WEBVTT 00:05.887 --> 00:08.335 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 00:09.218 --> 00:15.036 [SPEAKER_00]: The show that explores the background of Tolkien's amazing world, from the very beginning. 00:25.985 --> 00:32.256 [SPEAKER_01]: As we near the end of chapter 15, we are seeing a transformation happen in front of us. 00:33.419 --> 00:36.404 [SPEAKER_01]: Thorin is falling to the dragon's sickness. 00:36.524 --> 00:42.475 [SPEAKER_01]: He is now in a location where he has complete control of the treasure. 00:42.455 --> 00:47.723 [SPEAKER_01]: that he's been seeking from the beginning of this adventure and that treasure is tainted. 00:47.823 --> 01:05.408 [SPEAKER_01]: It's tainted with the the the disease that is left there by smell because the dragon, not just the toxic fumes and the, I don't know, I'm sure doesn't even smell very good because if a dragon slept on a pile of treasure for years, it probably doesn't smell very good. 01:05.388 --> 01:07.154 [SPEAKER_01]: But there's something more going on. 01:07.576 --> 01:14.419 [SPEAKER_01]: There's this drag and sickness, and it's starting to take full effect, and I'm not just Thorin, but some of the other dwarves as well. 01:14.635 --> 01:16.818 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is a clear analogy. 01:16.858 --> 01:22.945 [SPEAKER_01]: It would be silly to say that this wasn't a reference to how power and wealth corrupts. 01:23.666 --> 01:26.449 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, in the broad strokes, of course, that is true. 01:27.009 --> 01:35.339 [SPEAKER_01]: But there are more nuanced details here that are worth investigating beyond just the kind of thing you would write in a high school essay. 01:35.820 --> 01:37.882 [SPEAKER_01]: You could probably make a case for a few different things. 01:37.942 --> 01:42.988 [SPEAKER_01]: So keep an eye out for some of this as we get through this chapter and moving forward. 01:42.968 --> 01:46.054 [SPEAKER_01]: The first is how malleable the facts are. 01:46.916 --> 01:48.759 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the conversations that are had. 01:48.800 --> 01:53.769 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the way the different groups play out their version of the stories. 01:54.130 --> 02:04.150 [SPEAKER_01]: Look at the way that they use specific words to label what the other side appears to be doing in order to manipulate the conversation. 02:04.130 --> 02:14.767 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that oftentimes the facts are used in order to support their specific goal, rather than for their goal to bend around the facts. 02:15.408 --> 02:20.235 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a telltale sign of using information in a corrupted manner. 02:20.315 --> 02:24.522 [SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the reasons why the scientific process is the way it is. 02:24.602 --> 02:29.209 [SPEAKER_01]: It's because it's trying to fight against these natural biases where we want to take the information 02:29.189 --> 02:35.298 [SPEAKER_01]: and wrap them around the thing we want to be true, rather than change our beliefs based on the information. 02:35.679 --> 02:36.841 [SPEAKER_01]: But that's just a small point. 02:37.381 --> 02:45.814 [SPEAKER_01]: Take note also how, when you are corrupted by power and wealth, how your inner circle gets smaller and smaller. 02:45.794 --> 02:48.998 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't reach out and bring other people in. 02:49.058 --> 02:57.769 [SPEAKER_01]: You isolate yourself because the goal becomes more important than the relationship that should be more important. 02:58.310 --> 03:00.112 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a biblical concept. 03:00.172 --> 03:01.274 [SPEAKER_01]: There are references to this. 03:01.434 --> 03:04.518 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, biblically and across other world faiths. 03:05.059 --> 03:07.361 [SPEAKER_01]: But this is a very real phenomenon. 03:07.642 --> 03:10.165 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, Tolkien has a grasp of all of this. 03:10.145 --> 03:16.713 [SPEAKER_01]: When you focus in on a goal like wealth or power, you are willing to sacrifice other things to that goal. 03:16.753 --> 03:17.974 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter what the goal is. 03:18.154 --> 03:28.446 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, whenever you focus too strongly on one goal, you end up in situations where you have to not focus on other things and so other things get left behind. 03:28.827 --> 03:38.818 [SPEAKER_01]: It's as simple as if you wanted to take on a job as a truck driver will then your career as an artist probably won't have as much time to focus into that. 03:38.798 --> 03:40.902 [SPEAKER_01]: You're going to become a truck driver, right? 03:41.303 --> 03:42.966 [SPEAKER_01]: Other things have to fall by the wayside. 03:43.006 --> 03:44.609 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just the way things work. 03:44.629 --> 03:57.432 [SPEAKER_01]: But in the specific scenario, you become isolated to the relationships that you could be building with others because the wealth and the power is more valuable, at least subjectively to you in that moment. 03:57.412 --> 03:59.577 [SPEAKER_01]: And this isolation doesn't come by itself. 04:00.119 --> 04:14.053 [SPEAKER_01]: It brings with it other things, like seeing everyone as an enemy, being suspicious of the motives of others because you assume that they have the same motives you have, but that's not always the case. 04:14.033 --> 04:15.636 [SPEAKER_01]: And there's more to it than just this. 04:15.676 --> 04:18.181 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll get into it as we get through this episode and into the future. 