[SPEAKER_00]: The RAPHA podcast episode 501 This is the RAPHA podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_04]: This week, I'm speaking with EMDR Therapist and attachment expert Deborah Westelman.
[SPEAKER_04]: We talked about attachment injuries that happened in childhood, the profound impact that these attachment wounds have on children's development.
[SPEAKER_04]: And how to create a safe and supportive environment for healing, creating collaboration between parents and therapists, so that children can have healthier attachments and better ability to regulate their emotions.
[SPEAKER_04]: Deborah spoke about the EMDR protocol she created called the Integrative Attachment Trauma Protocol for Children.
[SPEAKER_04]: It was a wonderful conversation and I'm very excited to share it with you.
[SPEAKER_04]: So let's dive right in to my conversation with Deborah Weaselman.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm your host, Laura Regan, and today I'm so happy to be with Deborah Weaselman.
[SPEAKER_04]: Deborah, thank you so much for being my guest on Therapy Chat today.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thanks for having me Laura, you're welcome.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm so excited to talk to you about your book coming out in the second edition very soon and really want to get into some nitty gritty clinical stuff about attachment injuries and trauma therapy with children and families.
[SPEAKER_04]: with and bringing EMDR into that.
[SPEAKER_04]: But before we get into it, let's just start off with you telling our audience a little bit about who you are and what you do.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, well I've been a therapist, middle health therapist for 35 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: I started life as a school teacher actually and did that and started my family and for two reasons I got really interested in attachment and trauma and mental health.
[SPEAKER_02]: One was I was teaching in a neighborhood where there was a lot of poverty and drug addiction and alcoholism and suicide and the kids I taught just had so many mental health issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I found myself, I just, I wanted to help the middle health issues more than I wanted to teach.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I went back to grad school and then our middle child came to us through adoption from Korea.
[SPEAKER_02]: And, and that also, he and I started reading a lot and then in grad school, I just really all of my whatever I had the option to choose my own
[SPEAKER_02]: thesis or term paper, topic it was always related to attachment and trauma.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I was just really geared that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I started working in therapy, I did like hypnotherapy training.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought that I would go that direction.
[SPEAKER_02]: But at one of my conferences for hypnotherapy, people started talking about this VMDR thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was back in 94.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, well, that's weird.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a weird thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Who would do that?
[SPEAKER_02]: And next thing I knew I found myself at a training in Denver with Francine Shapiro.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just my curiosity got the best of me and I had such a profound experience even myself in the practicum.
[SPEAKER_02]: that I just, you know, was just very, very excited by it.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in those days, I'm at the age now, I find myself saying back in the day, oh, well, back then, then we didn't have all, you know, we didn't have a lot of information about more the developmental trauma, the layers of trauma, attachment trauma.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so and kids just kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I really started doing a lot of work with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is just my bio, isn't it?
[SPEAKER_02]: And I've just taken off.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, it's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I started doing just a lot of work and figuring out how I could use the MDR with these particular kids because they, they were my love my passion.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they were also just very, you know, squarely in my, their possessions, they were sort of all over the place.
[SPEAKER_02]: They were so anxious and avoidant and their parents were frustrated and overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so.
[SPEAKER_02]: getting that child even to a point where they would be willing to do anything like this with me was a huge challenge.
[SPEAKER_02]: I started working on more preparation phasium deer work involving the parents in the family, really creating some attachment experiences and deepening those experiences.
[SPEAKER_02]: in my sessions.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I started speaking about it at the conferences.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then the next thing I knew, a Francine was calling me on the phone.
[SPEAKER_02]: She had heard one of my speeches and I thought, oh, no, what if I don't wrong?
[SPEAKER_02]: But she really encouraged me to keep developing this and keep
[SPEAKER_02]: And so then, so here I go into the bio, so I ended up doing some research and now I am an advanced trainer and also a trainer for the EMDR Institute of Francine Shapiro.
[SPEAKER_02]: You do their basic trainings, Carolyn Settle and I developed a basic training with a focus on kids, so we do that for the Institute, and then I have, yes, done research in this area of the Tattoo and trauma, and with some colleagues developed the integrative attachment trauma protocol for children that involves EMDR and family therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm very excited about that and and I work with adults as well and have a model with adults in a book that I've written along with my colleague and Potter and there are some parallels I will say because the book for adults is also working on their attachment attachment trauma and
[SPEAKER_02]: changing, helping adults find their authentic self, really restructure, the personality, and then create healthier attachments in their lives.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there are a lot of parallels in the two models in the two books.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's my love, it's my passion, just working with attachment and trauma and helping change people's lives and make these shifts at a deeper level.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think that it works.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's extremely helpful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, and I tell folks, one of the beautiful things about the MDR therapy and Francine used to see this is that you can encompass all of what you do.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have to throw out the things you already do.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now, people are incorporating MDR with family therapy as I do and with somatic work.
