WEBVTT 00:07.085 --> 00:08.729 [SPEAKER_00]: and welcome to our show. 00:09.010 --> 00:11.336 [SPEAKER_00]: The shit no one tells you about writing. 00:12.078 --> 00:21.381 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm best selling author Bianca Marie, and I'm joined by CC Lira of Wendy Sherman Associates and Carly Waters of PS Literary. 00:22.238 --> 00:25.561 [SPEAKER_00]: everyone welcome back to one of our author interviews. 00:25.721 --> 00:28.323 [SPEAKER_00]: Today's guest is one who is returning. 00:28.704 --> 00:32.848 [SPEAKER_00]: I think for the third or fourth time because we love having her on the show so much. 00:33.348 --> 00:47.180 [SPEAKER_00]: Hannah Mary McKinnon was born in the UK grew up in Switzerland and now lives in Canada with her husband and three sons connect with her on social media at Hannah Mary McKinnon and visit Hannah Mary McKinnon.com. 00:47.541 --> 00:48.962 [SPEAKER_00]: Hannah welcome back to the show. 00:49.322 --> 00:49.743 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 00:49.883 --> 00:50.924 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me again. 00:50.944 --> 00:52.245 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to be here. 00:52.225 --> 01:08.479 [SPEAKER_00]: It's always so lovely to chat with you for those of you who are not watching on our YouTube channel I'm holding up the cover of the book a killer motor of don't don't don't don't and I'm gonna give you a quick read of the flat copy So that you have some context before we dive in 01:08.459 --> 01:17.872 [SPEAKER_00]: Right to Stella Dixon sneaking her teenage brother out of their parents' house for a beach party was harmless fun, until Max disappeared without a trace. 01:18.372 --> 01:23.139 [SPEAKER_00]: Sikshers later, Stella's family is still broken and she can't let go of her guilt. 01:23.619 --> 01:31.530 [SPEAKER_00]: The only thing that keeps her going is helping other families find closure through a killer motive her true crime podcast. 01:31.510 --> 01:37.019 [SPEAKER_00]: in a bit to find new sponsors and keep making episodes, Stella goes on a local radio show. 01:37.420 --> 01:46.035 [SPEAKER_00]: But when she says on air that if she had just one clue, she'd find Max and bring you ever hurt into justice, someone takes it as a challenge. 01:46.495 --> 01:54.008 [SPEAKER_00]: A mysterious invitation to play a game arrives with the promise that if Stella wins, she'll get information about what happened to Max. 01:53.988 --> 02:00.337 [SPEAKER_00]: Stella thinks it's a sick joke until Max's best friend vanishes, and she's given new instructions. 02:00.357 --> 02:02.580 [SPEAKER_00]: Tell no one or people will die. 02:02.641 --> 02:06.566 [SPEAKER_00]: Despite an unable to trust anyone, Stella agrees. 02:06.927 --> 02:16.080 [SPEAKER_00]: But beating a twisted invisible enemy seems impossible when they make all the rules. 02:16.398 --> 02:31.539 [SPEAKER_00]: So you and I have chatted a lot during a different interviews and in pandons, et cetera, about your very detailed adlining process, how that takes a month, how you will put sort of vision boards and pictures of things, et cetera. 02:31.579 --> 02:34.643 [SPEAKER_00]: So today what I want to focus on is, 02:35.129 --> 02:45.942 [SPEAKER_00]: your characterisation during your art learning process because you build these really real visceral characters even your antagonist which is so difficult to do. 02:46.363 --> 02:51.829 [SPEAKER_00]: So you've said you have a three-page questionnaire in which you interview your main character. 02:51.849 --> 02:56.415 [SPEAKER_00]: So at times it's protagonist, sometimes it's protagonist and antagonist. 02:56.775 --> 02:58.457 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you take us through their process? 02:58.858 --> 02:59.619 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure. 02:59.639 --> 03:00.320 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'd love to. 03:00.340 --> 03:03.043 [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you for the lovely compliments about my characters. 03:03.344 --> 03:09.593 [SPEAKER_01]: I work very hard to make them seem real to me and I hope that translates into the readers experience as well. 03:10.394 --> 03:17.945 [SPEAKER_01]: So the three page interview or question if you're like, has got the basic things and what do they look like, you know, how tall are they, that kind of thing. 03:17.965 --> 03:21.150 [SPEAKER_01]: But then it's way more detailed so there'd be questions. 03:21.130 --> 03:27.497 [SPEAKER_01]: where the answers to those questions don't actually feed into the book, but they make the character real, which is the whole point of this question. 03:27.537 --> 03:31.883 [SPEAKER_01]: So some of those questions would be, for example, to they believe in ghosts. 03:32.083 --> 03:33.484 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't write paranormal stuff. 03:33.504 --> 03:34.726 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't write ghost stories. 