04:18.201 --> 04:29.882 [SPEAKER_01]: But keep your eyes open to the way that talking plays this out, both on a very personal level, but also on a negotiating between two different groups sort of level. 04:29.862 --> 04:39.318 [SPEAKER_01]: He clearly has an understanding of how human beings and their psychology causes them to interact with others and the situations around them. 04:39.819 --> 04:51.178 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, the larger scale of how this plays out and how individuals with this much power, with this much influence can change the fate. 04:51.158 --> 04:52.300 [SPEAKER_01]: of everybody around them. 04:52.761 --> 05:03.224 [SPEAKER_01]: It really is an amazing thing to dissect in a story like this by an author who lived through two world wars in our current day situations with all the chaos and the current state of the world. 05:03.325 --> 05:06.131 [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean it's terrifying but also very interesting, right? 05:06.431 --> 05:07.514 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, let's get into it. 05:07.594 --> 05:08.155 [SPEAKER_01]: Here we go. 05:24.284 --> 05:30.697 [SPEAKER_01]: They came at night when suddenly there were many lights as a fires and torches away south and Dale before them. 05:31.578 --> 05:35.606 [SPEAKER_01]: Bowen calls out, they have come, and their camp is very great. 05:36.328 --> 05:40.476 [SPEAKER_01]: They must have come into the valley under the cloak of dusk, along both banks of the river. 05:40.496 --> 05:46.107 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice, Tolkien always includes the how, like, how did this happen, how did they just show up? 05:46.087 --> 05:51.215 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a surprise because they were coming in under the cover of dusk along the banks of the river. 05:51.255 --> 05:54.019 [SPEAKER_01]: So it would have been harder for them to see them from that perspective. 05:54.380 --> 06:02.392 [SPEAKER_01]: But what's most important here is that they have brought masses of people, many lights and fires. 06:02.913 --> 06:06.458 [SPEAKER_01]: This is alarming to the dwarves. 06:06.438 --> 06:12.331 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things you'll notice throughout this section is how well Tolkien plays up the perspectives of both sides. 06:12.892 --> 06:19.827 [SPEAKER_01]: The dwarves were hoping for something like a small group to come and to check in on them and to have a conversation. 06:19.907 --> 06:26.100 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead, they have what appears to them to be two war bands at their doorstep. 06:26.080 --> 06:35.976 [SPEAKER_01]: we are told that they are armed for war and this is one of the first instances where we see elves go to war, at least chronologically in the releases of the the works of Tolkien. 06:36.497 --> 06:46.833 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this specific instance, there are Elvish Bowman, the elves from here on out are first and foremost known for their archers, for their Bowman. 06:46.913 --> 06:51.741 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course they can use other weapons, spears and swords and shields and other things as well. 06:51.841 --> 06:52.442 [SPEAKER_01]: But 06:52.422 --> 07:04.314 [SPEAKER_01]: The first glimpse we have of this is Elves with Bows, and just as the dwarves are surprised by the total number of people at their doorstep, these groups are surprised as well. 07:05.015 --> 07:10.200 [SPEAKER_01]: They see this pool before them and the gate blocked with a wall of new, hewn stone. 07:11.461 --> 07:19.189 [SPEAKER_01]: The front of this structure is barricaded as if it's ready to be caged. 07:19.169 --> 07:38.697 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that from both sides, even though they aren't necessarily trying to propose war, that's not necessarily in anybody's best interest, they are prepared for it, and so that seems to bring about a natural conclusion that war will in fact happen. 07:38.677 --> 07:51.312 [SPEAKER_01]: But imagine if this went the other way, imagine if the wall wasn't there and they could just march right in, would they have captured the, I don't know, grumpy dwarves who didn't want them there and just walked in to get what they wanted. 07:51.772 --> 08:03.486 [SPEAKER_01]: They could have, or what if the dwarves had seen a group that showed up, a small group to just converse about what was going on into parlay, things could have played out differently. 08:03.466 --> 08:12.916 [SPEAKER_01]: But in that example, the dragon sickness still would have taken hold in those messengers would have headed back and probably brought back soldiers with them. 08:13.756 --> 08:24.267 [SPEAKER_01]: And notice that Thorne calls this out from the beginning, who are you that come as if in war to the gates of Thorne, and then, of course, he explains who he is because of the pride and all of that. 08:24.347 --> 08:28.191 [SPEAKER_01]: Thorne, son of Thrain, King, under the mountain, and what do you desire? 08:28.171 --> 08:35.185 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice he positions himself now as king under the mountain, not the former king under the mountain, not the future king under the mountain. 08:35.746 --> 08:37.209 [SPEAKER_01]: The king under the mountain. 08:37.569 --> 08:43.621 [SPEAKER_01]: And this first group that gets close enough to hear his booming voice doesn't answer at all. 08:43.762 --> 08:45.886 [SPEAKER_01]: And this comes almost a surprise. 