[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy chat podcast episode 500.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the Therapy Chat podcast with Laura Regan.
[SPEAKER_00]: LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan.
[SPEAKER_00]: LCSWC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Laura Regan, and today I'm bringing you something different for episode 500.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we have a special milestone episode, we have to do something different, makes things up a little bit.
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of an interview today, I'm going to be taking you behind the scenes of an interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: one of the interviews that I love the most and one of the interviews that was also the most challenging for me to do, which was my interview with Dr. Janine Fisher at Psychotherapy Networker back in spring 2024.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to tell you about what I was going through at the time when I was doing the interview and all of the reactions that I was wrestling with from my wounded parts, my abandoned
[SPEAKER_01]: and there was a beautiful thing that happened in this story that was so unexpected for my system, and I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just felt like I wanted to share about it and kind of deconstruct what was happening through the lens of trauma and attachment and parts work in dissociation and attachments.
[SPEAKER_01]: I already said attachment.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can, like, think about it that way for yourself when things like this happen, maybe you could be curious about what's going on here, what's just bringing up for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so by the time you hear this, I'm going to be in, uh,
[SPEAKER_01]: far away place from where I live on a somewhat of a spiritual quest you might say.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll tell you about it when I come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually thrilled it's going to involve a lot more parts work in our reflection and I can't wait to share about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll definitely be posting about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: on social media as I go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're not following me on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy Chat pod, that's where I'm at.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I also want to announce that even though I'll be away, I'm going to be opening up information about the
[SPEAKER_01]: upcoming retreat for therapists in Tulum, Mexico in April 2026.
[SPEAKER_01]: You will, if you are a trauma therapist network member, member, you will receive an email about it first and have first chance to sign up.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I'll open it up to the rest of my email list and it's going to be a small retreat, but I plan it often offering a second one in 2026.
[SPEAKER_01]: There as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you miss the first one look for the second one and many more retreats for therapist and for non therapist that are going to be coming up and I'll be talking about very soon.
[SPEAKER_01]: So
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for listening, whether this is the first episode you've ever listened to, or if you've listened to all 500, I'm grateful for you, I'm grateful for every guest who's been on therapy chat for all these years, just feeling so much gratitude and appreciation for all of you, and we're in this light together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's get into all the behind the scenes, all the excitement of the behind the scenes, look in this week's episode.
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the wonderful things about being at therapists is that your colleagues who become friends are wise, caring helpers.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we drop the performance and allow ourselves to be authentic, a relationship's deep in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I experienced the benefit of that in real time last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had an amazing professional opportunity when Pessie asked me to record live interviews at Psychotherapy Network or Symposium in DC.
[SPEAKER_01]: Among other wonderful speakers, I was able to do a live interview with Dr. Ginny and a Fisher.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can watch that interview on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this is the backstory that I haven't publicly shared.
[SPEAKER_01]: While I was interviewing her about shame, I was having a shame attack myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: 30 minutes before my in-person interview with Janine Fisher, I had received news that a close family member was on-life support in New York following a major health crisis.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm human, and this person has been in my life for 30 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, I had a natural human response to this information, which is,
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a trauma response.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first sign of my trauma response was, I didn't really feel any emotion, but I had a desire to push through with the interviews I had scheduled.
[SPEAKER_01]: I reasoned we couldn't leave immediately, we needed to make arrangements to board pets, cancel plans, book accommodations, etc.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wanted to at least get through that day's interviews before going in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had made a commitment to Pessy to deliver five interviews and I was determined to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Janine Fisher was number five, the last interview of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's someone I admire so much and she's been on the podcast before.
[SPEAKER_01]: Internally, I was falling apart, and great distress, and wanting to get to New York to say goodbye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, sternally, part of me was really trying to keep it together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Janina came into the room for the interview, minutes after receiving her well-deserved lifetime achievement award at the networker.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a consummate professional and part of me couldn't believe my good fortune to meet her in person and do this interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me was excited and another part was nervous and the loudest part was one that was afraid I would not be able to keep it together for a conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Younger traumatized parts of me were collapsing while other manager parts were working over time to determine to do what I came to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: operating with the belief that I don't have time to fall apart right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: As always, Janina was kind and gracious.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her presence helped co-regulate me.
[SPEAKER_01]: We started the interview, but suddenly our mics failed.