03:34.786 --> 03:38.170 [SPEAKER_01]: So one might think, well, what on earth does that have to do with anything? 03:38.730 --> 03:41.994 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they'll inform me about the kind of character that they are. 03:42.615 --> 03:43.416 [SPEAKER_01]: Do they believe in ghosts? 03:43.436 --> 03:44.637 [SPEAKER_01]: Have they ever seen one? 03:44.918 --> 03:49.483 [SPEAKER_01]: And in what circumstances have they ever seen a dead body before? 03:49.852 --> 03:54.149 [SPEAKER_01]: and, again, what circumstances, and what is their relationship like with their parents? 03:54.249 --> 03:55.333 [SPEAKER_01]: Do they have a mentor? 03:55.374 --> 03:57.060 [SPEAKER_01]: Do they still listen to them? 03:57.445 --> 04:02.153 [SPEAKER_01]: Are they still around or have they maybe they've lost them and that's a big, big hole in their lives. 04:02.794 --> 04:05.378 [SPEAKER_01]: One of the questions that I really like is towards the end. 04:05.398 --> 04:06.580 [SPEAKER_01]: That's also stuff about money. 04:06.861 --> 04:09.285 [SPEAKER_01]: If they inherited a hundred grand, what would they do with it? 04:09.425 --> 04:12.751 [SPEAKER_01]: So is it someone who's going to get off to Vegas? 04:12.871 --> 04:14.413 [SPEAKER_01]: Or is it somebody who's going to invest? 04:14.534 --> 04:18.360 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, conservatively what informs me again about the character. 04:18.921 --> 04:23.689 [SPEAKER_01]: But these two questions of a couple of questions at the end that I find really interesting is 04:23.669 --> 04:30.564 [SPEAKER_01]: Where are they at the beginning of the story and where are they at the end, both physically and emotionally? 04:31.285 --> 04:38.721 [SPEAKER_01]: But then also, why am I interested as the writer in this character, why should the reader be? 04:39.402 --> 04:43.551 [SPEAKER_01]: So those four questions actually really inform me about the arc. 04:44.122 --> 04:46.365 [SPEAKER_01]: and the purpose of the character. 04:46.385 --> 04:53.053 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do these questioners for the main characters, certainly for the antagonist, the put protagonist. 04:53.474 --> 04:59.241 [SPEAKER_01]: But also some of the side characters, not all of them, because they can imagine that be exhausting. 04:59.702 --> 05:07.632 [SPEAKER_01]: But for this supporting cast, if you like, so that each time I bring them out onto the stage, so to speak, I remember 05:08.135 --> 05:09.557 [SPEAKER_01]: little details about them. 05:09.577 --> 05:13.062 [SPEAKER_01]: I might go back and read the questionnaire and think, what's the point of this character? 05:13.482 --> 05:15.445 [SPEAKER_01]: What more can I do with them? 05:15.465 --> 05:34.530 [SPEAKER_01]: So I find it it really helpful to do this questionnaire, but then also, for the main character, the protagonist and the antenna, so whoever has a point of view, really, and whoever's messing with them, potentially, to really build out their backstory, bullet point, you know, what made them who they are, 05:35.033 --> 05:45.567 [SPEAKER_01]: when the story starts, because at that point I know that pretty well and I can, I feel I can start writing and discover the more as I write, but it gives me a good, a really good starting point. 05:46.660 --> 06:15.874 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and do you find it's the same questionnaire you use with every book so you open your binder and there is the henna questionnaire or do you find that the questions change from book to book and genre to genre because you write across different genres can you tell us but more about that and some advice for our listeners who are wanting to put together a questionnaire of their own so I always use the same one it has evolved a bit I think something I found online and then 06:16.175 --> 06:31.901 [SPEAKER_01]: something else I found online and kind of stitched together and then added in my own questions or when I've been on panels, you know, people say, oh yeah, I interview my character half this question there and I always asked them, I remember one that I didn't put in that I can't remember who said it and I really should. 06:32.382 --> 06:34.285 [SPEAKER_01]: It's what do they have in their fridge? 06:35.378 --> 06:36.560 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was really cool. 06:36.600 --> 06:38.163 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's, you know, what do they have today? 06:38.183 --> 06:38.744 [SPEAKER_01]: Have anything? 06:38.924 --> 06:39.605 [SPEAKER_01]: Or what do they do? 06:39.625 --> 06:41.789 [SPEAKER_01]: They have six bottles of rosé, or do they? 06:42.530 --> 06:51.165 [SPEAKER_01]: But what is the locker cheese or was it really well stocked or because that again informs about the character that I just remember that question. 06:51.185 --> 06:52.267 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to add that one in. 06:52.848 --> 06:57.716 [SPEAKER_01]: And as for advice, I'm going to put your stuff online, but if anybody wants to use my name, I'm happy to share. 