WEBVTT 00:02.180 --> 00:02.661 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, guys. 00:02.781 --> 00:04.843 [SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Christian parenting podcast. 00:04.944 --> 00:07.947 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm your house, Steph Therling, and I am so glad that you're with me today. 00:07.967 --> 00:12.093 [SPEAKER_00]: I am joined by Vicky Courtney, and she is an author, a speaker, and a seasoned mom. 00:12.674 --> 00:18.741 [SPEAKER_00]: And she is talking all about the shifting roles of motherhood and the importance of finding identity and Christ beyond parenting. 00:19.422 --> 00:29.873 [SPEAKER_00]: Vicki shares her journey from raising young kids to embracing the empty nestiers, and she offers really honest insights into the common struggles that a home mom's face like gill burnout in the pressure to do it all. 00:30.393 --> 00:41.304 [SPEAKER_00]: So together we really explore why prioritizing self-care isn't selfish, how investing in marriage strengthens the family in why moms of all generations need more grace and support than ever before. 00:42.085 --> 00:48.215 [SPEAKER_00]: Vicki's book is called Motherhood is not your highest calling, and it touches on all of this and more, so make sure that you check it out. 00:48.375 --> 00:49.056 [SPEAKER_00]: I loved it. 00:49.136 --> 00:51.019 [SPEAKER_00]: I found it so encouraging and helpful. 00:51.640 --> 00:56.087 [SPEAKER_00]: This is just a really refreshing conversation that you don't want to miss, and so I hope that you like. 01:03.088 --> 01:05.490 [SPEAKER_00]: Becky, welcome to the Christian parenting podcast. 01:05.671 --> 01:06.752 [SPEAKER_00]: If anything, thanks for having me. 01:06.972 --> 01:11.136 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I really like to just get going right away and getting to know my guests. 01:11.196 --> 01:17.142 [SPEAKER_00]: So can you just tell us a little about yourself, tell us about your family, tell us what you do, all the things that are important to you. 01:17.601 --> 01:18.001 [SPEAKER_01]: goodness. 01:18.101 --> 01:25.947 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I, um, I've been in ministry for a while, but I'm at a point in these empty nest years. 01:25.967 --> 01:29.850 [SPEAKER_01]: And my husband just recently retired that things have slowed down. 01:29.910 --> 01:32.632 [SPEAKER_01]: I know that sounds really, she had like a lot of stuff. 01:33.473 --> 01:34.755 [SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like? 01:34.815 --> 01:36.457 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that is a reward. 01:36.517 --> 01:38.679 [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's what you guys have to look forward to. 01:38.879 --> 01:43.345 [SPEAKER_01]: But I've got three grown children all married delightful spouses. 01:43.465 --> 01:46.148 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, when you pray for your children's spouses. 01:46.268 --> 01:49.612 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I might have been I could not have ever imagined that 01:50.773 --> 01:53.958 [SPEAKER_01]: We could love these spouse, these inlaw children anymore. 01:54.198 --> 01:55.960 [SPEAKER_01]: And so keep praying that prayer. 01:56.521 --> 01:56.862 [SPEAKER_01]: It works. 01:57.082 --> 02:00.987 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we are on actually our 10th grandchild at this point. 02:01.108 --> 02:05.994 [SPEAKER_01]: So 10 grandkids, everyone lives fairly close by within the state of Texas, which is a big state. 02:06.575 --> 02:19.604 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but yeah, fairly close by, and so that consumes bulk of our time, and then my husband and I traveling and doing all the fun things that you have to look forward to when you are in these years. 02:19.904 --> 02:25.608 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so ministry wise got started way back in the, uh, guess the not, he's, I had an event for 02:26.268 --> 02:34.196 [SPEAKER_01]: mothers and daughters for many years partnered with life way to bring that event all over the country and had a lot of books come out during that time period. 02:35.176 --> 02:50.151 [SPEAKER_01]: Parenting usually parenting emphasis, Bible studies and books, five conversations you must have with your daughter, five conversations you must have with your son, and then on this side of it, I really felt the Lord was leading me to right to your generation of moms. 02:50.851 --> 02:58.077 [SPEAKER_01]: and it's basically the book I wish had been around when I was deep in the throws of raising my children. 02:58.237 --> 03:02.420 [SPEAKER_01]: The book I think that would have been healing for my generation. 03:02.620 --> 03:07.644 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in a lot of ways it's kind of that it came from a place of just 03:08.004 --> 03:22.977 [SPEAKER_01]: several factors that led to some wake-up calls, where I realized that if we're not careful motherhood can become an idol, so in looking back now on this side of it, I want to be that cheerleader to your generation of moms. 03:23.618 --> 03:30.984 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and sure maybe those things that I wish that I'd known a little bit sooner, and that I hear many of my mom friends say as well. 03:31.305 --> 03:33.547 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's about it. 03:34.683 --> 03:35.343 [SPEAKER_00]: in that show. 03:35.924 --> 03:46.789 [SPEAKER_00]: I love that so much and I just love that you've spent so much of your life ministering to women into moms and now you're talking about the things that you wish that you had heard so I am kind of curious. 03:46.809 --> 04:00.437 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you've touched on us a tiny bit but a little deeper like how from being a young mom to now a mom of adult married kids and a grandmother how has your perspective on motherhood changed from then to now? 04:00.577 --> 04:02.258 [SPEAKER_01]: Wow I mean that's a loaded question and 04:03.258 --> 04:07.181 [SPEAKER_01]: I love it because it's really in working through that. 04:07.321 --> 04:18.830 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I would say that if you'd asked me that 15 years ago, you know, my answer would have been different because it's like you're you're in the thick, it's really what led me to write this book stuff. 