[SPEAKER_01]: They wouldn't work at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there are a peach out of basically a one person operation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have helped from my wonderful producer Pete in post production, but the recording, video setup, audio setup, and everything else is all on me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here I was out of my element at the Omni Shoram hotel in Washington, DC, rather than my home studio.
[SPEAKER_01]: While I pretended to be calm, internally I was panicking, and young parts of me were running around going, oh no, we're doomed!
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me was freezing up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I called in a new friend, Jerry, whom I had met through Deb Dana at dinner the previous evening.
[SPEAKER_01]: He'd mentioned that he specialized in audio visual work, and when I reached out, he immediately came running to help us and fix the mics.
[SPEAKER_01]: He and Janina knew each other, too, which I found comforting.
[SPEAKER_01]: They chatted and bantered while Jerry worked to get the mics working again, and I freaked out from the inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Jerry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I admit it was a growth edge for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being unable to solve a problem on my own and being forced to ask for help in the moment, while I was crumbling inside, all in the presence of someone who parts of me wanted to impress.
[SPEAKER_01]: Parts of me can feel ashamed being witnessed in my most vulnerable moments.
[SPEAKER_01]: Success!
[SPEAKER_01]: Jerry worked so magic.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mike's now working we restarted the interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ironically, the interview was about the role of shame in helping us to survive during traumatic experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me was keenly aware of how ashamed I felt in that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I was trying to push that part away while trying to think of good questions to ask.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted a rich conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyone who's listening to my podcast knows it's unscripted, it's just an organic conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was struggling to access any logical or wise parts of my brain in my trauma response.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me felt like a total fraud asking Janina Fisher about shame when I was so filled with shame at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was all I could think about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like it was so obvious that internally I was flailing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was excruciating.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I did my best to say grounded.
[SPEAKER_01]: 20 minutes into our conversation,
[SPEAKER_01]: honked out for good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Janina brightly said, well, I guess we're finished.
[SPEAKER_01]: Making me laugh with her attitude of acceptance and contrast to my trying to force something to happen when all indications were, it was over.
[SPEAKER_01]: The universe definitely has a sense of humor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to say, no, not yet!
[SPEAKER_01]: But I knew the writing was on the wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was right.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were done.
[SPEAKER_01]: The mics must have needed charging, and there was no way to do that quickly and salvage the interview.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me was so relieved.
[SPEAKER_01]: Glad I was off duty.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yet, other parts of me were really disappointed that the full interview I wanted to do was impossible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of me felt so ashamed that I'd failed.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was something so important to me, and I couldn't do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we still did it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just shorter than I wanted it to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the shame wouldn't even allow me to see, we did do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could only see my perceived failure.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to admit, what we did get to in 20 minutes was a really important trauma therapy nugget that has helped me and my clients immensely since then.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just keep going back to the part where she said, shame helped you survive.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shame allowed you to submit.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the part that that was so poignant.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shame allowed you to submit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because the metaphor, the parallel here, is that I was having a trauma response and I was not allowing myself to just submit to that that reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was what was happening and was not what I wanted.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not exactly what she was referring to, but it just feels like there was, there was a parallel happening at the same time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe she could sense that, but here's a good part.
[SPEAKER_01]: the really good part.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where it really got interesting for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Interview finished Janina cheerfully, left the room, and I sat there, dazed, while support began trickling in.
[SPEAKER_01]: A friend and respects a colleague who's a TTN member, Jen.
[SPEAKER_01]: who had been helping me on and off throughout the day, came to the door and held space for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I started to allow myself to fall apart, really there was no stopping it.
[SPEAKER_01]: My system knew the day's interviews were over and it was time to let it go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Jen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Linda Tye, another friend and colleague whom I deeply respect, came in.
[SPEAKER_01]: She immediately saw that I was frozen and collapsing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Nearly wordlessly, but with consent, she started offering me somatic support.
[SPEAKER_01]: She encouraged me to go ahead and let go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I trust her, and I knew I wasn't okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my work was done for the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was able to allow myself to be held by another, instead of trying to manage on my own.
[SPEAKER_01]: as was so familiar for my younger self.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found myself lying on the floor with Linda pressing her hands against my shoulders and legs as the tremoring began and the tears flooded out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me was so appreciative parts of me were wondering what in the heck was happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe my trauma therapist parts, some intellectual parts were saying, this is a somatic release, this is what needs to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: and other parts of going, but why, but why am I having this response to this?