06:57.736 --> 06:59.479 [SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing proprietary about it. 06:59.459 --> 07:05.417 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds absolutely amazing, Hannah, is there any chance you would share this with our Substack Subscribers? 07:05.758 --> 07:08.305 [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, absolutely everyone, no problem at all. 07:08.707 --> 07:09.608 [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing. 07:09.628 --> 07:11.390 [SPEAKER_00]: We love showing these kinds of resources. 07:11.430 --> 07:30.192 [SPEAKER_00]: So for those of you who get our Tuesday substax, look out for this one, I have come way to dive in and like Hannah said, you can take that, but then you can build on it yourself because I love that part about the fridge because it's so true because it tells you whether this character plans, it tells you how structured they life, 07:30.172 --> 07:51.612 [SPEAKER_00]: are they someone who's constantly on the run, perhaps they're on call emergencies, perhaps they have someone who's more like a carry branch or who uses their fridge for storage space, then they're cooking etc, you know, or perhaps they just someone who's got a complicated relationship with food, so such a simple question can really reveal so so much. 07:51.632 --> 07:58.879 [SPEAKER_01]: It really does and I'd say the vast majority of of this stuff that I imagine about the characters doesn't make it into the book, 07:59.753 --> 08:07.162 [SPEAKER_01]: but it just makes them real as I'm writing them and the little things might filter in and I find that really interesting too. 08:07.502 --> 08:23.761 [SPEAKER_01]: And what's really funny is I've noticed when I do these questionnaires at the beginning when I outline and then I start writing, I might refer back and realize actually how much I guess subconsciously remember of this stuff I made up about them. 08:23.782 --> 08:26.084 [SPEAKER_01]: And I might not look at it for a couple of months ago. 08:26.104 --> 08:28.427 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, yeah. 08:28.913 --> 08:39.687 [SPEAKER_01]: whatever siblings and, you know, this is their job, so whatever, and I haven't kind of maybe done it in a bit of a rush without overthinking it. 08:39.767 --> 08:47.556 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the thing when I do the question now, I really, really don't overthink I just make it up on the fly about who these people are, except for the really deep questions. 08:47.596 --> 08:50.200 [SPEAKER_01]: There I, I don't know, what colors they're so far. 08:50.300 --> 08:52.823 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't actually have that question, but I might be a good one. 08:52.843 --> 08:53.944 [SPEAKER_01]: What color is there so far? 08:53.964 --> 08:54.465 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, I'll just 08:54.580 --> 08:55.584 [SPEAKER_01]: green on them. 08:55.604 --> 08:57.171 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what color they're eyes blue? 08:57.312 --> 09:00.726 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I'll make this up for green or vice versa, so it's not all safe. 09:01.111 --> 09:08.499 [SPEAKER_00]: Right, but I love that even though you outline a lot and you stick to that, you've always said that you're not married to that outline. 09:08.519 --> 09:12.063 [SPEAKER_00]: You are prepared to be flexible and you're prepared to change things. 09:12.083 --> 09:30.763 [SPEAKER_00]: So other times that you go back to the author questionnaire and perhaps say that somebody is very, you know, philosophical or spiritual or whatever and then you decide to know they're not and you change it or do you find yourself leaving something blank and coming 09:30.845 --> 09:37.716 [SPEAKER_01]: typically not, I don't typically leave anything blank and normally fill it in, but you're right, I'm not married to it. 09:37.736 --> 09:49.874 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I might think that it's a good idea to give somebody and a large family, but then it's complicated to write about them, you know, where they all did, because I don't want them all in the book. 09:49.894 --> 09:54.962 [SPEAKER_01]: So I do change things as I go along and sometimes, 09:55.246 --> 10:03.610 [SPEAKER_01]: what I've written in the question and it doesn't really, it doesn't matter because that particular thing in that case didn't really serve a purpose. 10:03.670 --> 10:10.690 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just, I find it's a great way to get to know the characters and it also helps procrastinate, honestly, before I start. 10:11.142 --> 10:14.006 [SPEAKER_01]: having to fill 300 blank pages. 10:15.468 --> 10:17.411 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, geez, it is. 10:17.752 --> 10:23.260 [SPEAKER_00]: I love how every writer's got their procrastination process and for many writers, it's research. 10:23.701 --> 10:25.563 [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll be like, no, no, I'm researching. 