04:18.930 --> 04:29.498 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's, you know, I look back on those years and my generation, particularly, I feel like there was this pressure of this push to put our children at the absolute center of our lives. 04:29.838 --> 04:35.839 [SPEAKER_01]: We heard that just that mantra a lot that, you know, motherhood is your highest calling. 04:36.059 --> 04:38.520 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I went into it with that mindset. 04:38.620 --> 04:50.603 [SPEAKER_01]: I even share in one of my chapters how, you know, I plucked a parenting book off my shelf, a not long ago and started thumbing through it and instantly got my eyes landed on that phrase. 04:50.683 --> 04:54.964 [SPEAKER_01]: Motherhood is perhaps your highest calling kind of grumbled under my breath. 04:55.344 --> 04:59.145 [SPEAKER_01]: Then in full disclosure, I should say that book was a book I had written years ago. 05:00.045 --> 05:03.767 [SPEAKER_01]: one of, is actually my first book that I had come out I think in 2004. 05:03.947 --> 05:23.018 [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm part of the problem, you know, but I sincerely believed I was being taught that it was very much a component of this idea of biblical womanhood that we hear that phrase all the time, but, you know, that our worth, our woman's worth, the woman's identity is tied directly to marriage and motherhood. 05:23.398 --> 05:29.324 [SPEAKER_01]: And then as I began to unpack that in the later years of parenting, my children. 05:29.384 --> 05:33.408 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'd say really, you know, with the last one leaving the nest, that is a shock. 05:33.648 --> 05:42.376 [SPEAKER_01]: But realizing that no one in the Bible does it actually say that a woman's highest purpose is motherhood or marriage for that matter. 05:42.596 --> 05:42.836 [SPEAKER_01]: So, 05:43.517 --> 05:49.942 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been, you know, on a journey, I've always tried to write from that place of, hey, you know, I'm in the trenches with you right now. 05:50.002 --> 06:00.250 [SPEAKER_01]: I am not coming to you as some sort of expert because I somehow managed to come up with the formula to raising perfect little Christian children. 06:00.511 --> 06:02.272 [SPEAKER_01]: I never wanted to come across that way. 06:02.332 --> 06:02.932 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, um, 06:04.173 --> 06:10.659 [SPEAKER_01]: I always made it abundantly clear that, you know, for me, I'm writing from that place of, you know, hey, we're in this together. 06:10.779 --> 06:16.484 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're, we're, we're, we're something you learn the hard way and, you know, other things come, might, may come a bit easier. 06:16.685 --> 06:17.806 [SPEAKER_01]: But this book is no different. 06:17.986 --> 06:26.814 [SPEAKER_01]: It is, I would say what does make it different is that I say with intentionality and the introduction, this is not a parenting book. 06:27.334 --> 06:29.417 [SPEAKER_01]: you moms have plenty coming at you. 06:29.437 --> 06:32.501 [SPEAKER_01]: You have so many voices in your ear every day. 06:32.561 --> 06:38.909 [SPEAKER_01]: From the moment you get up to the moment you layer head to rest if you get to rest even in the evenings for those with the little ones. 06:39.090 --> 06:42.835 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I wanted to to bring a book that is 06:43.475 --> 06:51.598 [SPEAKER_01]: really geared to mom and her needs, of course, bringing a scripture into that, talking a lot about self-care. 06:51.638 --> 07:07.983 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's a whole chapter because I think a lot of times once again, I know in my generation, we felt guilty and you may too for wanting to have time to yourself, or wanting to spend a weekend on a girl's trip, instead of in the trenches, or take some time off 07:12.964 --> 07:17.387 [SPEAKER_01]: it is what led me to write the book, but still unpacking a lot of it to be honest with you. 07:17.587 --> 07:17.827 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:18.108 --> 07:19.669 [SPEAKER_00]: And probably I always will be too, right? 07:19.749 --> 07:19.989 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 07:20.329 --> 07:20.569 [SPEAKER_01]: Right. 07:20.609 --> 07:20.809 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 07:21.030 --> 07:22.691 [SPEAKER_00]: But I do think about that a while. 07:22.791 --> 07:26.033 [SPEAKER_00]: I think as my oldest is in eighth grade. 07:26.113 --> 07:31.417 [SPEAKER_00]: So entering high school next year, I think like while the years that I'm actively parenting him are winding down. 07:32.097 --> 07:32.277 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 07:32.417 --> 07:34.679 [SPEAKER_00]: And then I mean, my clothes are really close to nature. 07:34.699 --> 07:45.627 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just going to happen real fast like one after another and I do think like if motherhood is our absolute high is calling and the most important thing we're going to do in our lives. 07:45.907 --> 07:47.689 [SPEAKER_00]: It's really a small part of my life. 07:48.587 --> 07:48.787 [SPEAKER_00]: Right. 07:49.588 --> 07:56.714 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I will be a mom for the rest of my life, but actively parenting, like it's actually a really small chunk of my life. 07:56.874 --> 08:06.082 [SPEAKER_00]: And so when you think about it that way, it's kind of terrifying because I love this part of my life, and it's not to say it's not significant or a very holy and high calling. 08:06.422 --> 08:11.046 [SPEAKER_00]: But what is like the truth of what our ultimate calling would be then? 08:11.226 --> 08:11.707 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure, sure. 08:11.767 --> 08:14.169 [SPEAKER_01]: Why, you know, I share about how one would be first of all. 08:14.649 --> 08:18.832 [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus went asked, you know, by a scribe, what is the greatest commandment? 