[SPEAKER_01]: But why, but why, but why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Many parts of me were in disbelief that I was receiving care and holding in such a terrible moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: While I feared someone I loved was going to die before I'd be able to sink a buy, some of my youngest parts were so grateful to receive the kindness and sink into the support, a stubborn manager part who has helped me survive to this point and I thank her for that, yes, I'm thanking my part out loud here on the podcast, but in that moment this part said through my tears,
[SPEAKER_01]: This is too much, this is going on too long.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to take up too much of your time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Linda assured me, she would stay as long as it took.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like a burden.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was taking too long, and I didn't want to feel all of this, but it was flooding out with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was coming either way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Linda assured me there was no rush.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jen quietly witnessed and held space.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to need help, but my friends surrounded me with support anyway.
[SPEAKER_01]: When the tremoring and tears finally subsided, I was depleted.
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to eat and be in a space with other supportive people.
[SPEAKER_01]: Linda invited me to join a group she was dining with.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had a reservation for a large party, but there wasn't enough room at the table for one more.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you know Linda, this is how she is.
[SPEAKER_01]: She insisted on sitting with me alone at an adjacent table and set a parting ways to join her group.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was still dazed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt very exposed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we just sat there while I complained how I was taking up too much of her time and attention and keeping her from other connections and friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: She nurtured me, helping me find nourishment, while speaking with me normally and very gently, I felt so out of control, vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like everyone could see.
[SPEAKER_01]: that I was not okay and for some reason that felt so unsafe being with a trusted friend who understood and did not believe that I was too much or a burden or that the way I felt wasn't right was just the medicine I needed in that moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Linda.
[SPEAKER_01]: We then connected with another group, and I was nurtured more by other therapists, including Anne Kelly and Sue Marriott from Therapist Uncensored, Therapy Podcasting Friends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just being held by other caring nervous systems helped me be with what I was feeling and just allow me to receive.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a new experience for the young parts of me that what they know is if you're scared or if you're afraid of losing someone, you have to deal with that on your own.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't ready to go home and support my husband who himself was in shock.
[SPEAKER_01]: because I still need a support.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I talked and we agreed that I would stay one more night at the hotel to try and do what I could the next day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had more interview schedule.
[SPEAKER_01]: Before I would come home and then we'd prepare to go to New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have to give him credit.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's so supportive and he really cares about my dreams.
[SPEAKER_01]: As much as I do, check if you'll the same way about him, feel a lot of gratitude for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Since he was closer to the situation than I was, and he was still encouraging me to do what I needed to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when he comes down to it, I just want to be clear, can action matters more than anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: more than work.
[SPEAKER_01]: When someone's on life support, you go.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the way I do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Getting there at midnight or 2 a.m.
[SPEAKER_01]: wasn't necessarily what needed to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: It made more sense to go when, you know, the situation was a little bit more stabilized.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the patient that we love was more stabilized.
[SPEAKER_01]: That next day I was scheduled to interview Deb Dana and Lindsay Gibson.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were the last two interviews out of all the ones I had scheduled and they were gracious when I canceled our interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized it was not very fine to myself to try to push through any more.
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead, I slept in, got food with a kind group of people, Linda again, her friend Dan,
[SPEAKER_01]: I spent the day just hanging out in the company of these supportive, kind, and caring therapists.
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed to pack up all my stuff since I wasn't going to be doing any more interviews.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I walked into the room where we had been recording, I just felt so overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't even know where to start, and Jerry had so kindly said, if I needed anything else, feel free to reach out to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was so generous with his time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we had just met the night before we had only talked for like five minutes at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll admit, you know, there was a moment where he needed something to, he needed a tripod, and he was going to run to a store and buy one, and I said, I have one.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we helped each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's part of what I'm talking about here is that we help each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not all about one person doing everything for other people and no one doing anything for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: We help each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, thinking about Jerry's kind offer and how helpful he had been the day before, I texted him and said, hey, if you happen to be available, I could really use your help again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just don't know what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to pack up all this stuff and I just feel like numb.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, I'm not doing anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll come help you right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, he came in the room.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just kind of sitting there like,
[SPEAKER_01]: staring at all the wires and boxes and all the stuff I needed to pack up and just didn't know where to begin and he was like, what do you want to do?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I need to back all this up and he's like, okay, you know, when he just started helping me and we just talked again, that nervous system to nervous system experience was so helpful to bringing my system back into a more regulated state.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jerry is part of the Polyvagal Institute.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that at the time, so he's got, he knows how to access that co-regulation.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's got that Polyvagal energy, and it shows.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like so connected and so grateful to him, and all he was doing was just being with me, just being a caring, sensitive,
[SPEAKER_01]: person and sharing his nervous system.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't really need him to help me pack up the stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was more just the not being alone to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we got that done.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was still kind of dazed and I had all my stuff backed up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I put it in the car and then there was a little bit more time before I had planned to leave and I said, well, I want to go see Linda's presentation if I can.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a two-hour talk, and I really only was able to stay for the first hour.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so moving.