10:25.603 --> 10:28.067 [SPEAKER_00]: And you'll be like, but you've been researching for eight years now. 10:28.127 --> 10:30.230 [SPEAKER_00]: It might be time to actually start writing this. 10:30.250 --> 10:31.412 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, exactly. 10:31.392 --> 10:45.928 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I mean, it's the iceberg principle again, you know, the readers going to see the tip of the iceberg on the page, but you as the writer need to know everything that's underneath because you need to know the threats that the reader doesn't see coming. 10:46.028 --> 10:55.738 [SPEAKER_00]: They're just going to say, this is the iceberg, but you know the characters psyche and you know that they're presenting to be really lovely, but you know that shit's about to happen or why shit's about to happen. 10:55.758 --> 10:58.281 [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of the time that stuff is so important. 10:58.741 --> 11:00.403 [SPEAKER_01]: That's such a great point because 11:00.772 --> 11:09.820 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just that protagonist that you need to know really well, although at the point of view characters that you really need to know well, you need to know in crime certainly. 11:10.160 --> 11:12.663 [SPEAKER_01]: What are the roles and romance actually come to think of it? 11:13.303 --> 11:25.674 [SPEAKER_01]: If you have the antagonist or the love interest, if you like, let's stick with crime for a minute, you need to know the antagonist just as well, the author does, but your protagonist can't. 11:25.794 --> 11:29.057 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's where I find it so it can be so tricky because 11:29.341 --> 11:30.604 [SPEAKER_01]: I know the protagonist. 11:31.085 --> 11:32.527 [SPEAKER_01]: I know what's going on in their lives. 11:32.588 --> 11:33.449 [SPEAKER_01]: That's takes Stella. 11:33.870 --> 11:35.553 [SPEAKER_01]: I know who the antagonist is. 11:35.614 --> 11:36.756 [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't. 11:37.277 --> 11:38.580 [SPEAKER_01]: I know their motivations. 11:38.980 --> 11:39.662 [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't. 11:40.043 --> 11:42.287 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can't I can't reveal. 11:43.010 --> 11:43.651 [SPEAKER_01]: both of them. 11:43.671 --> 12:01.573 [SPEAKER_01]: So I have been known, I just did this recently actually, to just get a note pattern, write the antagonist story completely separately, and what they're doing, how they're messing with the protagonist, and what the protagonists reaction will be, and that's the part that you'll see in the book. 12:01.673 --> 12:08.902 [SPEAKER_01]: You won't see necessarily the antagonist actually doing anything, but you'll see the reaction of the protagonist, so you have to know them well. 12:08.922 --> 12:11.886 [SPEAKER_01]: You have to build 12:12.187 --> 12:17.614 [SPEAKER_01]: As the author, I need to know what the protagonist is all about and why they're doing the things that they're doing. 12:17.995 --> 12:19.697 [SPEAKER_01]: Because otherwise I don't understand them. 12:19.938 --> 12:21.600 [SPEAKER_01]: And that for me is fundamental. 12:21.660 --> 12:23.462 [SPEAKER_01]: I need to understand my characters. 12:23.983 --> 12:26.927 [SPEAKER_01]: And I always say I don't be people to like them necessarily. 12:26.947 --> 12:30.872 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the antagonist you might not have any way, but some do. 12:31.473 --> 12:36.400 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want my readers to understand why they are the way they are and why they're doing. 12:36.800 --> 12:41.687 [SPEAKER_01]: What they do, even if it's just at the end, 12:42.410 --> 12:43.211 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 12:43.431 --> 12:46.676 [SPEAKER_00]: And the antagonist is never the antagonist in their own minds. 12:46.736 --> 12:50.701 [SPEAKER_00]: They always, they hear out of their own stories, they always the protagonist of their own story. 12:51.122 --> 12:58.292 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's so difficult to write that as well, because you're really trying to withhold the identity of that character. 12:58.312 --> 12:58.572 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 12:58.832 --> 13:09.447 [SPEAKER_00]: So that the reader's actively trying to figure out who it is, while the main character's trying to figure out who it is, but it still needs to be authentic and it's a juggling act. 13:09.427 --> 13:11.109 [SPEAKER_00]: really, really well in the spokes. 13:11.129 --> 13:30.310 [SPEAKER_00]: So for those of you who are trying something like this, definitely take a look at how Hannah's done it because, you know, there's so many chapters that are from the antagonist perspective and we try to find clues and figure out who they are, which gives us enough so that we don't feel like we're being young to round the whole time and manipulated, which is so important. 