08:46.307 --> 08:48.070 [SPEAKER_01]: But think of it this way. 08:48.050 --> 08:58.147 [SPEAKER_01]: If these individuals did not have authority to speak to the king under the mountain, because they weren't the ambassadors, they weren't the leaders of the group, then of course there was nothing for them to say. 08:58.187 --> 08:59.449 [SPEAKER_01]: So they left. 09:00.130 --> 09:02.855 [SPEAKER_01]: It does feel a little odd, but it actually makes sense. 09:03.115 --> 09:14.614 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, I have to wonder if this wasn't something that Tolkien had experienced in wartime himself, people who were addressed, but then could not respond because they had no authority to do so. 09:14.594 --> 09:18.898 [SPEAKER_01]: Then we get this moment where the group returns back and they move the camp to a different location. 09:18.938 --> 09:21.240 [SPEAKER_01]: They're preparing for something. 09:21.700 --> 09:26.545 [SPEAKER_01]: But in doing so, we get a glimpse of who these people are. 09:26.585 --> 09:28.246 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we know who these people are, right? 09:28.266 --> 09:29.247 [SPEAKER_01]: They're the people of Laketown. 09:29.467 --> 09:30.668 [SPEAKER_01]: They're the elves from Merquwood. 09:31.149 --> 09:33.751 [SPEAKER_01]: But who they are in this moment? 09:34.672 --> 09:36.434 [SPEAKER_01]: There was music. 09:37.054 --> 09:39.176 [SPEAKER_01]: Harps and sweet music. 09:39.236 --> 09:40.237 [SPEAKER_01]: And it echoed up. 09:40.878 --> 09:44.601 [SPEAKER_01]: And the chill in the air itself was warmed. 09:44.581 --> 09:54.872 [SPEAKER_01]: We know from Tolkien's previous writings in this book that nature tends to reflect the mood of the people and the situations that the people are in. 09:55.473 --> 09:57.776 [SPEAKER_01]: And in this situation, it was chill. 09:58.356 --> 10:07.847 [SPEAKER_01]: This was a dire situation we're moving into winter and yet the music and the joyful sounds of singing warm the air. 10:08.588 --> 10:10.690 [SPEAKER_01]: That's not just a coincidence. 10:10.670 --> 10:21.510 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a symbol that these groups, even though they are wearing armor and equipped with weapons, have come for a peaceful reason. 10:22.312 --> 10:27.261 [SPEAKER_01]: They just want recompense for the things that have happened. 10:27.241 --> 10:31.224 [SPEAKER_01]: And Bard is going to lay this out in a very clear way in just a moment. 10:31.465 --> 10:34.728 [SPEAKER_01]: But before we get that moment, we get a song. 10:35.268 --> 10:39.972 [SPEAKER_01]: We find out that Bilbo longed to escape from the dark fortress. 10:40.112 --> 10:49.340 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice this is called a dark fortress now, not just because it is dark because it's a very large location with very few people in it and they can't keep it all lit. 10:49.861 --> 10:56.927 [SPEAKER_01]: But this location has become dark because of the sickness, the dragon sickness. 10:56.907 --> 11:04.824 [SPEAKER_01]: And some of the younger dwarves, and we'll find out who those are toward the end of this chapter, are also with him too, they're moved by this music. 11:05.145 --> 11:07.751 [SPEAKER_01]: They want to go out and be friends with these people. 11:08.031 --> 11:14.646 [SPEAKER_01]: They want to celebrate the death of the dragon, and yet the majority of the dwarves do not, especially Thorin. 11:14.626 --> 11:23.376 [SPEAKER_01]: So, almost like casting a spell, they use music in a very similar way to try to soften his mood in a positive way. 11:23.436 --> 11:27.281 [SPEAKER_01]: And we get this song, and I'll read through the whole song because these are always fun. 11:28.022 --> 11:31.466 [SPEAKER_01]: Under the mountain, dark in tall, the king has come unto his hall. 11:32.006 --> 11:36.972 [SPEAKER_01]: His foe is dead, the worm of dread, and ever so his foe is shelf all. 11:36.952 --> 11:41.401 [SPEAKER_01]: The sword is sharp, the spear is long, the arrow swift, the gate is strong. 11:41.802 --> 11:46.050 [SPEAKER_01]: The heart is bold that looks on gold, the dwarves know more shall suffer wrong. 11:46.571 --> 11:56.952 [SPEAKER_01]: The dwarves of your made mighty spells, while hammers fell like ringing bells, in places deep where dark things sleep and hollowed halls beneath the spells. 11:56.932 --> 12:00.016 [SPEAKER_01]: On silver necklaces they strung the light of stars. 12:00.497 --> 12:05.183 [SPEAKER_01]: On crowns they hung, the dragon fire from twisted wire, the melody of harps. 12:05.663 --> 12:06.124 [SPEAKER_01]: They rung. 12:06.164 --> 12:08.868 [SPEAKER_01]: The mountain thrown once more is freed. 12:09.008 --> 12:10.670 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wandering folk, the summons heed. 12:11.010 --> 12:12.873 [SPEAKER_01]: Come haste, come haste across the waste. 12:13.173 --> 12:16.037 [SPEAKER_01]: The king of friend and kin has need. 12:16.017 --> 12:23.888 [SPEAKER_01]: Now call we over mountains cold, come back unto the caverns old, here at the gates the king awaits his hands are rich with gems and gold. 12:24.429 --> 12:28.314 [SPEAKER_01]: The king is common to his hall under the mountain dark and tall. 12:28.735 --> 12:33.722 [SPEAKER_01]: The worm of dread is slain and dead, and ever so are foes shall fall. 12:34.141 --> 12:41.952 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that even though they are attempting to make him soften up, they are actually in some ways bolstering his perspective here. 12:42.272 --> 12:53.668 [SPEAKER_01]: Not only do we have this call in the summons to the other dwarves, the dwarves of the Iron Hills, dying in his people to come back to Eribor, to join them. 12:53.648 --> 13:17.