[SPEAKER_02]: and fair play when it comes to kids and other types of CPP and PCIT.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you can bring in everything that you already do and incorporate it with EMDR therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just becomes
[SPEAKER_02]: even richer.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we're really, I love the way those of us in the field that are, you know, working with trauma and attachment like you and other colleagues in myself, we are really deepening the changes, the shifts that people are making and, and
[SPEAKER_02]: and really enhancing the quality of their relationships which enhances the quality of life, of course.
[SPEAKER_04]: Now, yeah, I'm gonna say this to you, but I also want everyone who's listening here that what we're doing, how we're trying to change
[SPEAKER_04]: trauma, how we're trying to help people heal from trauma and attachment wounds does have so much potential for making our world a better place.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, the more it spreads, the more because you can see the way our world is so high conflict.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's like that fight energy.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's a lot of traumatized people and it's just cycle after cycle through generations.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you see it in our society now, in our culture.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, a lot of this chaos that we see, it does come down to people's early lives, early adverse experiences and attachment issues.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is how they manifest in this trust
[SPEAKER_02]: lack of compassion and empathy, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're really hopefully as this thing continues to become popular, you know, therapies become so much more popular.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know, even since like the pandemic through with TikTok and Instagram reels, all of a sudden, the acceptance of
[SPEAKER_04]: Grown, it's true, quite wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is, it is really wonderful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think it really over time, it really could have an impact on our society.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well, you know, I loved what you shared in your little bio.
[SPEAKER_04]: That was beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, it reminded me that when I, I learned about the average childhood experience to study when I was in grad school, because I was in grad school from 2007 through 2010.
[SPEAKER_04]: And that was when a lot of the findings were really beginning to be published was in 2007.
[SPEAKER_04]: I, I just became, I already wanted to work with children when I was in grad school, but I really became more encouraged that the earlier we intervene, the less someone's suffering has to be throughout their whole life.
[SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, people are always saying, oh, why do you want to go back and dig up this stuff from the past?
[SPEAKER_04]: And it's like,
[SPEAKER_04]: because it's still there and it's still impacting us continuously throughout our whole life.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm really grateful for what you're doing to help people understand more about basically that the behaviors that are being exhibited indicate need for intervention
[SPEAKER_04]: Can we talk a little bit about that first just to talk about the problem of how attachment impacts children or attachment wounds can impact children and you also talked before we started recording about substance exposure and neurodivergence and you know all of this impacts attachment relationships such early important points but can you go into depth about that
[SPEAKER_02]: Really important points, so one piece that's really important to know, for listeners to know.
[SPEAKER_02]: is that early attachment, especially those attachment wounds, early attachment trauma that happens, attachment wounds happen early, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Really, really early.
[SPEAKER_02]: And these are our most important stages of development.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the kids that we see who have these layers of attachment trauma,
[SPEAKER_02]: also have developmental deficits.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they have difficulty with reasoning and cognition and they have difficulty with emotion, regulation, great difficulty.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they have delay in social and emotional development.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you have a kid who's 13 who behave this maybe more like a seven or eight year old or a child who's 17 and they seem more like in the 11 year old and this can be strictly the result of developmental trauma has just interrupted those developmental trajectories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I believe one of the things that we're doing when we intervene with trauma and attachment and we make these repairs is we're helping kids get back on the right developmental trajectories.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're still starting from a place of lagging behind, but over time, they can catch up a little bit more and a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_02]: And luckily, we know that the brain, we now know, that the brain really continues with development until like age 30.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we have more time than we thought too.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think most of us that have raised kids
[SPEAKER_02]: saw can can look back and say, yeah, I saw my kids continue to evolve and mature through their 20s into their 30s.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that's, so that's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a nice thing.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, because you used to think it was kind of like getting 0 and 3 or you missed it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: So this is, this is good.
[SPEAKER_02]: This is
[SPEAKER_02]: The other thing that people have to realize with kids is they are trauma, manifest as externalized behaviors.