13:30.611 --> 13:31.772 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 13:31.752 --> 13:36.877 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you said that your agent suggested you change Stella's occupation. 13:37.178 --> 13:49.130 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so interesting to me because her occupation felt so essential to the story and who she is because an occupation again is not just a, oh, so and so is a hairdresser or whatever. 13:49.190 --> 13:55.557 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, someone says a hairdresser because they like X, Y and Z, and this informs who they are. 13:55.617 --> 13:59.481 [SPEAKER_00]: So it was so clear to me why Stella was. 13:59.765 --> 14:04.952 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, a podcast host, and then that was something that came later, can I tell us a bit about that. 14:04.972 --> 14:05.393 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. 14:06.114 --> 14:18.652 [SPEAKER_01]: So originally originally Stella was going to have a company that provided fictional cold case murder boxes. 14:18.892 --> 14:26.683 [SPEAKER_01]: So again, basically, and I remember floating this idea to my agent to Carolyn and she said that 14:27.102 --> 14:48.615 [SPEAKER_01]: game in a, well, now it's a subscription box, you know, and then every still often you get clues or you can get the whole thing at the same time, it's a bit like clue, and she said, well, okay, but you know, it feels a bit convoluted to, it just, just a describe to convey this, could she not just be a podcaster? 14:48.875 --> 14:50.578 [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, oh yeah, 14:50.997 --> 14:52.602 [SPEAKER_01]: That makes way more sense. 14:53.103 --> 14:53.685 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's do that. 14:54.146 --> 14:57.616 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a really quick switch from early on. 14:58.078 --> 15:00.144 [SPEAKER_01]: So I hadn't outlined anything at this point. 15:00.224 --> 15:04.095 [SPEAKER_01]: It was just bouncing the idea around what a, you know, one paragraph idea. 15:04.447 --> 15:30.370 [SPEAKER_01]: some really glad that she suggested that and I hadn't already written goodness knows how much because I would have had to have you know undone that thread and it would have got all through the book so I'm I'm very happy that she's so smart and so brilliant and she said no boo don't do the subscription box that's silly just to make her a podcast host so when 15:31.261 --> 15:37.103 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I absolutely love that, but just have a word from my sponsor and then I want to come back to that. 15:38.585 --> 15:46.615 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, yeah, CC and I work in very much the same way, but the thing is I don't outline and send her the outline because I can't outline. 15:47.076 --> 15:55.486 [SPEAKER_00]: So I will write three or four chapters and then I'll send it to her and she'll also be like, why did we have to make this so complicated? 15:56.267 --> 15:59.191 [SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, why is this so simplified? 15:59.211 --> 16:04.137 [SPEAKER_00]: If this needs to be a bit more complicated and then you go back, but that's the wonderful part. 16:04.117 --> 16:10.189 [SPEAKER_00]: about managing to collaborate with an agent because sometimes we become so overly fixator. 16:10.269 --> 16:15.039 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that we feel like well, it has to be a subscription box at the SC. 16:15.420 --> 16:15.880 [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. 16:15.961 --> 16:17.504 [SPEAKER_00]: It's like, but it doesn't have to be. 16:17.864 --> 16:18.546 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 16:18.786 --> 16:19.267 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. 16:19.327 --> 16:25.720 [SPEAKER_01]: I found that so it's just so eye-opening and the collaborative 16:26.290 --> 16:33.902 [SPEAKER_01]: is wonderful because, you know, caring will see things or suggest things that I would never have thought of. 16:34.684 --> 16:50.830 [SPEAKER_01]: I find that brilliant, and with my editor too, and the changes that were made, and I can't go into this, I'm going to spoil a couple of things if I do, but I simply hadn't thought of, and it was the same with only one survives when I sent in the outline. 16:51.333 --> 16:52.494 [SPEAKER_01]: and we chatted about it. 16:52.554 --> 16:57.178 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she really was instrumental in shaping that outline in that book. 16:57.218 --> 17:02.604 [SPEAKER_01]: It was, it's just, you know, two brains are better than one and I love that part. 17:02.704 --> 17:20.260 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's so, I've really come to understand as I was outlining the next book that I really, really love the outlining stage, which is funny because you say you can't outline, it's guess if Jesus is out, it means you just start writing because I've just 17:20.932 --> 17:28.448 [SPEAKER_01]: It's short, and it's anything's possible, like, anything can happen, just whatever pops in my head, but yeah, that's good, or oh, no, I can't do that. 17:28.769 --> 17:34.080 [SPEAKER_01]: But I love that process, I find it so, it's so creative, it's so much fun. 17:34.465 --> 17:38.291 [SPEAKER_00]: But for our listeners are going, yeah, but you guys have got agents, we don't have agents. 