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Assumingly not just in the celebration of the death of the dragon for some of them to move in for all of that stuff to happen, but also for the defense of this location it seems underscored here we also have these references to the history of the dwarves of on silver necklaces they strung the light of stars on crowns they hung this feels like the nougle mirror 13:17.240 --> 13:22.266 [SPEAKER_01]: The crown that the dwarves made for the elves in the first age, which eventually included the someral as well. 13:22.766 --> 13:35.200 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet when this was published, nobody would have known what this was a reference to, even though it is a real reference to something Tolkien had already written about and clearly saw in his own mind while talking about the dwarves. 13:35.220 --> 13:41.087 [SPEAKER_01]: It also links these dwarves back to their lineage, back to the lineage of the dwarves of the first age. 13:41.067 --> 13:47.597 [SPEAKER_01]: And in the exact following paragraph after this song, we see the response that this brings about in Thorin. 13:48.037 --> 13:48.739 [SPEAKER_01]: He smiles. 13:49.179 --> 13:50.041 [SPEAKER_01]: He grows Mary. 13:50.061 --> 13:57.692 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he begins to reckon the distance to the Iron Hills and how long it would take Dine to reach the lonely mountain. 13:57.672 --> 14:13.386 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you could interpret this as he longs for his kin, for his family, he hasn't seen, but really this is more about how much time will it take until he can mount a force to defend himself. 14:13.636 --> 14:16.459 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is reflected in Bilbo's reaction to this. 14:16.559 --> 14:19.783 [SPEAKER_01]: Bilbo's heart fell, both at the song and the talk. 14:20.143 --> 14:22.426 [SPEAKER_01]: They sounded much to warlike. 14:23.006 --> 14:27.511 [SPEAKER_01]: If it weren't for this note about Bilbo, right in the same exact paragraph, we would wonder. 14:27.712 --> 14:28.472 [SPEAKER_01]: We would wonder, oh, is it? 14:28.573 --> 14:30.835 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe he's just longing to see Dining in. 14:30.895 --> 14:34.960 [SPEAKER_01]: No, Bilbo understands the true meaning of this. 14:35.520 --> 14:37.062 [SPEAKER_01]: This is about war. 14:37.042 --> 14:40.106 [SPEAKER_01]: and like I talked about in the intro, let's be very clear. 14:40.867 --> 15:04.939 [SPEAKER_01]: War is a thing that exists when one powerful group decides that whatever they seem to believe that that war will gain them, power, land, wealth, control, whatever is more valuable than the lives of hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands or millions of people. 15:04.919 --> 15:20.110 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a very simple definition of war, but it rings true, yes, there have to be two sides to a war, and yes, both sides could be villainous in their goals and their intent, but there's always at least one instigator. 15:20.090 --> 15:44.376 [SPEAKER_01]: And you might be thinking, oh, well, it's one thing to value your own lives and not the lives of the enemy because maybe they are truly deserving of this terrible thing and losing their lives and all of that and there are usually justifications like that during wartime where you demonize the enemy or you make them feel less than human in order to justify the things that you're about to do. 15:44.356 --> 15:52.946 [SPEAKER_01]: But we have to remember that war always includes death to your own people, the people serving in that war. 15:53.426 --> 16:06.921 [SPEAKER_01]: So even if you were fighting a horde of demons and monsters, totally non-human things are aliens from another planet, you're still willing to risk and give the lives of your own people. 16:07.441 --> 16:11.485 [SPEAKER_01]: And when you put it in that perspective, that's an extremely dark take. 16:12.086 --> 16:19.013 [SPEAKER_01]: What could be so valuable that human lives in mass are worth sacrificing? 16:19.714 --> 16:31.106 [SPEAKER_01]: I can think of a few things, especially in the realm of defense of your own people and your own land and society and the things you really believe in when you are under attack from somebody else. 16:31.666 --> 16:33.909 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's another thing to turn that around. 16:34.549 --> 16:37.212 [SPEAKER_01]: Just a few things to keep in mind as we move forward. 16:37.192 --> 16:38.974 [SPEAKER_01]: So Bilbo knows that this isn't good. 16:39.034 --> 16:42.957 [SPEAKER_01]: The next morning, this company of spearmen is seen crossing the river. 16:43.057 --> 16:44.158 [SPEAKER_01]: They're keeping watch on this. 16:44.678 --> 16:46.800 [SPEAKER_01]: And the Elvin King's banner is seen as well. 16:47.381 --> 16:51.164 [SPEAKER_01]: And then this group advances and they stand right before the gate. 16:51.224 --> 16:55.328 [SPEAKER_01]: And Thorin in his loud voice says basically the same thing he said before. 16:55.708 --> 17:00.552 [SPEAKER_01]: Who are you that come armed for war to the gates of Thorin's son of Thrain? 17:00.652 --> 17:01.613 [SPEAKER_01]: King under the mountain. 17:01.813 --> 17:04.255 [SPEAKER_01]: Now notice that he didn't have to say armed for war. 17:04.336 --> 17:07.198 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't have to point this out. 17:07.178 --> 17:14.046 [SPEAKER_01]: Attempting to not just explain the situation, but to color the sides. 17:14.727 --> 17:23.096 [SPEAKER_01]: He's immediately in this first communication detailing that they are in the wrong, they are the aggressor. 17:23.577 --> 17:25.299 [SPEAKER_01]: And we get a very different response. 17:25.799 --> 17:30.925 [SPEAKER_01]: Hail Thorin, why do you fence yourself like a robber in this hole? 17:30.905 --> 17:32.227 [SPEAKER_01]: this is the flip side. 17:32.668 --> 17:37.