08:18.892 --> 08:24.395 [SPEAKER_01]: He very quickly states, well, to love the Lord your God with your heart, soul, mind, and strength to love your neighbors yourself. 08:24.516 --> 08:30.519 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that there was no sort of unless you are a woman and then your calling is different. 08:30.579 --> 08:33.141 [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't give us a footnote and a dendom to that. 08:33.781 --> 08:39.845 [SPEAKER_01]: I think also, you know, second Corinthians that lays out our, our, our job if you will 08:44.328 --> 08:54.875 [SPEAKER_01]: if you're a male, you're called to be an ambassador with, you know, to take the ministry to gospel ministry of reconciliation and preach it to your to the nation, but you start with your home, right? 08:54.975 --> 09:00.359 [SPEAKER_01]: And your neighborhood and on the bleachers and at the ball games and at the extracurricular activities and such. 09:00.719 --> 09:02.640 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I've always loved that passage. 09:02.721 --> 09:04.702 [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when I became a new believer in 09:05.262 --> 09:13.530 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't until my junior year in college and I was agnostic actually at the time, and Christianity appealed to me, and I hit the ground running. 09:13.570 --> 09:14.131 [SPEAKER_01]: I was one of these. 09:14.211 --> 09:15.592 [SPEAKER_01]: I just did a 180. 09:15.792 --> 09:23.860 [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't get enough information on what is it to be a Christian, and was married, you know, a couple years after that, and had my first child. 09:23.880 --> 09:26.182 [SPEAKER_01]: 13 months after I was married. 09:26.842 --> 09:36.992 [SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I jumped in wanting to be the best wife, the best mother that I possibly could be, and believing that this was my ultimate and highest calling. 09:37.352 --> 09:50.625 [SPEAKER_01]: And so as I began to unpack scripture and discover, okay, you know, well, here are very clearly says in second Corinthians that we are given, we are given a ministry, you know, to be ambassadors. 09:51.245 --> 10:04.668 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, I've posed the question in a chapter where I talk more about identity in this book, do you view yourself first and foremost as more of a mother or a minister? 10:05.028 --> 10:10.249 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a really revealing question when you think about, okay, what's my answer to that? 10:10.349 --> 10:17.370 [SPEAKER_01]: Because a lot of us truth be told would say, yeah, I would say, you know, a mother first and then a minister. 10:17.790 --> 10:32.253 [SPEAKER_01]: When really if we get in the right order, what God is telling us in his word is know you're called to be a minister first and an aspect of your ministry, a very key aspect at that when your children are in the home, is to your children in ministering to them. 10:32.613 --> 10:36.914 [SPEAKER_01]: But I just thought that was so helpful as I began to unpack it myself. 10:37.014 --> 10:41.595 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say stuff that for me it was like a lot of this, I wrote about a lot of this. 10:41.655 --> 10:42.635 [SPEAKER_01]: Like I had the, um, 10:44.275 --> 11:06.680 [SPEAKER_01]: acknowledge of this, I would encourage my fellow moms who were reading my books that were I've written a lot about worth and identity, and I look back and I'm like, I think it was really writing that a lot of the times to myself, because I was struggling to believe that, you know, a couple of huge wake-up calls for me that I was possibly getting this in the wrong order 11:14.763 --> 11:23.130 [SPEAKER_01]: quickly I began to feel like a loss of purpose and even, you know, a loss of identity, like who am I now? 11:23.491 --> 11:36.663 [SPEAKER_01]: If I'm not the mom who is shuddling my kids around to their activities and looking forward to Friday night lights on the weekend and the ball games and all the things and then it comes to a screeching halt. 11:37.043 --> 11:40.486 [SPEAKER_01]: And you're really left to unpack, okay, now who am I now? 11:40.866 --> 11:42.607 [SPEAKER_01]: So that was a huge wake-up call. 11:42.647 --> 11:47.591 [SPEAKER_01]: And mind you, I was crazy busy during this era of my life. 11:47.691 --> 11:52.374 [SPEAKER_01]: I was traveling and speaking, you know, probably two weekends out of the year. 11:53.855 --> 12:11.770 [SPEAKER_01]: writing books and running a ministry and yet still I felt this emptiness in this this losses sense of loss of purpose and the other big wake-up call was a few years later after the last child left the nest and my daughter had two sons and a daughter daughters in the middle. 12:12.070 --> 12:17.095 [SPEAKER_01]: And she's married, been married about a year at the time, and they began to try to start a family. 12:17.395 --> 12:24.422 [SPEAKER_01]: And a year or so into that, she shared with me that she had been diagnosed with unexplained infertility. 12:24.702 --> 12:31.088 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was just a heart-breaking journey that I was on the sidelines to watch. 12:31.188 --> 12:35.793 [SPEAKER_01]: And again, you have that battle of, you know, I'm her mom, I have to fix this. 12:36.813 --> 12:40.314 [SPEAKER_01]: because that's our nature right when we're raising our kids and they're in the home. 12:40.754 --> 12:45.495 [SPEAKER_01]: So often we think that our job is to, you know, fix whatever we can. 12:45.535 --> 12:48.836 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want them to be, uh, test struggles in life. 12:49.236 --> 12:52.237 [SPEAKER_01]: Even though those struggles can build their character, it can build their faith. 12:52.437 --> 12:55.838 [SPEAKER_01]: But it's because, you know, we deeply, deeply love and care for them. 12:56.238 --> 13:00.501 [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's no different when your kids grow up to be young adults and leave the nest. 13:00.581 --> 13:11.388 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was a huge wake-up call for me because as I found myself comforting her, and I share this story in the book, I was struggling with the right words. 