17:38.611 --> 17:42.197 [SPEAKER_00]: This is why I keep saying, why you need better readers and writing friends. 17:42.377 --> 17:52.593 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, because again, it's just someone external who's not in your head, who's not 100% committed to something and who can just be more objective. 17:52.613 --> 17:58.161 [SPEAKER_00]: So you don't need an agent to do this, but if you are looking for an agent and 17:58.141 --> 18:07.616 [SPEAKER_00]: It's important for you to have an agent who you can collaborate with and work with editorially remember to make sure that that's a discussion you have with them down the line. 18:08.237 --> 18:25.144 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, something I want to ask you to add what 11 books now, yes, and what has been the most challenging aspect of the writing process for you and has that changed across the 11 novels or has it stayed sort of the same each time. 18:25.124 --> 18:26.525 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's definitely changed. 18:26.605 --> 18:29.608 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at the beginning, it was, can I do this? 18:30.989 --> 18:36.074 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've written a book, I've worked, shopped it, I've been to a writing group, you know, how on earth do I do this again? 18:36.114 --> 18:40.998 [SPEAKER_01]: That seems to have gone, I can't say it's gone away completely. 18:41.018 --> 18:43.821 [SPEAKER_01]: The self-doubt is always there, but it's just in a different form. 18:44.401 --> 18:46.763 [SPEAKER_01]: It's, can I pull this story off? 18:47.023 --> 18:48.985 [SPEAKER_01]: Can I write about a band? 18:49.145 --> 18:50.887 [SPEAKER_01]: I know nothing about the music industry. 18:51.067 --> 18:54.490 [SPEAKER_01]: It feels like a fun idea, but can I do this? 18:54.773 --> 19:00.038 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not can I write the book, it's can I write this book, can I write this particular story? 19:00.619 --> 19:01.860 [SPEAKER_01]: So that has changed. 19:02.821 --> 19:10.469 [SPEAKER_01]: I think at the beginning, I went into this career pretty blind because I didn't know what it all involved. 19:11.310 --> 19:19.359 [SPEAKER_01]: And it has changed, and it has morphed and with the rise of social media, which already was, of course, when my first book came out, but it wasn't as prevalent. 19:19.959 --> 19:22.722 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, TikTok wasn't a thing, 19:22.972 --> 19:25.455 [SPEAKER_01]: It was at round, but it wasn't so prevalent. 19:26.096 --> 19:30.763 [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of things that I didn't realize that I would be doing. 19:31.123 --> 19:40.396 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't realize that I would be designing graphics and honestly art was not my favorite subject just by singing, no thank you very much. 19:41.036 --> 19:42.999 [SPEAKER_01]: Really wasn't my strong suit. 19:43.019 --> 19:47.325 [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to dig into Canver and learn about that. 19:48.318 --> 19:53.264 [SPEAKER_01]: and then of course on social media, the algorithms change all the time and nobody knows what that's going on. 19:53.284 --> 19:54.205 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's a challenge. 19:54.946 --> 20:06.180 [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, the biggest challenge for me coming from a high-flying corporate background is, honestly, the lack of control over my career. 20:07.101 --> 20:15.051 [SPEAKER_01]: So, in the past, in my former career, the hard work, the more I put into it, 20:15.470 --> 20:23.487 [SPEAKER_01]: the bigger the rewards, whether it was promotions, whether it was in terms of salary, my corporate career was always on an awkward trajectory. 20:23.888 --> 20:27.115 [SPEAKER_01]: And I love that, and I wanted to feel successful. 20:27.195 --> 20:29.039 [SPEAKER_01]: I needed that recognition. 20:29.901 --> 20:35.453 [SPEAKER_01]: When it comes to publishing specifically releasing books, 20:35.990 --> 20:40.275 [SPEAKER_01]: that is completely out of my control for the very most part. 20:40.375 --> 20:46.663 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's not, it's not another Instagram post or a Facebook post that's that's going to blow something up to be honest. 20:46.683 --> 20:49.026 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, from me, I mean, from from me. 20:49.907 --> 20:58.777 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is difficult because one book doesn't necessarily do better than the next and better than the one before. 