[SPEAKER_01]: On the way to her talk, I ran into Lindsey Gibson, who gave me a kind hug.
[SPEAKER_01]: Shane Burkell of the couple's therapist couch.
[SPEAKER_01]: another wonderful hug, a key look, Riley Richardson who has been on the podcast before and has a book coming out soon and Ariel Schwartz.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was actually going to listen to Linda's talk as well and she gave me a gentle hug and it just, I suddenly realized, wow, if you're going to have a breakdown, doing so at a conference with thousands of therapists is probably
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Jen, and Sue, Ariel, Deb, Linda, Lindsay, Shane, Achila, and so many others who were kind to me when I was struggling.
[SPEAKER_01]: They all got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: To them, it was normal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do the same if someone else were going through this, but to me, it was such a new experience for my nervous system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being held so gently when I was in the middle of a trauma, attachment reaction, in pain, right in the moment when it was happening, with people seeing it and helping me instead of being there and not doing anything was such a new experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was ready, I went home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt resource to support my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, he was more directly impacted than me.
[SPEAKER_01]: We made our arrangements to drive to New York the next day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we were able to get up there and say goodbye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fortunately, the person recovered, so I could buy, turned out to be premature, but I always feel like better, better to say it than, you know, I always, because of my lost history and my, probably,
[SPEAKER_01]: decades of living in a state of grief.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always make sure to say my gubiase.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't like to miss the chance to say gubi or tell people I love them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most therapists know regardless of what method or modality you use.
[SPEAKER_01]: Research shows that the real healing happens from the quality of the relationship.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, as humans were wired for connection, it's in our biology, and when things fall apart, we need the support of others.
[SPEAKER_01]: When like me, our early blueprint says it's not safe to count on others to support us.
[SPEAKER_01]: asking for help can be excruciating.
[SPEAKER_01]: But this can hurt us.
[SPEAKER_01]: We often wait till the situation is snowballed quite a bit before we reach out.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what we need as humans and what we need as therapists.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we're the ones giving support.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes we're the ones receiving support.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not superhuman and we don't need to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: Being a therapist is a job, but there's always been a need for people to be witnessed in their pain, to be supported, nurtured, to have the support of other enough nervous systems.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't need to be superhuman if we have the capacity to sit with our own pain.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of our gifts that helps us help our clients.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we spend time connecting and reciprocal relationships with other caring and compassionate human beings, we remember that we're not alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Suffering is part of the shared human experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we're suffering, it means we're human.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a few points I wanted to make in this episode asking for help can be excruciating when you were emotionally or physically neglected or both.
[SPEAKER_01]: that's how I operated for so long.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course not consciously.
[SPEAKER_01]: I operated this way based on unconscious beliefs that I couldn't count on other people.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the blueprint my system was operating from because of my early childhood experiences.
[SPEAKER_01]: People came and went and my needs weren't met consistently and now for me to trust that they would be met consistently in the future.
[SPEAKER_01]: About the shame I described while interviewing Janine Fisher after getting bad news about
[SPEAKER_01]: The trauma reaction I had upon hearing news which made me believe someone I loved was going to die, triggered a felt sense of abandonment and loss for my early years.
[SPEAKER_01]: In order to make that unbearable feeling more bearable, shame washed over me, there was nothing at all to be ashamed about, I didn't do anything wrong and I wasn't going to get in trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot happening for me in this moment I described.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think my desire to push through and mask, dissociate from my trauma reaction was the first layer.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to play it off like I was okay when I wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of me knew I wasn't okay and was judging my desire to escape from that reality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my parts were distracting me from feeling present in the moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And a manager part was determined to show us go on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then my shame parts actually had something to grab onto.
[SPEAKER_01]: Surely I should have been able to prevent this from occurring?