[SPEAKER_02]: They have internalizing symptoms, but those symptoms are externalized outwardly.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so often the kids that are seen as just naughty kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: just oppositional defiance and explosive disorder or what have you, they actually contact disorder.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, conduct disorder.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: they actually have developmental trauma underlying all of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Best ofander coke and Julian Ford and some others tried to get that diagnosis of developmental trauma disorder into the DSM-5 and it failed, but they're still working on it for the next round.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think for a lot of kids,
[SPEAKER_02]: because that diagnosis is going to really say it all for a lot of kids in terms of the externalizing symptoms that we see.
[SPEAKER_02]: And developmental trauma in my point of view is attachment trauma typically.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you can have trauma that happens outside of the household that it also has a big developmental impact, but oftentimes we're looking at attachment trauma and the thing about attachment trauma then is it also impacts kids capacity to trust and connecting and
[SPEAKER_02]: feel a sense of belonging, which also it affects their ability to feel a sense of self, a strong sense of who they are.
[SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of these kids, you know, you and I were talking, you do a lot of somatic work.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is beautiful because a lot of the kids, we say they're like little floating heads in our office, they're like cut off from their bodies, they're cut off from their bodies, and I think they're cut off from just a sense of self and being in the world.
[SPEAKER_02]: had a little boy I was talking with about.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was really, and this is real common.
[SPEAKER_02]: Really common.
[SPEAKER_02]: He was having a huge difficulty tolerating his mom, his adoptive mom, paying attention to other kids in the family.
[SPEAKER_02]: and he would have meltdowns when when her attention would veer off.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I and I and I said to him is is it I was trying to narrow down narrow down to the feeling and in the negative cognition because I thought we would target this as a trigger which is always very useful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said, so I said, is it like, I'm invisible?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm insignificant.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm unimportant.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm unloved.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he said that's not quite a sort of.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I said, is it like, I don't exist?
[SPEAKER_02]: And he just shouted, that's it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I thought, oh, how awful.
[SPEAKER_02]: What a horrible sense of a felt sense to walk around with that sense.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: And he was a child who had been removed at age two, because he was found wandering the streets.
[SPEAKER_02]: at night by himself at age two, and unfortunately at home, you know, it was severe drug addiction.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so the neglect had been just so severe.
[SPEAKER_02]: And of course, he was carrying that sense of aloneness.
[SPEAKER_02]: into every aspect of his life.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then these kids don't have a sense of connection to even an adoptive parent who is maybe loving on them or a foster parent who is trying to really give good care and connection, that sense of connection they can't hold onto it.
[SPEAKER_02]: If the parent, if their attention goes elsewhere
[SPEAKER_02]: or, you know, they go off to work, and they're off at school.
[SPEAKER_02]: The loneliness just comes back.
[SPEAKER_02]: That sense of, I don't exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm not here, I'm in loveable, I don't care.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think I'm not cared for all of those things.
[SPEAKER_02]: They are so stuck inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: Due to now we know, it's dysfunctional memory networks.
[SPEAKER_02]: that hold all of that really sad and scared hurt sense of things will never be any different.
[SPEAKER_02]: Always be this way.
[SPEAKER_04]: You feel so sad hearing this.
[SPEAKER_04]: Even though I know I know this, I think it was just so touching what you said about the I don't exist.
[SPEAKER_04]: The feeling is like,
[SPEAKER_04]: for a child to be able to have the words for that.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think even, you know, there's like a even though you weren't doing EMDR for the child, there's a deep resonance in the therapist being able to name something that they didn't have the words for.
[SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure that's something to do with my own history.
[SPEAKER_04]: Why I'm getting so choked up about it, but I just think it's really
[SPEAKER_04]: It's so sad, but it's like really beautiful, too, to help with this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, to help with it.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you say, to be able to help them put words to it, and to be seeing that way.
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, to be seeing and heard as somebody gets it, if somebody really...
[UNKNOWN]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think you're kind of feeling that way like, you know, it's something that is really, it has a, there are words for it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, it can be described and I think that's that's really important and you know what when you're speaking I'm thinking about you know you said like the little heads not connected to bodies and of course, you know when you named like the when their attention goes elsewhere and you went like
[SPEAKER_04]: their attention goes elsewhere, like they're focusing on another child as you use that example, but also it can be that most subtle perceiving of the other being preoccupied or just, you know,
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, like less, like felt sense of their availability, you know, that it's so, so subtle in children's nervous systems, especially those who are traumatized, are so exquisitely attuned to that faintest hint of I can't feel you, you know?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Dissociate or that they become completely dysregulated.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not, it's not a tantrum.