13:11.608 --> 13:14.791 [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, I was saying what I knew to be true. 13:14.911 --> 13:19.254 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I had knowledge of my daughter was saying, what if I never can have children? 13:19.854 --> 13:39.589 [SPEAKER_01]: And I said, you know, you still have value and you have worth and purpose, even if motherhood is not, is not part of your future, you know, at one point, she said something to the effect of, but you've always told me that marriage and motherhood is something in my future and something that I have to look forward to and something that's important. 13:39.709 --> 13:44.733 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just remember at that point, thinking, where did I get this so wrong? 13:45.493 --> 13:51.299 [SPEAKER_01]: you know that I was struggling myself to believe could she be fulfilled and happy? 13:51.359 --> 13:52.881 [SPEAKER_01]: Could I be fulfilled and happy? 13:53.241 --> 13:54.382 [SPEAKER_01]: Had I never had children? 13:54.783 --> 14:01.850 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a hard, again, another hard question, kind of self-assessment to ask ourselves to see where we stand. 14:02.310 --> 14:06.951 [SPEAKER_01]: in regard to, you know, do you have this in the right order? 14:07.311 --> 14:25.116 [SPEAKER_01]: And so that was, you know, those two things were probably the biggest wake-up calls for me turning point moments, if you will, where I began to kind of slowly dig through the scriptures, rethink, you know, the things I'd been taught in the past and just untangle, detangle, however you want to word it, 14:28.377 --> 14:42.863 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's so much to unpack there and I want to get to all of it, but as you're speaking, I was thinking like there, the reason it's so important to teach our kids at a young age, the importance of their identity of Christ in Christ, like who they are in Jesus and 14:43.503 --> 14:49.707 [SPEAKER_00]: their job as ambassadors of him and just speaking that truth to them is because all of us find our identity somewhere else. 14:50.047 --> 15:02.354 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like, like, you're speaking, I'm thinking, like, if you're asking my husband what he does and who he is, one of the first things he would say is, I work at US Bank in foreign exchange, you know, like, that's his job and it's been a job for a decade. 15:02.714 --> 15:03.655 [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's what he would say. 15:03.675 --> 15:10.359 [SPEAKER_00]: But if that job goes away, then he loses so much, even if you see it all the time with people who lose jobs, like all of a sudden they're like, wait, 15:12.680 --> 15:13.480 [SPEAKER_00]: Or if you were tired. 15:14.301 --> 15:17.322 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, or tired means hard because I was on your like, wait, what do I do? 15:17.683 --> 15:18.443 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, who am I? 15:18.663 --> 15:31.609 [SPEAKER_00]: And then when you put that, if you be motherhood as your job specifically, if you're a state and home mom, and that has been your job forever, like we're so personally tied to it because there are kids and they're the greatest thing in the whole time world that we love them so much. 15:31.669 --> 15:34.371 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just so overwhelming when you think about it. 15:34.431 --> 15:36.632 [SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, yes, no, I need to have a solid. 15:37.012 --> 15:40.075 [SPEAKER_00]: identity in Jesus and not in the things that I do. 15:40.155 --> 15:44.479 [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever that is, motherhood or a career or a hobby or that's right. 15:44.539 --> 15:52.407 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually refer to it in the chapter on identity as adopting an empty nest perspective. 15:52.547 --> 15:54.609 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you spoke about retirement. 15:54.649 --> 15:55.730 [SPEAKER_01]: That's another huge hurdle. 15:55.810 --> 15:57.571 [SPEAKER_01]: My husband just recently retired. 15:57.671 --> 16:08.319 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to be retired sort of, but I still, I don't, I certainly don't go to the pace that I used to, but I'm still writing and I'm doing a tiny bit of speaking, but we're getting there. 16:08.339 --> 16:11.922 [SPEAKER_01]: I have a whole lot more margin than I used to, which is great. 16:12.223 --> 16:14.124 [SPEAKER_01]: That is, you're exactly right. 16:14.164 --> 16:15.025 [SPEAKER_01]: That is an adjustment. 16:15.065 --> 16:21.150 [SPEAKER_01]: And for many people who enter into those retirement years, it's a struggle and they oftentimes will go back to work. 16:21.710 --> 16:28.440 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because they can't relate to this new pattern, this new normal, but now that will not be my husband. 16:28.460 --> 16:33.868 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he just got back from playing pickle ball, he's been fishing, he's been, I'm actually a little jealous. 16:33.928 --> 16:36.291 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, okay, he's doing retirement right. 16:36.652 --> 16:45.554 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, but I used to always say he was an attorney oil and gas and he worked very hard, you know, for many, many years and I used to always say that he was one of these. 16:45.594 --> 16:55.696 [SPEAKER_01]: You can either work to live or you can live to work and he always worked to live and so I think it's easier when you start to enter into those empty nest years that retirement years. 16:55.816 --> 17:01.778 [SPEAKER_01]: If you've had more of that mindset of I don't want that to be my identity because you don't want to work forever. 17:02.038 --> 17:02.178 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 17:02.418 --> 17:11.785 [SPEAKER_01]: unless you absolutely have to, you know, but yeah, it really to have that emptiness perspective for a mom, your age and stage would be, you know, to keep in mind. 17:12.005 --> 17:17.650 [SPEAKER_01]: As you said so beautifully a minute ago, you are not when you think about the amount of time you're going to have your children. 