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, if you're going to call us the aggressors, then we're going to define you as robbers. 17:38.478 --> 17:50.940 [SPEAKER_01]: You have claimed this unto yourselves completely without talking to us about it, and yet we're the ones who did a lot of the work and suffered the most under the dragon, which is going to be explained. 17:51.381 --> 17:54.887 [SPEAKER_01]: We are not yet foes trying to define this as like, okay, 17:54.867 --> 18:03.942 [SPEAKER_01]: Well you look like a robber if we look like we're coming to war you look like robbers but we are not yet foes so chill out and we rejoice that you are alive beyond our hope. 18:04.483 --> 18:06.647 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice the turn back to kindness here. 18:07.168 --> 18:14.260 [SPEAKER_01]: We came expecting to find none living here yet now that we are met there is matter for a parlay and a council. 18:14.240 --> 18:20.029 [SPEAKER_01]: This is coming across like, okay, if you're going to push, we're going to push back, but hey, we're glad you're alive. 18:20.470 --> 18:24.456 [SPEAKER_01]: We're glad that things have kind of worked out for you and now we can actually talk. 18:24.676 --> 18:25.437 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk. 18:26.218 --> 18:29.023 [SPEAKER_01]: Thorne responds, who are you and of what would you parlay? 18:29.043 --> 18:33.029 [SPEAKER_01]: Sound in kind of suspicious at least in my head reading the text. 18:33.690 --> 18:38.537 [SPEAKER_01]: I am barred and by my hand was the dragon's slain and your treasure delivered. 18:38.838 --> 18:42.964 [SPEAKER_01]: And Bard puts forth a really good explanation here about 18:42.944 --> 18:48.426 [SPEAKER_01]: He explains that in that hoard are some of the treasures that we're stolen from his people as well. 18:48.767 --> 18:49.952 [SPEAKER_01]: That's smoke stole. 18:50.534 --> 18:53.747 [SPEAKER_01]: And isn't that something that we should talk about? 18:53.913 --> 19:05.870 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, he explains that he is still the servant of the master of Lake Town, and he would like to talk about what happened, and don't you have any concern for what happened to my people? 19:06.531 --> 19:08.273 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's have a conversation about it. 19:08.674 --> 19:18.768 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, we aided you, we helped you out, and you may not have been there to notice what happened when the dragon attacked the town, but we were the ones who suffered and paid for that. 19:19.289 --> 19:21.372 [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk. 19:21.352 --> 19:29.747 [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds very reasonable, and in the very next paragraph, it says now these were fair words and true if proudly and grimly spoken. 19:30.127 --> 19:36.619 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe could have been delivered a little bit more elegantly, but this was true. 19:36.659 --> 19:41.267 [SPEAKER_01]: The facts about what happened are true and worth discussing. 19:41.247 --> 19:45.676 [SPEAKER_01]: So much so that Bilbo thinks that Thorin would admit what justice was in them. 19:45.716 --> 19:46.779 [SPEAKER_01]: That's actually in the text. 19:47.260 --> 19:50.747 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is because Bilbo has known Thorin now for this entire journey. 19:51.208 --> 19:53.453 [SPEAKER_01]: He knows that deep down he's a good person. 19:53.834 --> 19:55.557 [SPEAKER_01]: He is a moral person. 19:55.658 --> 19:59.205 [SPEAKER_01]: He is a just person, but something has changed. 19:59.185 --> 20:08.200 [SPEAKER_01]: There's also a note here about how Bilbo would not necessarily be remembered for being the one who discovered the Dragon's weak spot, and that was well, and no one ever did. 20:08.260 --> 20:10.324 [SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't something that was ever brought up before. 20:10.364 --> 20:13.589 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't discussed, and yet Bilbo was okay with that. 20:13.690 --> 20:21.042 [SPEAKER_01]: And what this does is it casts Bilbo as a character with humility who is not in it for himself. 20:21.022 --> 20:28.140 [SPEAKER_01]: It also gives us the perspective from that character as somebody who has a much more neutral and just view of things. 20:28.722 --> 20:32.512 [SPEAKER_01]: He is somebody without specific wants in this at all. 20:32.853 --> 20:34.256 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't long for the treasure. 20:34.597 --> 20:36.482 [SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't long for... 20:36.462 --> 20:44.633 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, revenge against the people who set the dragon after him or anything else you could probably cook up as to reasons why different groups would want what they want. 20:45.073 --> 20:46.315 [SPEAKER_01]: He just wants peace. 20:46.675 --> 20:51.101 [SPEAKER_01]: He wants these people to go back and be peaceful and to have harmony together. 20:51.642 --> 20:56.428 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, it's becoming more and more obvious to Bilbo that that is not going to happen. 20:56.408 --> 21:12.595 [SPEAKER_01]: And this is where we are told that Thorne has been spending a lot of time in the treasury, and specifically the lust of it was heavy on him in reference to the influence of the gold, the dragon sickness, and the fact that he's a dwarf means that he was a little bit more prone to being affected by all that. 21:12.575 --> 21:14.798 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, let's take a look at Thorne's response to Bard here. 21:14.818 --> 21:20.424 [SPEAKER_01]: He says, you put your worst cause last and in the chief place to the treasure of my people. 