[SPEAKER_02]: If that happens, it's not, I'm gonna act out and be naughty.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's my system, can't tolerate this feeling.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's too much, it's too hard.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And like you say, it can be a parent's face, just in a little, in a preoccupied state.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, which is one of the adult attachment patterns, the preoccupied attachment pattern, which is an adult who knows how and wants to be affectionate and close, but the dysfunction on memory network.
[SPEAKER_02]: will light up and preoccupy the brain really and that that anxiety because they didn't get their needs.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so that anxiety, that preoccupation, they become distracted or worried or fearful
[SPEAKER_02]: it's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then I think the parent feels like, well, what I didn't do, I didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't do anything.
[SPEAKER_04]: right i want so badly to attach to this child why aren't they giving me the feedback that they're receiving what i'm trying to give them and you know it's i think something i kind of took from your book which i haven't fully read i always like to be really honest when i say that i'm not like i read it cover to cover but i definitely look through it
[SPEAKER_04]: And like, there's like that feedback loop between the parent and the child of, you know, the parent is feeling the rejection, which is bringing up what it felt like for them in some way that they may not even be consciously aware of.
[SPEAKER_04]: when they were little and then and also you talked about the loyalty, especially like with adoption or foster care, thinks it really confusing for the child too to be able to attach.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I mean, gosh, there's so many complexities happening within the relational dynamic.
[SPEAKER_04]: It's incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, I thus last the whole S chapter of the book is about doing if you get the luxury of being able to do some MDR work or other kind of trauma work with the parents that can be so beautiful because most parents really think want to be good parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: and they don't understand even their own straw reactions sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's so much we can do to help them with that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know I grew and changed over the years with my kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think they're very forgiving with me because I think I had a lot to learn and, and a lot of growing to do even when I started out, it was pretty young.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't think I was young, but back then, I don't know everybody was starting families in their early 20s and that seemed right and now a lot
[SPEAKER_02]: starting families until they're a little bit older and I think that's a good thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: A little more of a chance to grow and work on self and especially for those who get out there and do some therapy for themselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it can really change things in terms of raising our own kids so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my.
[SPEAKER_03]: If I had known then what I know now.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so much.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the, the model is called integrative attachment protocol for family therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's integrative, it's, it's a mouthful.
[SPEAKER_02]: Integrative attachment trauma protocol for children.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Okay, trauma protocol for
[SPEAKER_04]: So one thing that, you know, at the same time as we're talking about how complex and how subtle and I use the word mysterious with you when I first was talking that it's like there are mysteries of all the things that can be happening, but the model itself, you have a nice protocol and you have scripts and case examples here in the book and
[SPEAKER_04]: So can you talk a little bit about that?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, because it is, it is so hard as a clinician to navigate the complexity.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's like a jigsaw puzzle of a thousand pieces.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so it can get overwhelming and we can get overwhelmed and kind of lost in the weeds sometimes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So our own stuff does get in our own stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just get involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, it does.
[SPEAKER_02]: One of the pieces I talk about in the book, this is not the protocol so much as more therapist, overall demeanor and approach.
[SPEAKER_02]: I talk about mentalization and
[SPEAKER_02]: that capacity to reflect not only on what's going on inside of the child and inside of the parent, but also inside of ourselves as we move through sessions with our clients.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so important because we can manage when we are connected and aware, but if we're not
[SPEAKER_02]: Subconsciously, it can show on our faces and in our voices.
[SPEAKER_02]: But the protocol starts, there are three stages, and the first stage, and I will say, the three stages in the way we have it laid out, the organization right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: has been impacted by some of our colleagues in the Netherlands who have also done research with this protocol and they're continuing to do research with this protocol.
[SPEAKER_02]: They're in Amsterdam at the best school, Natalie Schlotten and Irma Heinz.
[SPEAKER_02]: and in and others.
[SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, a little shout out to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they came up with this beautiful sort of three stage models.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the first stage is meeting with parents one-on-one from two to six sessions, because
[SPEAKER_02]: That sounds maybe like a lot, but it's so vital to shift the parents' understanding of the child, to the trauma and attachment lengths, to
[SPEAKER_02]: really view.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, a lot of them come in knowing a little bit about it, but a lot of the child's behaviors are still seen as, oh, no, that's just, you know, a naughty behavior or all that's just a naughty behavior, but really.