17:18.010 --> 17:25.716 [SPEAKER_01]: It is not on the timeline going to be as much time God willing your marriage remains intact that you're married. 17:25.936 --> 17:26.657 [SPEAKER_01]: The years that 17:27.377 --> 17:37.861 [SPEAKER_01]: that come after you've raised your last child and launched them, you have many years that you will more years that you will spend without them in those empty nest years. 17:38.181 --> 17:39.962 [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that's really, really hard. 17:40.002 --> 17:46.104 [SPEAKER_01]: It was hard for me to grasp that when I was at your stage because their needs are so-ever present. 17:46.304 --> 17:49.606 [SPEAKER_01]: You are oftentimes meeting yourself coming and going. 17:49.706 --> 17:53.327 [SPEAKER_01]: You're, I mean, the drill you're in now is all you know right now. 17:53.707 --> 17:59.232 [SPEAKER_01]: So it is hard to imagine a day that will come when that last one leaves. 17:59.833 --> 18:07.339 [SPEAKER_01]: And you don't want to pick on my generation here for a second because another reason I wrote this book is that it just absolutely makes me crazy. 18:07.700 --> 18:18.109 [SPEAKER_01]: When women in my generation and I can pick on the women that a step above me as well will tell the mothers, you know, your age and stage, you know, 18:18.669 --> 18:20.191 [SPEAKER_01]: enjoy it while you can. 18:20.351 --> 18:22.214 [SPEAKER_01]: These are the best years of your life. 18:22.274 --> 18:23.475 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's just the house. 18:23.535 --> 18:32.486 [SPEAKER_01]: It was so quiet and so depressing, and it's so, or however they word it, you know, or enjoy those messes, enjoy all the, I'm like, that it's not helpful. 18:32.767 --> 18:33.668 [SPEAKER_01]: And there is not helpful. 18:33.968 --> 18:35.130 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really not helpful. 18:35.450 --> 18:36.471 [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't helpful to me. 18:37.252 --> 18:51.568 [SPEAKER_01]: And what does that really tell us about, you know, and I feel like this is more common actually in the church, that we really have sent this message to Raman, that you're at the most enjoyable part of your life, and then after this, everything is downhill, okay? 18:51.969 --> 18:52.669 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just gonna be blunt. 18:52.750 --> 18:53.711 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really not though. 18:54.091 --> 18:57.433 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I am having the absolute time of my life. 18:57.533 --> 19:03.776 [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm here to tell you right now that the empty nest years are the reward for all the hard work that you're doing. 19:04.136 --> 19:14.781 [SPEAKER_01]: Now, that means that you need to keep this empty nest perspective and not become so child centric that you really struggle when they leave to discover your identity, your purpose. 19:15.481 --> 19:16.582 [SPEAKER_01]: How about your marriage? 19:16.602 --> 19:17.783 [SPEAKER_01]: There's that layer as well. 19:18.143 --> 19:38.100 [SPEAKER_01]: If you are not investing in your marriage, because the truth is, you are going to, again, unless there's separation or divorce, if you remain married to the same person, you're going to end up spending more years in that relationship than you will as a mother actively parent to your children. 19:38.360 --> 19:39.521 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a reality of it. 19:39.901 --> 19:41.082 [SPEAKER_01]: So why wouldn't we? 19:41.122 --> 19:43.524 [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we know the priority scripture tells the 19:45.013 --> 19:57.496 [SPEAKER_01]: your children and yet oftentimes when I would do mother daughter events I would have I would talk on this subject and I would get pushed back at times after the message and some moms would be you know I'm sorry but 19:58.543 --> 20:09.091 [SPEAKER_01]: We, you know, instead of anniversary trips, we just do one trip a year and we take the children or, you know, we figure a day will come when those kids will be gone and we'll have time for each other. 20:10.031 --> 20:17.917 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think good luck with that because honestly, by then when that last child leaves, if you have poured all of your energy. 20:18.377 --> 20:26.741 [SPEAKER_01]: all of your time into parenting your children and meanwhile your marriage has been neglected, then you're in for a world of heart. 20:26.801 --> 20:39.506 [SPEAKER_01]: You're either forced to get to know that person again and figure out common interest or it's not coincidence that that is one of the fastest growing divorce categories now are empty nesters. 20:40.206 --> 20:50.955 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I would really encourage moms listening to make sure you have it in the right priority or haven't the right order of prioritizing your marriage above your children. 20:50.975 --> 20:53.077 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I shared the story. 20:53.097 --> 21:05.487 [SPEAKER_01]: I've shared it so often speaking and I'm sure I probably did in the book of marriage counseling that my husband and I got early on like probably around the 7 or 8 year mark and we ended up in a counselor's office and the counselor told us that I 21:09.750 --> 21:12.492 [SPEAKER_01]: And we had done exactly what I'm cautioning mothers not to do. 21:12.852 --> 21:18.396 [SPEAKER_01]: We had completely our lives were consumed around parenting and our role as parents. 21:18.996 --> 21:27.982 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we land in this counselor's office and the counselor gives us this challenge to, you know, don't let two weeks go by without going on a date. 21:28.143 --> 21:35.668 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you don't have it in the budget, if you don't have any money, go lay a blanket out on the front lawn and watch the stars and talk and catch up and do whatever. 