21:20.504 --> 21:25.791 [SPEAKER_01]: No man has a claim because Smaug who stole it from us also robbed him of life or home. 21:26.211 --> 21:31.397 [SPEAKER_01]: The treasure was not his that his evil deeds should be amended with a share of it. 21:31.697 --> 21:42.430 [SPEAKER_01]: The price of the goods in the assistance that we received of the Lakemen will, we will fairly pay in due time, but nothing we will give, not even a loaf's worth. 21:42.410 --> 21:44.313 [SPEAKER_01]: under threat of force. 21:44.333 --> 21:50.163 [SPEAKER_01]: While an armed host lies before our doors, we look on you as foes and thieves. 21:50.624 --> 21:52.968 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice he's turned this back around on him. 21:52.988 --> 21:55.232 [SPEAKER_01]: This is an armed force they are in army. 21:55.633 --> 22:04.047 [SPEAKER_01]: And he has stated here that it is their fair claim to the treasure, and so therefore the thieves are not them, it is the others. 22:04.027 --> 22:11.174 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, he's saying, it's not our job to make up for the evil things Smell did, just because he attacked your city and you suffered from that. 22:11.314 --> 22:12.735 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we can't take responsibility. 22:13.296 --> 22:14.457 [SPEAKER_01]: He did that on his own. 22:14.557 --> 22:15.498 [SPEAKER_01]: He's an evil dragon. 22:15.518 --> 22:16.499 [SPEAKER_01]: What did you expect? 22:16.799 --> 22:17.640 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, what he's saying. 22:18.240 --> 22:24.166 [SPEAKER_01]: Really, what he's doing here is not conveying any amount of sympathy or care for them at all. 22:24.606 --> 22:25.968 [SPEAKER_01]: He's staking his claim. 22:26.308 --> 22:33.915 [SPEAKER_01]: He's planting his flag in the sand and saying, 22:33.895 --> 22:43.517 [SPEAKER_01]: I will give you a little bit back in order to pay for the share that you helped us out with early on but everything that happened after that 22:43.565 --> 22:44.426 [SPEAKER_01]: is not my fault. 22:44.727 --> 22:53.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Then he turns it around and says, it is in my mind to ask what share of their inheritance, you would have had paid to our Kindred, had you found the hoard unguarded and us slain? 22:54.400 --> 22:57.504 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, wouldn't you have kept it for yourself to? 22:57.565 --> 23:02.231 [SPEAKER_01]: Bard replies a just question, but you are not dead and we are not robbers. 23:02.712 --> 23:12.205 [SPEAKER_01]: Moreover the wealthy may have pity beyond right on the needy that befriended them when they were in want and still my other claims remain unanswered. 23:12.185 --> 23:23.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, saying, come on, man, that is a hypothetical, we are not in that situation, we are in this situation, and it is not unfair for the wealthy to take pity on the needy. 23:23.969 --> 23:27.797 [SPEAKER_01]: That is not a high-ask, come on. 23:27.777 --> 23:29.179 [SPEAKER_01]: it's basically what he's saying. 23:29.720 --> 23:36.328 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he says, Thorin says, I will not parlay as I have said with armed men at my gate again, setting a boundary. 23:36.729 --> 23:38.891 [SPEAKER_01]: And this you see this in politics all the time. 23:39.352 --> 23:44.899 [SPEAKER_01]: I will not do anything to move forward this conversation until you do this. 23:45.360 --> 23:47.963 [SPEAKER_01]: What that is is a flex of power. 23:47.943 --> 23:54.011 [SPEAKER_01]: It's an attempt to show that one side will bend before the other and proclaim dominance. 23:54.432 --> 23:57.917 [SPEAKER_01]: It really has nothing to do with them being armed at that is gate. 23:58.157 --> 24:02.323 [SPEAKER_01]: They could walk away and come back, not being armed, and the answer would still be no. 24:02.763 --> 24:11.535 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to change, but everyone involved will now know that one side got the other side to do a thing without getting anything else back. 24:11.756 --> 24:13.478 [SPEAKER_01]: It's all just a display of power. 24:13.458 --> 24:20.544 [SPEAKER_01]: And Thorn doubles down on this against the elves, nor at all with the people of the Elvin King, who I remember with small kindness. 24:20.844 --> 24:22.886 [SPEAKER_01]: Remember, he's like, well, they captured us. 24:22.946 --> 24:23.947 [SPEAKER_01]: They would not let us go. 24:24.187 --> 24:28.851 [SPEAKER_01]: And is basically saying they showed no kindness, but we know that they did show some forms of kindness. 24:28.871 --> 24:33.335 [SPEAKER_01]: They could have been much more terrible with them in captivity, but they kept them fed. 24:33.375 --> 24:37.258 [SPEAKER_01]: They kept them, well, alive, separated, but alive. 24:37.539 --> 24:42.823 [SPEAKER_01]: And sure, that's not a wonderful thing, 24:42.803 --> 24:57.102 [SPEAKER_01]: And then he tells them they need to leave before he lets his arrows fly, and if they would speak with him again, if we were going to continue this conversation, you first have to dismiss the elves to the woods and then return without your arms. 24:57.662 --> 25:00.426 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that the requirement has now increased. 25:00.446 --> 25:06.354 [SPEAKER_01]: Not only come before me without your arms, but send all of this host back home. 25:06.854 --> 25:08.997 [SPEAKER_01]: They must leave right now. 25:08.977 --> 25:16.668 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you get thousands of individuals to just go, well, I guess it wasn't worth the trip, we'll just go back home. 25:16.728 --> 25:18.571 [SPEAKER_01]: It's unreasonable. 