[SPEAKER_02]: When we get down to the nitty-gritty and look at their child through like the EMDR history taking approach where we look at the present day problems and what are the triggers for those problems and what are maybe the underlying beliefs related to those triggers.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now let's trace them back to let's trace those negative beliefs and and the feelings that the child seems to have let's trace them back to the child's earliest life and let's look at the things that happen that may have led to
[SPEAKER_02]: those things, those feelings, those beliefs, and parents start to go, oh my gosh, I can see now the connection.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as we talk through all of this with the parent, then we also get a better
[SPEAKER_02]: and then often parents are able to develop rapport with us to a point where they can tell us a little bit about their own histories and what might be getting triggered for them as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: And often, and this is probably no surprise, but often parents end up then in their own individual therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: because they start recognizing, oh, like I thought I'd taken care of all that, but ha, you know what I think that stuff is getting triggered for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: And raising a child with attachment from a whether it's your biological child who had some early
[SPEAKER_02]: Trauma due to maybe you had an addiction early on or maybe you were suffering from your own PTSD or postpartum depression or what have you now
[SPEAKER_02]: They have a chance to repair, and they can see where these early events were really the foundation for this child's.
[SPEAKER_02]: development early on and now we have a chance to change all that and sometimes doing some internal work as a parent can really put that child on the fast track because the the healthier the parent really the the more progress we see more quick progress that we see.
[SPEAKER_02]: I feel like I kind of got lost in that dialogue there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I thought it was all very interesting.
[SPEAKER_04]: Anything you said so, but you were talking about, you know, the stages of the process.
[SPEAKER_04]: And you were in the part about, you know, why you have the conversation with the parents for those first two to six sessions, which I was right there with you and thinking, wow, how beautiful
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, I think I was thinking about the opportunity for the clinician to learn from the parent about what the child's early life was like that the child can't tell.
[SPEAKER_04]: They can't give you that information because they can't recall it.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, that from those early years.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're not willing to talk about it at this point.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and in fact, if we talk about it in front of the child at this point, it's triggering.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's too tricky.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so this is important because I think so often in the old way, I don't know if it was just my family or if this is the way that our culture talked about.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think it was cultural, but
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's like, oh, kids don't remember what happened.
[SPEAKER_04]: So they're fine.
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, they, they get over things really easily.
[SPEAKER_04]: And just because they don't show a reaction in the time when it's happening doesn't mean that they're not having a reaction.
[SPEAKER_04]: And if we are going through a traumatic experience and they're with us.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Having an experience too, and if we're traumatized, we can't necessarily be attuned to what they're going through in the experience, so we don't think they went through anything, because we only, if we know consciously what we went through, because the nature of traumas that it makes us go away from what feels overwhelming.
[SPEAKER_04]: So we were like, oh, yeah, that was a really bad day, but I mean, we're fine now, you know, and it's like,
[SPEAKER_02]: It's so true that they're still, I think, a widespread myth that what we don't remember can't impact us.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I wish, I wish that were true.
[SPEAKER_02]: I wish that were true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That would be a lot easier.
[SPEAKER_02]: It would be a lot easier, a lot easier.
[SPEAKER_02]: And some of the kids, too, that I've seen that had kind of the biggest behaviors actually have been kids who had early medical trauma because early medical trauma.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm talking, you know, like Nick you and
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you really early being born premature being born premature.
[SPEAKER_02]: So for that baby that infant having poked and prodded in your very earliest experiences of life.
[SPEAKER_04]: when your nervous system isn't even fully developed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even fully developed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: And then your caregivers aren't there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Caregivers aren't there.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're isolated.
[SPEAKER_02]: What that does to your nervous system?
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_02]: And so often, if there's been a painful circumstance early on, oh, even colleague, a really bad colleague,
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you've got a mother soothing, trying to comfort soothing, comforting, but it doesn't work because colleague is colleague and that baby doesn't know that that mother is trying to help for all that baby knows that mother's causing it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the mother and the pain get linked in the memory networks in the nervous system.
[SPEAKER_02]: which is so sad for people.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think so many people have been family to have been impacted by this kind of... You know, Collick is something that you, it's just a little word.
[SPEAKER_04]: You don't hear that much about it unless your baby has it or someone you know deals with it, but it's like destructive.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, to the sleep, to the well-being of the whole family, the distress and the feeling of competence of the mother and primary caregivers.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Everybody becomes traumatized, absolutely.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then there's postpartum depression, and sometimes that's brought on by that kind of a situation.
[SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes it's purely hormonal, but it has so much impact.
[SPEAKER_02]: And birth trauma.
[SPEAKER_02]: No fault of the mother that depression is depression.