21:35.728 --> 21:37.529 [SPEAKER_01]: There's things you can do that don't cost money. 21:38.169 --> 21:47.753 [SPEAKER_01]: But the point being, get to know your spouse again, go back to square one if figure out what drew you to each other in your common interest. 21:47.953 --> 21:53.836 [SPEAKER_01]: But the biggest challenge of all that was when the counselor said, and do not talk about your children. 21:53.856 --> 21:54.336 [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm. 21:54.456 --> 21:56.017 [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm going to tell you that was really. 21:56.417 --> 22:16.362 [SPEAKER_01]: hard the first few times that we practice this, you know, this, this, this, this, date challenge to go out and then catch ourselves and be okay, yeah, can we, we can't talk about this or that and potty training or anything, you know, we're going to just talk about our relationship and things that we have going on that are apart from our children. 22:16.782 --> 22:20.163 [SPEAKER_01]: And I am here to tell you that investment has paid off. 22:20.943 --> 22:22.945 [SPEAKER_01]: big time in my life because here I am. 22:23.005 --> 22:24.046 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on the other side of it. 22:24.447 --> 22:31.293 [SPEAKER_01]: I've been an empty nest for 14 years and counting and my husband is my very best friend. 22:31.634 --> 22:40.683 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can honestly say that when our last child left, even though we were both adjusting to that kind of sudden abrupt, all of a sudden we have more margin. 22:41.543 --> 22:43.164 [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, what do we do? 22:43.624 --> 22:49.527 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't really have a problem with, okay, you know, we picking up with common interests, we've been going on dates. 22:49.887 --> 22:52.228 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, that we started planning trips. 22:52.568 --> 22:53.989 [SPEAKER_01]: We were getting together with friends. 22:54.049 --> 22:57.790 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this wasn't something that part was not difficult for us. 22:58.150 --> 23:01.812 [SPEAKER_01]: The adjusting just overall to, you know, anytime you have a new normal, 23:02.112 --> 23:04.214 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going to take a, there's a learning curve. 23:04.554 --> 23:08.197 [SPEAKER_01]: But as far as like our relationship was in a healthy place. 23:08.837 --> 23:10.579 [SPEAKER_01]: So that made it easier. 23:10.679 --> 23:15.282 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're also there to support each other and talk openly about this is hard. 23:15.382 --> 23:17.804 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is harder than it looks when your last child leaves. 23:17.924 --> 23:23.929 [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and then be a support to one another, which in turn grows a stronger bond in your marriage. 23:24.695 --> 23:46.523 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think there's such a balance in all of it and it's so hard to work through in this culture where we see everything on social media and there are 1 million parenting books and parenting podcasts and you know all the information that's coming at us and we do feel so much guilt when we're not doing everything we think we're supposed to be to be the perfect parent. 23:47.500 --> 24:11.417 [SPEAKER_00]: this spring my husband was coaching both our sons travel baseball teams and it was just that craziest thing we have ever done like we were like never again that was too much I mean they were like weekends where it was like 15 games he was coaching yeah weekend and we just never see each other yeah and or like why are you coaching both teams and we're like well they both wanted us to and we felt like he had to and then someone looked at us and just was like what would it look like 24:16.800 --> 24:34.191 [SPEAKER_00]: even go to every game and we were like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait 24:34.331 --> 24:53.202 [SPEAKER_01]: I went up that stuff and I want to back cue up on that one because I wish we had learned that a lot sooner and we did come to a point where we had a big come to Jesus meeting with our children, we were overwhelmed, we were all meeting ourselves coming and going and we hit a similar point where we just were like, what would that look like? 24:53.582 --> 25:00.666 [SPEAKER_01]: And so we tell our kids from this point forward, we are not going to allow y'all to do more than one activity per season per child. 25:00.886 --> 25:01.487 [SPEAKER_01]: and that was hard. 25:01.527 --> 25:05.930 [SPEAKER_01]: That meant taking our kids out of things they were already even signed up for. 25:06.290 --> 25:09.493 [SPEAKER_01]: But I want to tell you, my only regret and that was that we didn't do it sooner. 25:09.713 --> 25:12.395 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like it just did help strengthen our marriage. 25:13.356 --> 25:16.038 [SPEAKER_01]: We had a thanks for a calmer at home. 25:16.078 --> 25:18.060 [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't snapping at each other. 25:18.440 --> 25:27.468 [SPEAKER_01]: In the reality of it is your kids are going to grow up and they're going to look back and you're going to be sitting around and Thanksgiving table sometime trying to remember 25:27.768 --> 25:30.390 [SPEAKER_01]: Were you in soccer that year, or did you tell? 25:30.731 --> 25:32.352 [SPEAKER_01]: Was that the year that we took off? 25:32.392 --> 25:34.894 [SPEAKER_01]: Was that you're not going to remember any of this? 25:35.235 --> 25:40.499 [SPEAKER_01]: You're especially not going to remember all the birthday parties for kids that you went to. 25:40.519 --> 25:43.882 [SPEAKER_01]: That really, I mean, don't matter in the scheme of eternity. 25:43.922 --> 25:45.824 [SPEAKER_01]: I tell my own children this all the time. 25:46.244 --> 25:47.665 [SPEAKER_01]: If I could go back and do it differently, 25:48.506 --> 25:51.948 [SPEAKER_01]: I would be more selfish with my family time on the weekends. 