25:19.012 --> 25:20.334 [SPEAKER_01]: They're not going to do that. 25:20.915 --> 25:22.657 [SPEAKER_01]: Thor knows they're not going to do that. 25:23.078 --> 25:24.680 [SPEAKER_01]: And yet, Bard defends them. 25:24.800 --> 25:32.672 [SPEAKER_01]: The Elven King is my friend, and he has suckered my people of the lake in their need, though they had no claim but friendship on him. 25:32.652 --> 25:33.674 [SPEAKER_01]: He's doing two things here. 25:33.894 --> 25:37.241 [SPEAKER_01]: He's explaining that the elves are part of their group. 25:37.602 --> 25:44.115 [SPEAKER_01]: The elves have helped and supported his people in their time of need due to nothing more than their own kindness. 25:44.616 --> 25:47.281 [SPEAKER_01]: And secondly, they have done what you haven't. 25:48.163 --> 25:53.614 [SPEAKER_01]: They were in a position of wealth and authority and power when we had nothing left. 25:53.594 --> 25:59.985 [SPEAKER_01]: and they went about doing good things to help us, even though they had no need to do so. 26:01.006 --> 26:02.088 [SPEAKER_01]: But is that true? 26:02.128 --> 26:04.031 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that 100% true? 26:04.753 --> 26:07.878 [SPEAKER_01]: Does the Elven King really do this out of the kindness of his heart? 26:08.058 --> 26:15.270 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is he noting that there is an army here that will be very valuable to him if they owe him something? 26:15.871 --> 26:18.235 [SPEAKER_01]: And then the stakes are raised even more. 26:18.215 --> 26:20.157 [SPEAKER_01]: a banner bearer cries out. 26:20.317 --> 26:25.302 [SPEAKER_01]: In the name of Escaroth and the forest, we speak unto Thorin Thrain's son, who can shield. 26:25.662 --> 26:27.624 [SPEAKER_01]: Calling himself the king under the mountain. 26:27.644 --> 26:29.846 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice the calling himself under the king under the mountain. 26:30.487 --> 26:35.291 [SPEAKER_01]: And we bid him consider well the claims that have been urged or be declared our foe. 26:35.731 --> 26:44.260 [SPEAKER_01]: Basically they're leveraging their place of power here in the fact that this is a small group that are kind of hold up in a place and not able to defend themselves. 26:44.680 --> 26:46.922 [SPEAKER_01]: So things 26:46.902 --> 26:50.987 [SPEAKER_01]: At the least, he shall deliver one 12th portion of the Treasurer unto Bard. 26:51.448 --> 27:04.545 [SPEAKER_01]: Notice that it's a 12th portion, which they have an understanding of how the Treasurer was going to be divvied out among the party or, you know, it feels convenient that it's a 12th. 27:04.565 --> 27:08.790 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, it's a massive horde and a 12th is still probably a very large amount of money. 27:09.051 --> 27:16.420 [SPEAKER_01]: And then they named Bard the Dragon Slayer, who is the heir of Gyrion and basically lay out his 27:16.400 --> 27:20.289 [SPEAKER_01]: ancestry and how it is nearly as important as Thorens himself. 27:20.510 --> 27:24.840 [SPEAKER_01]: And this concludes with one slight turn that says, okay, but no, we're still open to being friends here. 27:25.160 --> 27:35.404 [SPEAKER_01]: But if Thorens would have the friendship and honor of the lands about as his sires had of old, then he will give also somewhat of his own for the comfort of the men of the lakes. 27:35.384 --> 27:44.533 [SPEAKER_01]: This is a final attempt for them to say, hey, remember, we used to be friends, just like your father and your father's father, just like our ancestors. 27:45.093 --> 27:50.519 [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we cooperate and maybe you can be a bigger man like they were and help us out? 27:50.899 --> 27:51.960 [SPEAKER_01]: We killed the dragon. 27:52.360 --> 27:55.664 [SPEAKER_01]: You wouldn't have this if it wasn't for us, is basically what they're saying. 27:56.064 --> 28:03.231 [SPEAKER_01]: And to that response, previously when Thorn 28:03.211 --> 28:13.966 [SPEAKER_01]: He shoots at the speaker, it doesn't kill him, the arrow strikes a shield, but notice this is not just a sign, it is the first attack in a war. 28:14.327 --> 28:19.655 [SPEAKER_01]: It's one thing to march up to a fortified location with your armor and your weapons. 28:20.115 --> 28:24.882 [SPEAKER_01]: It's another to take the first swing or in this case the first bo-shot. 28:24.862 --> 28:27.385 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, they do the only thing they can do. 28:27.465 --> 28:30.187 [SPEAKER_01]: They declare that the mountain is besieged. 28:30.768 --> 28:33.471 [SPEAKER_01]: And they say, hey, you cannot leave. 28:33.891 --> 28:34.812 [SPEAKER_01]: We have surrounded you. 28:35.112 --> 28:46.544 [SPEAKER_01]: And until you reach out to us and want to parlay, want to discuss these terms, then you, you can just stay in there with all your treasure, and hopefully you can eat the gold, because you're not getting any food from us. 28:46.925 --> 28:52.270 [SPEAKER_01]: And the last two little paragraphs in this whole chapter, some of this up pretty well. 28:52.250 --> 29:07.356 [SPEAKER_01]: With that the messengers departed swiftly and the dwarves were left to consider their case, so grim had Thorn become, that even if they had wished, the others would not have dared to find fault with him, but indeed most of them seemed to chair his mind. 29:07.336 --> 29:15.648 [SPEAKER_01]: Except perhaps old Fat Bomber and Philly and Killy and Bilbo, of course, just proved of the whole turn of affairs. 29:16.088 --> 29:21.997 [SPEAKER_01]: He had by now had more than enough of the mountain and being besieged inside it was not at all to his taste. 29:22.858 --> 29:30.188 [SPEAKER_01]: Quote, the whole place still stinks of dragon he grumble to himself and it makes me sick and cram is beginning simply to stick in my throat. 