20:59.078 --> 21:04.444 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not necessarily on an upward trajectory. 21:05.234 --> 21:08.137 [SPEAKER_01]: I think now, my books are better than they were at the beginning. 21:08.758 --> 21:11.941 [SPEAKER_01]: First, I think I've evolved as a writer, I've been doing this for 10 years. 21:11.961 --> 21:15.445 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the voices are better, the structures better, I take risks. 21:16.306 --> 21:19.369 [SPEAKER_01]: I think, but you just never know what's going to hit. 21:20.030 --> 21:35.106 [SPEAKER_01]: And I find that, I find that, I can't really look at trouble for it, and it's going to come across as, but they're not knowing, and not really being able to influence that in any particular way, 21:35.575 --> 21:37.344 [SPEAKER_01]: write the best book you can, I suppose. 21:37.385 --> 21:39.938 [SPEAKER_01]: It is actually pretty hard. 21:39.958 --> 21:42.210 [SPEAKER_01]: How do you see that? 21:42.629 --> 22:06.730 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent, you know, everything in my life up until now has been the amount of effort I've put in equals, you know, what I get out of it and writing certainly there's that level of satisfaction, personal satisfaction, definitely there's that and, you know, what's frustrating, and I think I want to discuss this especially because there will be debut authors who come out who. 22:06.710 --> 22:08.552 [SPEAKER_00]: don't necessarily have a network. 22:08.652 --> 22:15.017 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't have a lot of right to friends or people who can help them blurb or who can help promote them. 22:15.037 --> 22:20.302 [SPEAKER_00]: They don't necessarily have good literary citizenship because they haven't built that up. 22:20.422 --> 22:24.866 [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas you, for example, do all your work with Hank Philippi Ryan. 22:25.147 --> 22:26.348 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, first chapter fun. 22:26.788 --> 22:28.730 [SPEAKER_00]: You've got a lot of right to friends. 22:29.370 --> 22:30.511 [SPEAKER_00]: I've got the podcast. 22:30.551 --> 22:32.073 [SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of right to friends. 22:32.193 --> 22:36.717 [SPEAKER_00]: You and our both are, I believe, very good literary 22:36.697 --> 22:38.719 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope so. 22:38.739 --> 22:40.361 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we love the other people. 22:40.401 --> 22:44.084 [SPEAKER_00]: We hug, whenever we can, we write the best books we can. 22:44.104 --> 22:46.747 [SPEAKER_00]: We not novices when it comes to promoting our work. 22:46.767 --> 23:00.520 [SPEAKER_00]: Like you say, we do the can, though, we do all the promotions we get everyone to help with cover reveals, and it's still really so up in the areas to whether the book lands or whether it doesn't, which is sometimes terrifying. 23:01.021 --> 23:04.324 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, and sometimes it's all about timing, you know? 23:04.304 --> 23:07.790 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, we can't know this because we can't brought the test. 23:07.810 --> 23:13.579 [SPEAKER_01]: But for example, one of my books in the past, if I released it two years from now, how would it fall? 23:13.599 --> 23:14.220 [SPEAKER_01]: Would it be worse? 23:14.240 --> 23:14.881 [SPEAKER_01]: Would it be better? 23:14.901 --> 23:16.684 [SPEAKER_01]: Would it be, it's just the timing? 23:16.724 --> 23:20.069 [SPEAKER_01]: What is the zeitgeist's pose at that moment in the subject? 23:20.830 --> 23:26.680 [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we know this, you know, we hand in a book a year before at least before it publishes. 23:27.120 --> 23:31.307 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what's going to happen a year from now. 23:31.540 --> 23:43.794 [SPEAKER_01]: we could write a book where the subject matter just fits with whatever's going on in the world and completely it blows up or conversely it could be the worst possible timing in the world. 23:44.394 --> 23:45.776 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what hasn't changed. 23:46.076 --> 23:50.401 [SPEAKER_01]: What hasn't changed over the past decade is how much I love writing. 23:51.402 --> 23:52.984 [SPEAKER_01]: That is my happy space. 23:53.344 --> 23:56.688 [SPEAKER_01]: I love going into my books. 23:56.768 --> 23:56.788 [SPEAKER_01]: I 23:57.224 --> 24:02.251 [SPEAKER_01]: always get the first skeleton draft out of the way as quickly as I possibly can because I hate that bit. 24:02.972 --> 24:04.093 [SPEAKER_01]: Hate is a strong word. 24:04.293 --> 24:06.436 [SPEAKER_01]: It's my least favorite bit. 24:06.456 --> 24:09.901 [SPEAKER_01]: And then going into it is and then I just I love that part. 24:10.001 --> 24:10.502 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it. 24:10.662 --> 24:11.904 [SPEAKER_01]: I love seeing the cover. 