25:52.288 --> 26:04.375 [SPEAKER_01]: I would not feel like we were obligated to take you to all the things, all the sports, all the activities, all the birthday parties, all the extracurriculars, sign you up for all the camps in the summer. 26:04.395 --> 26:07.257 [SPEAKER_01]: And I wouldn't feel a lick of guilt about it. 26:07.597 --> 26:12.320 [SPEAKER_01]: Because you will struggle to remember who did what, when, where, how, did it matter? 26:12.660 --> 26:14.061 [SPEAKER_01]: No, it didn't, you know. 26:17.423 --> 26:20.065 [SPEAKER_01]: Instead of on the other side, re-hit the wall and you burn out. 26:20.105 --> 26:20.285 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 26:20.886 --> 26:22.026 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we've hit the wall. 26:22.046 --> 26:23.427 [SPEAKER_00]: We burned down one at a time. 26:23.487 --> 26:24.989 [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, like, like, like, like, like constant. 26:25.309 --> 26:28.991 [SPEAKER_00]: And then you just kind of readjust and you're like, wait, you just isn't working for our family. 26:29.011 --> 26:30.072 [SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do next? 26:30.152 --> 26:32.114 [SPEAKER_00]: And no one has it figured out perfectly. 26:32.554 --> 26:49.737 [SPEAKER_01]: if someone I love that you said it that way because that's also healthy to have that mindset because I think oftentimes moms we get trapped in this kind of why I don't know ever learn but how come this never sticks really parenting is about recalibrating. 26:50.097 --> 26:52.758 [SPEAKER_01]: what may work for one child may not work for another. 26:53.038 --> 27:00.581 [SPEAKER_01]: You may discover that having one child, we had one child in public school and two children in Christian private school at one point. 27:00.801 --> 27:06.943 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know, you shuffle around, you figure out what works and you extend grace to yourself. 27:07.043 --> 27:17.307 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I have a whole chapter on the whole guilt complex that moms fall into and oftentimes just as you said, it is a result of feeling like you're always coming up short. 27:17.707 --> 27:22.409 [SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, your kids, or they don't have all the things, they don't get to do all the things. 27:22.849 --> 27:26.050 [SPEAKER_01]: You haven't figured out all the things that you need to. 27:26.270 --> 27:39.134 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a lie, really, that are culture pedals, that I think that we see oftentimes on social media, that there's this sort of idealistic idea of, well, this is the only right way. 27:39.554 --> 27:58.182 [SPEAKER_01]: to parent your children and these children are blessed to have these things and I share this kind of comical just some snippets from things that parents 100 years ago used to do and it's just absolutely horrifying when you read this that what was acceptable then but you know what those parents they were reading parenting books. 27:58.562 --> 28:07.626 [SPEAKER_01]: and they were doing things that so-called experts were telling them was the way to parent your children like discipline your child by tying your child to an armchair. 28:07.646 --> 28:09.167 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not lying. 28:09.207 --> 28:10.328 [SPEAKER_01]: This was crazy stuff. 28:11.888 --> 28:15.150 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, these are, I'm sure, hopefully they look back and well, what in the world? 28:15.610 --> 28:19.811 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're all going to look back on some levels and go, I really regret that. 28:20.331 --> 28:33.755 [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the things that I value that I have with my adult children, my husband as well, is that we really, we really modeled when we were raising our children, and this will give moms freedom to be able to say, you know, I'm not going to get this all right. 28:34.495 --> 28:36.396 [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to make mistakes along the way. 28:36.457 --> 28:42.801 [SPEAKER_01]: It's really, really comforting and freeing to be able to say out loud, even to your children that I'm not perfect. 28:43.401 --> 28:55.210 [SPEAKER_01]: He who began a good work in me is perfecting it to the day of Christ Jesus just as he's doing that in your life, as you say to your children, he's doing that with your marriage, and so he's working through those things in your life, and why not tell our children that? 28:55.570 --> 29:00.816 [SPEAKER_01]: We want our children to know that we don't have an expectation of perfection on them as well. 29:01.156 --> 29:05.180 [SPEAKER_01]: And so in this home, in this family, we're free to make mistakes. 29:05.541 --> 29:13.269 [SPEAKER_01]: And part of that is going to be recalibrating, repenting when we need to repent and correcting what needs to be corrected and moving on. 29:13.930 --> 29:14.050 [SPEAKER_01]: And 29:14.510 --> 29:34.134 [SPEAKER_01]: extending grace to one another most importantly to ourselves because I think that's where a lot of moms struggle with this idea of, you know, guilt in that chapter I talk about trading your guilt complex for a grace complex and that's going to take a lot of practice and intentionality, but it's worth it in the end. 29:34.534 --> 29:49.456 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and so one of the things I encourage moms to do in the book is, you know, when you're in the cycle of a guilt complex is to really work with intentionality on trading your guilt complex for a grace complex and I and I go into some, you know, 29:49.596 --> 29:51.597 [SPEAKER_01]: examples and ways to do that. 29:51.697 --> 29:57.059 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's second other habit that we knew habits are hard to form, right? 29:57.079 --> 29:58.700 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they you hear different. 29:58.900 --> 30:12.425 [SPEAKER_01]: Some people say it takes 30 days, other 60 days plus or whatever, but as you catch yourself when you begin to feel guilt, because most of the guilt that mom's feel is going to be a type of false guilt that God really never intended you to carry. 