[SPEAKER_00]: You broke your oath.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco says, I will make sure that you spend the rest of your days in a penal colony wondering if replicators
[SPEAKER_05]: Strong finish by said it is a great model of a little a little What's the word antithetical to what he's just free Cassidy hates who's true?
[SPEAKER_05]: Not the same of course not to the same degree at all at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she's betrayed but she's broke.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well She's starfleet no, but she's a starfleet.
[SPEAKER_05]: She's a Federation citizen.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yes, true.
[SPEAKER_05]: True.
[SPEAKER_03]: That's his argument though
[SPEAKER_00]: right that she's the citizen where he says that earlier you can't investigate her without stronger evidence because she's a citizen that now he's now they have the stronger evidence they have the indiscutable evidence and he lets her off the hook.
[SPEAKER_04]: I appreciate this scene even more when I see the scene after because this is the same thing that's going on and it's
[SPEAKER_04]: He compromises, he uses violence, he retorts to violence.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, he shoots care, I mean, he retorts to violence and major manipulation as opposed to, when we get that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, but that was interesting to watch Cisco, how he handles,
[SPEAKER_04]: it in a different way, but that monologue was really, I wasn't really strong.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, that's that.
[SPEAKER_05]: They know who they're writing for.
[SPEAKER_05]: They knew who they were writing for.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, Cisco's response monologue is so strong that I've decided that this is going to be the bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I use when fans ask me to do an impersonation of Cisco.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to memorize this, I'm going to memorize this, I'm going to memorize this and come through it because I, you know, every penny, I don't know if you know this, but I do impersonations of a lot of different acts.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, honey, I, I said, you did an impersonation.
[SPEAKER_04]: Everybody knows.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody knows.
[SPEAKER_04]: So you truly am fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is going to be the one I'm going to use for Cisco because I love it so so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's good.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really good.
[UNKNOWN]: Oh my God.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we're in a hall of sweet.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a Cardassian sauna.
[SPEAKER_00]: See, all is laying there, basking fully clothed by these hot rocks and the door opens inside of this cave spa and garric arrives.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets down to business, he says, why am I here?
[SPEAKER_00]: And she says, well, did you think I was gonna try and kill you to?
[SPEAKER_00]: She admits, yes, it has occurred to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But she says, I'm an outcast on Cardassia.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an outcast on Bayjore.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'd rather learn about Cardassia and enjoy each other's company.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's up to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to kill you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then he reveals that he had a weapon, and he puts his weapon off to the side, and he lays down on his side of the rock, and they start to talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, what should we talk about first?
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're going to, he's going to fill her in on Cardassia, and they're going to be friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: I do like the idea of this song, though, that there's a, you know, you kind of lay down near the hot rocks and it's a good idea.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: I did notice that Andy was sweating, but she wasn't that really?
[SPEAKER_00]: I wonder now Andy can't really sweat because he's got makeup on somehow that there was makeup artist.
[SPEAKER_05]: It did.
[SPEAKER_05]: It there was some moisture.
[SPEAKER_05]: I can't remember where under the eye around the nose or something and you know that was an awfully hot makeup in costume.
[SPEAKER_00]: Or Armin did his makeup artist give him a spritz because it's just to be a sauna.
[SPEAKER_00]: But her makeup artist maybe didn't remember to give a spritz possible possibly.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get to the final.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, she wanted to play a cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she literally.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, final scene, Robbie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, with final scene, we are in the cargo bay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cassidy returns to the station question mark.
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
[SPEAKER_00]: She says she left her crew to protect them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she says that she knows that Cisco left, it's just goes there, by the way, in the car, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says that she knows that he left them there to help them escape, but that she still loves him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she doesn't want to throw that away, and neither does he, and they hug.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a really sweet and sad scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: She says, I'm not going to stand here in a apologize.
[SPEAKER_00]: You had your duty.
[SPEAKER_00]: I had mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she doesn't give up her beliefs, but she's just acknowledging how strong this love is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_00]: She knows she's going to go to prison.
[SPEAKER_00]: They hug and then Cisco calls Luten Rees, and Rees comes in, very handsomely, and brings a couple of security guards with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the constellation prize.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's being arrested by the extremely good-looking, with interviews.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and then she says, I'll be back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And Cisco responds, I'll be here.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it was, it was, it was.
[SPEAKER_04]: That is clearly what that scene was about.
[SPEAKER_04]: The integrity of these two people, yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: Love each other.
[SPEAKER_04]: You just saw them love so deeply, but you truly understood why it is there in the positions that they hold.
[SPEAKER_04]: And there was so much power in that.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I remember,
[SPEAKER_04]: When doing it, I made the decision that she is not going to cry because you can easily um, cry was said.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so the whole scene for me, um, and I think for Cassidy, the characters choice was, I will not let him see me cry.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will say goodbye to him with the most strength that I can possibly muster, but I do want to leave on a note of I love you more than I can express right now, but I'm ready to face my consequences.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've truly a scene of integrity and integrity.