24:11.984 --> 24:13.125 [SPEAKER_01]: I love I love all of that. 24:13.506 --> 24:15.609 [SPEAKER_01]: But I get very, very nervous as I'm popped. 24:16.310 --> 24:22.458 [SPEAKER_01]: So this year, for the first time, I said to my husband, I don't want to be at home for pop day. 24:23.259 --> 24:24.140 [SPEAKER_01]: Can you take the day off? 24:24.160 --> 24:24.801 [SPEAKER_01]: We'll just go out. 24:25.017 --> 24:29.726 [SPEAKER_01]: and we went to Toronto Islands, which I've never done for that many of 15 years, can you believe? 24:29.787 --> 24:30.608 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd never be. 24:31.229 --> 24:32.071 [SPEAKER_01]: We'd never come up. 24:33.875 --> 24:36.239 [SPEAKER_01]: I know, ridiculous. 24:36.660 --> 24:43.454 [SPEAKER_01]: And off we went, I had a lovely day, and then I went to get a cake, and they asked me if I wanted anything written on it. 24:43.494 --> 24:46.620 [SPEAKER_01]: I said, yes, please write Happy Pop Day Hammer. 24:47.107 --> 25:03.500 [SPEAKER_01]: It was great because the pressure was up because this, once the book is out, you know, it was at my hands, you just have to see that the tips fall wherever they fall and and you work on the next book is always be writing, right? 25:03.520 --> 25:04.322 [SPEAKER_01]: Always be writing. 25:04.994 --> 25:08.899 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but it comes back time again to the love of writing. 25:09.199 --> 25:09.419 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 25:09.439 --> 25:15.847 [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why we ever picked up the pen in the first place, it's the reason why we escape to the world so that we do. 25:15.887 --> 25:20.793 [SPEAKER_00]: And there is so much that we don't have control over and so much in publishing is changing. 25:21.094 --> 25:21.394 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 25:21.414 --> 25:24.117 [SPEAKER_00]: And you lose editors and you lose imprints. 25:24.858 --> 25:28.463 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, from one week to the next, you know, culture what's happening. 25:28.803 --> 25:34.630 [SPEAKER_00]: But what you do know is that this is the 25:34.930 --> 25:44.544 [SPEAKER_00]: to play, to engage, to escape, and for our readers, I just never want you to lose sight of that, because the industry is filled with rejection. 25:44.724 --> 25:57.543 [SPEAKER_00]: Even at Hannah and my stage of our careers, hundreds of, so much rejection, a lot of disappointment, but the writing is what makes you happy and never, never, never lose the love of the writing. 25:57.724 --> 25:57.984 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 25:58.525 --> 26:01.008 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I completely, I completely agree. 26:01.028 --> 26:03.452 [SPEAKER_01]: I think we can get lost. 26:03.432 --> 26:33.372 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, the numbers and the pressure of doing all of this promotion and all of, I've got a goal to combat, but I've got to do this and sometimes I like just taking a step back and saying, you know what, I need to get back to feeling good about what I'm doing and that is being creative and that's really for me what it's all about and I hope readers love the books that I write 26:34.398 --> 26:35.059 [SPEAKER_00]: amazing. 26:35.619 --> 26:37.821 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for joining us once again. 26:37.861 --> 26:42.665 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm holding up the cover of the book for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, a killer motive. 26:42.986 --> 26:46.069 [SPEAKER_00]: We're linking to it on our bookshop.org affiliate page. 26:46.409 --> 26:51.113 [SPEAKER_00]: If you get the book there, you support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. 26:51.433 --> 26:53.655 [SPEAKER_00]: And please follow Hannah on socials. 26:53.856 --> 26:56.618 [SPEAKER_00]: She is such an excellent literary citizen. 26:56.998 --> 27:02.203 [SPEAKER_00]: So please follow her and share about her book news and engage with her there as well. 27:02.423 --> 27:04.185 [SPEAKER_00]: We look 27:04.165 --> 27:05.108 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to come back. 27:05.208 --> 27:05.690 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 27:05.830 --> 27:06.612 [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for today. 27:06.632 --> 27:07.214 [SPEAKER_00]: It was wonderful. 27:07.315 --> 27:07.736 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you. 27:07.776 --> 27:10.484 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's it for today's episode. 27:10.885 --> 27:12.631 [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us for next week's show. 27:12.671 --> 27:14.396 [SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, keep at it. 27:14.717 --> 27:17.365 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember, it just takes one yes.