30:13.026 --> 30:13.766 [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I 30:16.647 --> 30:24.578 [SPEAKER_01]: solution to the problem in a way mom's can work on the whole guilt complex by instead trading it for this idea of a grace complex. 30:24.798 --> 30:25.559 [SPEAKER_00]: That's so good. 30:25.659 --> 30:30.306 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like even just thinking that like how like just reminding myself, we feel really guilty. 30:30.326 --> 30:31.387 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel really bad to that. 30:31.822 --> 30:32.663 [SPEAKER_00]: How can I trade that? 30:32.763 --> 30:35.066 [SPEAKER_00]: Even just starting there is so good. 30:35.426 --> 30:38.850 [SPEAKER_00]: And we all need it because I think I felt guilty five times this morning. 30:39.410 --> 30:39.951 [SPEAKER_00]: That's normal. 30:40.611 --> 30:42.113 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, oh, that is so good. 30:42.233 --> 30:43.955 [SPEAKER_00]: All of it is just such good wisdom. 30:43.995 --> 30:46.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell us where we can connect with you? 30:46.177 --> 30:48.160 [SPEAKER_00]: And then also where we can find your book? 30:48.780 --> 30:52.302 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so everyone can have obvious great resources because I think we'll want to know. 30:52.422 --> 30:52.702 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 30:52.842 --> 30:53.022 [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. 30:53.062 --> 30:57.004 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can always find information on my website, vickycourtney.com. 30:57.104 --> 30:59.946 [SPEAKER_01]: So, vicky, the SCKI, Courtney.com. 31:00.126 --> 31:01.126 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't really blog there. 31:01.166 --> 31:06.469 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm over on the sub-stack now and just started blogging again, which I'm loving, or it's really more of a news letter. 31:07.269 --> 31:11.531 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and then more active on Facebook, not active really on Twitter. 31:11.831 --> 31:12.672 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm on Instagram as 31:13.212 --> 31:22.181 [SPEAKER_01]: So, and then the book is available, I think probably at any Christian book store, and of course, you know, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and more of your, some of your local big box stores. 31:22.381 --> 31:22.601 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 31:22.781 --> 31:29.328 [SPEAKER_00]: And then just kind of to wrap us up, like, what was your final encouragement be for the mom who's listening, who's feeling overwhelmed. 31:29.588 --> 31:32.610 [SPEAKER_00]: feeling guilty, feeling like, well, I don't even know where to start. 31:32.710 --> 31:36.332 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what would your final encouragement be for their just like, first baby step? 31:36.512 --> 31:45.997 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was about to say, just take the pressure off yourself to, you know, kind of be there right now, you know, and know that, again, we go back to that grace, right? 31:46.117 --> 31:51.720 [SPEAKER_01]: To extend grace to yourself, to have the courage to go ahead and take, as you said. 31:51.840 --> 31:57.143 [SPEAKER_01]: So beautifully, that baby step in the right direction, and to not be afraid to say, I am worth 31:58.283 --> 32:11.528 [SPEAKER_01]: that God values me as his daughter, he loves me, every bit as much as he loves my children, and he would want me to be in a place where I understand, my identity, my worth, my purpose. 32:11.869 --> 32:19.412 [SPEAKER_01]: And so do it for yourself and do it to build that bond with the Lord, your relationship with the Lord, and you just can't go wrong. 32:19.592 --> 32:19.832 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. 32:20.432 --> 32:21.233 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much. 32:21.293 --> 32:25.938 [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for being here with me and just sharing so much of your heart with my audience and young moms. 32:25.998 --> 32:35.468 [SPEAKER_00]: I just love when other moms have been before us so gone before us just share what they've learned so that we can we can learn to because I'm a real I need a lot need a lot of it. 32:35.808 --> 32:39.590 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope my generation will really step up in being cheerleaders for your generation. 32:39.690 --> 32:47.035 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think it is a very hard time to raise kids with all that you're up against and you need all the support you can get. 32:47.215 --> 32:50.497 [SPEAKER_01]: So if moms, my age and stage are listening, come on. 32:50.537 --> 32:51.117 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's help these. 32:51.157 --> 32:51.798 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's help them up. 32:51.898 --> 32:53.239 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being that support. 32:53.399 --> 32:56.100 [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate you and I think all my listeners will too. 32:56.140 --> 32:57.081 [SPEAKER_00]: So thank you so much. 32:57.121 --> 32:58.402 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for having me. 33:01.311 --> 33:05.152 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the Christian parenting podcast. 33:05.192 --> 33:13.655 [SPEAKER_00]: Be sure to check out show notes for links to Vicki's new book, Motherhood is not your highest calling, and all the other resources that will encourage you in your parenting journey. 33:14.335 --> 33:17.657 [SPEAKER_00]: If this episode blessed you, we'd love for you to subscribe and leave a review. 33:17.737 --> 33:21.498 [SPEAKER_00]: It helps other people to find this podcast and get their encouragement too. 33:22.465 --> 33:26.647 [SPEAKER_00]: In the meantime, may God bless you this week, may you feel confident in your identity in him. 33:27.027 --> 33:35.272 [SPEAKER_00]: Remember that your worth is found in Christ alone, and may his grace replace guilt with peace, and may your home be filled with love and joy this week.