[SPEAKER_02]: So let's go back to the three stages.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's take this apart a little bit more.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
[SPEAKER_02]: But it's more preparation phase work.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it involves the parents throughout the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now, I will say there are cases where we have like teenagers who don't want parents involved.
[SPEAKER_02]: We have to maybe spend more time with those teenagers individually before we can bring the parents in with them, but that's ultimately the goal.
[SPEAKER_02]: in the preparation phase stage 2, is we are trying to create an environment
[SPEAKER_02]: for that child, that is secure, that is safe, a holding space that involves the parents, and now we have the parents, you know, on board, hopefully understanding what we're trying to do and why, and we're trying to create a sense for that child that we're all a team working together, all on the child's side.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it's not about how are we going to fix these
[SPEAKER_02]: it's about we are all working together to help you feel better, to help you feel safer, to feel trust, and to feel loved.
[SPEAKER_02]: And now I have the parents on board, hopefully understanding that those goals
[SPEAKER_02]: those are going to make a difference in the child's behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, we want to improve the child's behavior.
[SPEAKER_02]: But that's the way to go to get there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And involving the EMDR piece of it for those listeners who are EMDR therapists, we create experiences of closeness in the session and comfort
[SPEAKER_02]: through we have an exercise like messages of love exercise where the parents are prompted to talk about things they most enjoy about the child or memory of when they first met the child and when they first fell in love with that child even if it was a newborn born to them.
[SPEAKER_02]: memories of times they felt really proud of the child, things they enjoy doing with the child, future hopes and dreams for the child.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we prop the parent and we prepare the parent ahead of time.
[SPEAKER_02]: They know what we're going to ask.
[SPEAKER_02]: And some parents have their notes all written down.
[SPEAKER_02]: They really want to make sure they have the right things to say.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the child typically is cuddled up with a parent at this point, but if they're not ready for that, that's not okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Or that's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't force it.
[SPEAKER_02]: We don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: insist on eye contact or anything, we just want the child to be comfortable.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we also add some slow bilateral stimulation typically, a form of bilateral stimulation that is comforting,
[SPEAKER_02]: So it might be strokes.
[SPEAKER_02]: It might be swaying side to side.
[SPEAKER_02]: It might be these little buzzies that we use that kids like some of kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the kids like some of the kids don't.
[SPEAKER_02]: But if they're if they're fond of the buzzies, we'll run those just really slow and soft.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we want to do.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to apply for a bilateral stimulation that is really
[SPEAKER_02]: and create this just really fantastic close experience for the child, and that's just one of the many activities that we have that we do that we've laid out for therapists to do in these preliminary sessions.
[SPEAKER_02]: We also do a lot of work just around communication.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we do something called the domino activity where we stand up a bunch of dominoes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we have a child knocked down the dominoes and we look at it.
[SPEAKER_02]: look at how one domino falling over knocks down all these other domino's until the final domino falls over and we say, you know, this is a lot like what happens in our holes.
[SPEAKER_02]: There will be some trigger.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then some action or some thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then somebody else gets triggered by that.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then every pretty soon, everybody's got their dominoes falling down, leading to a big eruption and maybe a big conflict or a meltdown or some misbehavior or maybe it's running off out of the house, whatever it might be.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we put them on the wall and we start kind of charting out, you know, everybody's dominance, everybody that was sort of a part of this, this sort of crisis event that happened and everybody gets to look at, you know, like with a microscope.
[SPEAKER_02]: what were my triggers, what were my negative beliefs, what were my body sensations, what were my actions, and see where the the dominoes all kind of collided with one another's dominoes, and then everybody gets to talk about where they could have pulled out a domino.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we stand up the dominoes and pull out a domino and we look, oh look, if you knock down the dominoes, they stop falling down if you pull out a domino or two.
[SPEAKER_02]: The other dominoes don't fall.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we everybody gets to look at where they might have pulled out their dominoes and helped to prevent this acute situation in the home.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we want everybody to be collaborative and we all work as a team and and therapists often at doing this work.
[SPEAKER_02]: We often self disclose a lot to make everybody comfortable.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, hey, I have gotten triggered in my home, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I have had those big feelings and I have raised my voice and I have done things that I'm not proud of.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we want to help everybody feel like this isn't about who was bad, who was wrong.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's about how can we all work together and do our part and support each other.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's a whole collaborative effort.
[SPEAKER_02]: But we do bring in the EMDR piece of it with just the slow BLS to deepen the good feelings and help kids really get the good stuff and the good messages down, down, down is a deeper level.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stage 3 is where we approach the trauma metromas.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we can do that in a very gentle, gentle way.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we start by actually we start by doing a little EMDR processing of some triggers just to get kids used to the faster BLS and processing.