29:48.055 --> 29:50.359 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope you enjoyed the little crossover episode. 29:50.399 --> 29:52.602 [SPEAKER_01]: We did last week in place of a regular episode. 29:52.642 --> 30:01.617 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been trying to incorporate more of the other shows on the network into some fun little things here and there, maybe three or four times a year at the most, but I hope you enjoyed that. 30:01.697 --> 30:03.740 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm glad to be back talking about the Hobbit again. 30:03.780 --> 30:05.102 [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting so close to the end. 30:05.082 --> 30:13.917 [SPEAKER_01]: But also, happy to be welcoming our newest patrons, Hall Epic Clay E Jack, a Marcelo H. Marcelo has a very long name. 30:13.977 --> 30:19.006 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to go with H. And Adam, see, welcome to the Patreon so glad that you decided to sign up. 30:19.026 --> 30:24.255 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you were enjoying your bonus episodes or your ad free episodes and any of the stuff that you get on the Patreon. 30:24.235 --> 30:26.097 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, have to shout out our VIP patrons. 30:26.177 --> 30:29.280 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, patreon.com slash L-O-T are a lorecast if you're looking for that. 30:29.441 --> 30:35.307 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for your continued support to Folk Room, Apollo, David S, Daniel Knightweaver, Capena, Richard J.T. 30:35.347 --> 30:35.727 [SPEAKER_01]: J.T. 30:35.847 --> 30:36.088 [SPEAKER_01]: A.K. 30:36.108 --> 30:44.597 [SPEAKER_01]: musical lover, Barney D, as a Razzle, Lori B, Mason Weathertop Jezzer, Gimlia Break, Divine Madman, Rosie Rose, Ginger Fury, who on is my hero, Aldarian was right. 30:44.777 --> 30:49.322 [SPEAKER_01]: A burial, Matt, Party Snacks, single-ent looking for antwives, Mal twill? 30:49.722 --> 30:50.583 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to pronounce that. 30:50.603 --> 30:54.107 [SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe you changed your name, but it seems very French, and I don't know. 30:54.087 --> 30:59.175 [SPEAKER_01]: pronounce that one, nor we genius Balrogius Hunter is, which I do know how to pronounce better. 30:59.215 --> 31:03.421 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Chris K and Bruce W. Thank you so much for your continued support. 31:03.741 --> 31:07.066 [SPEAKER_01]: Also, man, talking a lot, and I stumble over words. 31:07.126 --> 31:07.867 [SPEAKER_01]: That's just how it goes. 31:08.288 --> 31:13.075 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to those of you who leave reviews and ratings on Apple podcasts and other locations. 31:13.055 --> 31:14.918 [SPEAKER_01]: We got two more for the U.S. 31:15.078 --> 31:15.739 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna read these out. 31:15.759 --> 31:16.440 [SPEAKER_01]: This is from Jay. 31:16.821 --> 31:19.385 [SPEAKER_01]: Hanlon 89, who writes fantastic. 31:19.805 --> 31:24.012 [SPEAKER_01]: I started my unexpected journey with this pot after coming over from the Fallout Lord cast. 31:24.032 --> 31:28.879 [SPEAKER_01]: Toma Robots' voice is very soothing, and he dives and thoughts into the lore is fantastic. 31:28.899 --> 31:31.543 [SPEAKER_01]: I find myself telling others about the lore. 31:31.603 --> 31:39.836 [SPEAKER_01]: I learned I had to read the Hobbit when I was in school, which at this point was 25 years ago, but the Hobbit started my journey and I'm glad I found my way here. 31:39.896 --> 31:40.817 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much. 31:40.797 --> 31:51.829 [SPEAKER_01]: Jay and then this one from reviewing username guy who writes amazing didn't mean to really start this podcast But was surprised by the passion and death of the content happy to have found this podcast Thanks so much. 31:52.169 --> 31:56.513 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm glad you stumbled upon us and thank you for taking the time to leave the review You guys are the best. 31:56.854 --> 32:10.348 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for being here and I look forward to following up with chapter 16 next week until then stay safe out there and if you find yourself negotiating with a I don't know a treasure crazed dwarf then 32:10.328 --> 32:13.138 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe threatening war isn't the thing that will change his mind? 32:13.419 --> 32:15.606 [SPEAKER_01]: On second thought, maybe nothing will change his mind. 32:15.626 --> 32:18.335 [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe just don't have conversations with that guy. 32:18.697 --> 32:20.001 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I'll see you next time. 32:23.390 --> 32:26.173 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to the Lord of the Rings lorecast. 32:26.194 --> 32:30.178 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to learn more about other fantasy worlds, check out my other podcasts. 32:30.199 --> 32:34.544 [SPEAKER_01]: The Elder Scrolls lorecast, the Witcher lorecast, and more at robotsradio.net. 32:35.025 --> 32:36.867 [SPEAKER_01]: If you'd like to reach out, I'd love to hear from you. 32:37.367 --> 32:44.036 [SPEAKER_01]: Send me a note on Twitter at robots underscore radio, or join our amazing community on the robots radio discord. 32:44.436 --> 32:50.444 [SPEAKER_01]: There are links in the show notes, or just search robotsradio discord, or find the link on robotsradio.net. 32:50.464 --> 32:51.405 [SPEAKER_01]: I'll see you next time.