[SPEAKER_01]: Surely if I were a true professional, as I described Janina Fisher earlier, and she is, I would have made sure the mics were working perfectly before I started the interview with her.
[SPEAKER_01]: As if technology always works so you wanted to, as if I have magical powers to control every possible thing that happens at all times,
[SPEAKER_01]: So when something goes wrong, it must be my fault because I didn't prevent it from happening.
[SPEAKER_01]: Clearly that is an illusion we all wish we had that kind of power, then nothing would ever go wrong in our lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's simply an illusion that we have much control over anything that happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: So at this point I felt Janina Fisher who's approval I so deeply wish to have in that moment, could see right through me.
[SPEAKER_01]: it maybe she could.
[SPEAKER_01]: Fear that she would see that I wasn't okay and disapprove of me had me internally collapsing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously I made up the whole part about disapproval.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's from my old blueprint that if I show how I feel, someone will not be happy with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no evidence from Jenny and Fischer herself that she would actually react that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, we're just trying to get through this moment and kind of throwing everything at the wall to see what's sticked.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's stuck?
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to be witnessed in my messy humanity at that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really wanted to do an amazing podcast interview and get the heck out of there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, maybe I don't need to say this, but just because someone's a therapist doesn't mean, they will not have a trauma or grief reaction when something tragic occurs.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one is required to pretend not to be upset when something happens that most of us would experience us being painful.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's painful for that person, that's really all that matters.
[SPEAKER_01]: I eat the podcast is more important than our connections with our loved ones.
[SPEAKER_01]: I try to give myself compassion because honestly, I was in shock and I was trying to find some way to maintain a sense of control.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was going on with normal life as many of you may understand that phrase, whether you call it a manager part or a form of dissociation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also feel it's really important to emphasize the beautiful experience that happened for me after I did finally allow myself to fall apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that I had much of a choice, but I was fighting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so amazing to be met with tenderness when my system expected to be rejected and abandoned.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was weird, and somewhat disorienting, but parts of me drank it up like a hummingbird sips an actor.
[SPEAKER_01]: My system knew attachment laws equals deal with it on your own, don't show your feelings and get over it, you're alone in this.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not what happens this time.
[SPEAKER_01]: People cared about me and took care of me, and not just one person, Linda did a lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: Jen, quietly witnessing and holding space did a lot, but Ann and Sue, Shane, Lindsey, Deb, Ariel, so many people I can't even name, just with a kind word, an expression of care, knowing what was going on because I had let everyone know, you know, just a simple, how are you doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Are you okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: When are you going home?
[SPEAKER_01]: Things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just let me know I was seen and that as a human being I mattered in that moment and I didn't have to just pretend to be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Get emotional even remembering that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't have to ask for anything from them.
[SPEAKER_01]: They just knew to be caring and kind of tender.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was exactly the correct emotional experience my system needed at that time, so I could go home the next day and hold space for my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was closer to the person who was in the hospital than I was, so he needed my support.
[SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't my moment.
[SPEAKER_01]: And after receiving so much care and resourcing from my friends and colleagues, I had plenty to give to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was able to stay grounded through the experience and not approach it with my traumatized parts in the lead.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I shared all of this here today to give a glimpse into how I work with my system of my parts and hope that it might spark your curiosity or give you some information that helps you work with your parts in a different way or be a less alone in your experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: Our world has become highly polarized and divided as we all know.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of lateral violence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm committed to doing my part to bring people together and to help therapists combat isolation.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be human.
[SPEAKER_01]: Find ways to fully express who you are so that you can show up as authentically as possible and give other people permission to do the same through your presence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know many therapists share similar histories to mine, and through years of therapy and group work, I've learned the value in the power and connecting with others for reciprocal, not transactional relationships.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope the next 500 episodes of therapy chat will reflect that increased capacity for connection and for community as we go forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: The next 500, that's amazing to imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: then we'd be talking about a thousand episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whoa, and I'm committed to continuing to create spaces where folks can deepen into embodied presence and continue to send ripples of safety and co-regulation out from their systems wherever they are.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for being a part of therapy chat for listening.
[SPEAKER_01]: if you've been a guest for sharing it with others, subscribing, all the support that you've all given me over the past 10 years and now 500 episodes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that therapy chat has given you something in return and I look forward to all the ways that we can continue working together in the future.
[SPEAKER_00]: Take care.