[SPEAKER_02]: a therapeutic story that provides the adaptive information they need and touches on the traumas very lightly with a lot of good, helpful adaptive information.
[SPEAKER_02]: And the first sort of foray into the traumas is with their story, and it's a very gentle story, and we add bilateral stimulation throughout the reading of the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we might read it two or three or four times until the child is just comfortable with their story overall.
[SPEAKER_02]: And this might include some pre-verbal information, some information about their birth, some information about, you know, early medical trauma or
[SPEAKER_02]: reliquishment for adoption, or maybe there was early neglect in a home where there was a lot of drug addiction or whatever it might be, but we also give explanation about that.
[SPEAKER_02]: In this story, a little simple explanation, we never want to demonize biological parents.
[SPEAKER_02]: We always want to, also, if this is a child that has been removed from a biological moment, we want to also present those biological parents as just human and having problems that probably started maybe in their early life.
[SPEAKER_02]: or a problem because of drugs and so we have this gentle story that we read and then later we can go back and target specific points in the story and the picture that the child has in their brain about that place in the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Even if it's a preverbal trauma, they'll have a picture
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we can go in and target that with more standard protocol, but with a lot of support with parents in the room, really supporting them, and I make sure we make sure that maybe we're just focused on just a little piece that's a little easier to work on, sometimes it's, you know,
[SPEAKER_02]: just just before the really hard event happened.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we work on maybe some easier pieces before we get into some harder pieces.
[SPEAKER_02]: And all of this makes it so much more doable.
[SPEAKER_02]: I didn't, you know, I didn't know when I was first trained in MDR therapy.
[SPEAKER_02]: I remember having it,
[SPEAKER_02]: a young lady who actually said she was 16.
[SPEAKER_02]: She was in foster home.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said, I want to work on my sexual abuse.
[SPEAKER_02]: I had just been trained.
[SPEAKER_02]: She said, I want to try that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to try it.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I went in and I just started doing amdare with her on her trauma.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she got flooded.
[SPEAKER_02]: And she said, nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_02]: Stop.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to do it.
[SPEAKER_02]: I change my mind.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I feel so, so badly about that now, you know, if I'd had more tools and if I'd involved her foster parents, if I'd known how to prepare her, if I'd known how to create a secure loving environment for her in my office,
[SPEAKER_02]: I could have worked on that and I didn't get to because I did it wrong or I did I didn't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: You didn't know.
[SPEAKER_04]: I will say she got to tell you no and it has to stop and you did.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: That in a way as a specialist in sexual trauma I have to say that's an important part even though the flooding was negative.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we continued working together.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I never thought about that, honestly, and I appreciate that.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're welcome.
[SPEAKER_04]: A little negative cognition to work with for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that was my three stages in a nutshell.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, it sounds really beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: It sounds so beneficial and hopeful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, like, I can imagine, you know, there's so, there's so many more complexities in practice than when we're talking about a model, but true.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's true.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, every family has different complexities.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've had parents come in.
[SPEAKER_02]: Also, I will say, who have said, I kind of,
[SPEAKER_02]: laid it out for them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And they've said, no, not for us.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't what we want.
[SPEAKER_02]: And okay, that's okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not for everybody, but I think when parents are wanting that, maybe treatment for their child, it can be, it can be really beautiful.
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's yeah, there's complexities to with yeah kids who have fetal alcohol exposure or kids with neurodivergence and kids with more dissociation need more preparation work, but I will tell you this with dissociation the parent child connection attachment relationship is.
[SPEAKER_02]: key.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an antidote to dissociation.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is an antidote.
[SPEAKER_02]: Kids dissociate when there's nowhere to run, no one to run to.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if they discover that even with my biggest feelings and my biggest memories, I'm safe here with a parent who loves me and cares for me and I
[SPEAKER_02]: feel that connection, the dissociation just comes down.
[SPEAKER_02]: But there are other things we do to, we want to make sure the parent is really reinforcing the child when they're in there.
[SPEAKER_02]: What I call the front brain biggest kid's self,
[SPEAKER_02]: really reinforcing that and there's work that we do around helping those like little parts of self find safety on the inside.
[SPEAKER_02]: and we do healing work for those little or parts on the inside with those kids and that is really really healing for dissociation as well and stabilizing for those kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: We want to get them to a place where even an eight-year-old can actually provide a caring, safe, loving space for the baby
[SPEAKER_02]: with the help of the parents so it's when when the parents are part of it because they're still just kids you know they're still just yeah they need somebody with an external neo cortex for that exactly yes yes yeah when the parents are a part of it oh gosh there's so much we can do even in just working with those little parts.