[SPEAKER_04]: Both characters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great choice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great choice, Penny.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really was.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've heard directors and people say before like if the actor cries, the audience won't cry.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was what this moment felt like for both you and Cisco.
[SPEAKER_00]: there was so much subtext and emotion in love of and the hug in that moment allows the audience to cry of, you know, and for these characters to both keep their so strength and integrity in their emotions.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's great.
[SPEAKER_05]: I have an actor to act a question which is, did you know that you had another episode coming up?
[SPEAKER_03]: No, absolutely not.
[SPEAKER_05]: You part of this saying goodbye could have been a real goodbye, a real goodbye.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, but again, going full circle back up when I read it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And Greg and I said, you know, this is it.
[SPEAKER_04]: I said no to myself, not if we play it right.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I never thought this is the last time I'm going to see this actor in this role or play this character.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even if it was going to be in my head because you know when you're ready to finish with a character, you kind of like know it.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then you have to agree with the writers and all about that.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, you did that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But this is why I think I don't think they knew.
[SPEAKER_04]: When we finally said those two, those words, I don't remember that being in the original.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's script that I read.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was like.
[SPEAKER_04]: Something that, you know, you know, you get that on the fly, I think something in there and then I because I think they didn't want to stop that relationship because of what it stood for and it actually it made Cisco complete that you saw all of him all of what he could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: The starfleet integrity, the father, the commander, and also the man, the human, the flawed person.
[SPEAKER_04]: And she had to go prison.
[SPEAKER_04]: She had to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Because of what he stood for.
[SPEAKER_04]: And the scene right before that, when, you know, the same thing, different tactic.
[SPEAKER_04]: He did this
[SPEAKER_04]: the starfleet, you don't play with the federation, sorry, you don't play with the federation.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, and you're going to pay the price.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, it's a spoken volume for that character for Cisco.
[SPEAKER_04]: But in terms of their relationship, I think Cassidy going to prison cemented the relationship.
[SPEAKER_04]: Finally, at the end you saw all this pulling and tearing and whatever, but at the end of the day I think that cemented the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love how this scene harkens back to that very first scene in the bed when Cisco says, I am the peragon of virtue.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's such foreshadowing for what ends up happening in the rest of this episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, great scene.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We came to the end.
[SPEAKER_01]: We recap.
[SPEAKER_01]: We we discussed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much to Penny for joining us and I'll also for arm and for guest hosting with us.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, now we talk about our theme lesson or moral that we get from this episode, starting with Robbie and then, um, are men and then if Penny wants a chime in, she can, uh, as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: The theme or the lesson for me was people are much more complicated than we think.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes we want to put them into their good guy, a bad guy, people are complicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: We all have
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, all of those things with inside of us.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have our, we have the greatest and we have our imperfections in the gray areas.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're much more complicated.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rebecca watched this episode with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, her lesson was do a background check before you date someone.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, of course that's, of course that's, I want to get Rebecca's lesson in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Rebecca for that one.
[SPEAKER_01]: We love it.
[SPEAKER_05]: For me, for both stories, was how do you know whom to trust?
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you know whom to trust?
[SPEAKER_05]: In addition, I wrote down, the old adage is the trust takes time to build seconds to break and forever to repair.
[SPEAKER_05]: And then I wrote, although in this episode, it seems forever means less than a minute.
[SPEAKER_05]: But, but,
[SPEAKER_05]: It is about trust.
[SPEAKER_05]: I think that's what this is about.
[SPEAKER_05]: It's about love, of course, and all the things that we've spoken about with important themes, but trust, I think, is what both stories had in common.
[SPEAKER_05]: How do you learn to trust someone?
[SPEAKER_01]: Nice.
[SPEAKER_01]: Granny, Penny, do you have a lesson from this episode?
[SPEAKER_04]: I have nothing to add.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we've been talking about lessons throughout the podcast,
[SPEAKER_04]: what arm ingest it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I guess mine would be something along the lines of if you don't have integrity as part of your base makeup of who you are then who you are is a house of cards.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to have integrity or what do you have, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our Patreon Paul winner for the theme slash less and slash more of this episode as submitted by Nicole Bertel is the greatest betrayal anyone could experience doesn't come from our enemies but from our closest friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ouch.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh boy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very good.
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_05]: And Nicole is a student of mine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So thank
[SPEAKER_05]: I hope so.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that is the end of our podcast for our recap discussion for the cause for those of you who happen to be Patreon patrons, you get your bonus material.
[SPEAKER_01]: So please stay tuned for your bonus material for everyone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: We will be recapping the episode to the death with Terry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you a million times over to Penny for joining us for this podcast review.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Penny.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you guys.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: See you next time, everyone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_04]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_02]: Bye.