[SPEAKER_02]: We create little safe places for the little parts.
[SPEAKER_02]: We draw them and make them in the sanctuary.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then we encourage the parents to talk about caring for the little or ones in the safe place.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'll tell you what, if the parents were the ones who were sort of the problem in the child's life early on, it gives them a chance to make up for that.
[SPEAKER_02]: and to really repair.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they can do like imagery work or with some kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's more centrey or drawings, but they can help create safety for the little part that maybe got left alone too much because mom and dad were drinking or something along those lines
[SPEAKER_02]: through imagery and drawings, and we can utilize the bilateral stimulation again to deepen that felt sense of care for the little one on the inside for the child and it's so healing, it's so healing, for the child.
[SPEAKER_04]: Wow, that's beautiful.
[SPEAKER_04]: I've never thought of nor heard of doing parts work in childhood that way, but that's that's so sweet.
[SPEAKER_04]: Like when I think of it, I can just, you know, children can be so obviously imaginative and creative and.
[SPEAKER_04]: you know, tender toward younger children or animals, and that's really beautiful to think about.
[SPEAKER_04]: And this is just also hopeful for families who really want to help their kids.
[SPEAKER_04]: feel better and you know it takes a lot of courage and strength for the adults to be able to look at their own behavior and acknowledge maybe there are some things that I need to do differently or some things that I wish I could have handled differently now that I know
[SPEAKER_02]: To be able to get a chance to repair during during childhood is beautiful too because you know, yeah, yeah, which, you know, again, back to you, it mentioned the aces.
[SPEAKER_02]: the Avers childhood experiences study.
[SPEAKER_02]: If we can get kids on the right, trajectory early and help them heal, heal those little parts of early in life, they don't have to get on that path of, what they found in them.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then,
[SPEAKER_02]: ACEs was health issues and risk of earlier death because of use of drugs and alcohol and smoking cigarettes and eating unhealthy foods because that's how we try to take care of ourselves.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's how we try to take care of our younger parts when we're grown-ups and we're unhealed.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: In the absence of
[SPEAKER_04]: You know, more effective strategies, we reach for what makes us feel better in the moment, if no one else is there.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, gosh.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is so great.
[SPEAKER_04]: Deborah, I've really enjoyed talking with you.
[SPEAKER_04]: And I really wish we had more time, but we've already gone beyond what I asked you to give me in time-wise.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I know we have to wrap up.
[SPEAKER_04]: Where can people learn more about your model or the training and also find your book?
[SPEAKER_04]: What, where can we go?
[SPEAKER_02]: Deborah Westelman.com is a great resource for you because there you can find my books.
[SPEAKER_02]: There's also the parent book and the second edition of the parent book comes out in December.
[SPEAKER_02]: There are also, if you're parents listening, there are a lot of articles I've written I have a blog, so a lot of articles that might interest parents as well, and then I have four therapists that have the trainings are up there.
[SPEAKER_02]: on that website?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you're not trained in EMDR and you're interested in being trained, I also have a link to the EMDR Institute training.
[SPEAKER_02]: EMDR training that has the child supplemental material.
[SPEAKER_02]: So that might be of interest to you as well.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wonderful.
[SPEAKER_04]: Well,
[SPEAKER_04]: I will put links in the show notes to all of those things and I really enjoyed getting to meet you today and I hope we can stay connected.
[SPEAKER_04]: I love to talk to you again if you ever want to.
[SPEAKER_04]: This has been just a really rich conversation and deeply I think emotionally and analytically provoking for me.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would I would love to again.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's been it's been a really good conversation.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just have loved the I don't know.
[SPEAKER_02]: Just the feel of it with you.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been so lucky.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_04]: I always feel like if we were at a dinner party.
[SPEAKER_04]: This is what I would be.
[SPEAKER_04]: I feel like.
[SPEAKER_04]: Oh, and then why don't what about this?
[SPEAKER_04]: And what about that?
[SPEAKER_04]: Anybody meets me in real life.
[SPEAKER_04]: That's how I am.
[SPEAKER_04]: But most of our talk about this.
[SPEAKER_04]: So.
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, what are those dinner party guests that I don't like the small talk.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I go to the deeps.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you I can tell you're the same way.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, well, thank you again for sharing some time with us today and it can't be to share this with everyone.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPongCast.com.